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London’s palmy potential

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SouthSeaNate
13 hours ago, UK_Palms said:

 

I am basing that off my own climatic recordings in my garden. Measured at 2m above the ground, in the shade. I know the recordings are pretty darn accurate. As mentioned, I am around 30 miles outside of central London. You can see that I am growing a variety of cacti outdoors, year-round, which have flowered naturally. Washingtonia is also thriving here. Robusta, Filibusta and Filifera are all doing well. All 3 types are present in my pictures above. Grown from seed outdoors. No mollycoddling. Just left outside in pots. Most are around 14 months old. Phoenix Canariensis is also thriving here too, as is Dactylifera and Theophrasti. All seed grown outdoors. At 51N. It is undoubtedly the mildest climate in the world at such latitude.

London and the surrounding area pushed 100F several times this year. Heat indexes of 107-111F in places. You can try to discredit the extent of the heat, and the effects of climate change here in recent years, but I experienced it this summer. And last. And I recorded it, meteorologically speaking. Including an overnight low of 30C (86F) in late June. As well as 3 occasions where the London area reached 100F or more. Or are you going to tell me that the screenshots attached are inaccurate and wrong?

If I'm not mistaken, you have left the UK and moved to a Mediterranean island? In which case I can see why you would want to understate, and make out, that the UK climate is rubbish. In order to justify you leaving these shores and heading to the Med. But the fact of the matter is that you aren't living in the southeast of England, or growing palms here. Correct me if wrong, please.

With all due respect your own personal climate recordings are not official & do not meet the required standards. The figures I quoted are from official Met Office weather stations, so comparing your own amateur temperatures is extremely misleading as they are far from accurate.

I am not discrediting the heat that the UK had this summer, but it got to 100F only once in London, that is fact. And the fact that you think you recorded an overnight low of 30C, when the record warmest minimum temperature ever for the UK is 24C, just shows how inaccurate your readings are. So yes I am telling you that the screenshots of those amateur weather stations you attached are very very wrong & inaccurate.

I'm not sure what me moving from the UK to Malta has to do with anything? I still have a house & garden in the UK & I visit frequently, so yes once again you are very wrong as I am still growing palms in the southeast of the UK. And not sure why you would possibly think that by me simply correcting the temperatures that you stated means I want to to make out the UK climate is rubbish. That is really, really bizarre if I'm honest.

And if I'm not mistaken you posted photos of your cacti & palms on the EPS & on there you stated that you bring them under cover on the coldest nights of the winter & here now you are claiming they are left outside, unprotected year round? So forgive me for being slightly confused.

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SouthSeaNate
17 hours ago, Palmsofengland said:

I appreciate the advice, but of course I’ll end up doing it myself and maybe, with the correct siting, I can form a mini jungle in the heart of London. As an aside, many of these palms seem to do well in parts of New Zealand with fairly similar climates to that of London and put on fair amounts of growth with even cooler summer temperatures. For instance, there is a post on the EPS forum at the moment about a Syagrus Romanzoffiana in Christchurch, which would seem to have a significantly less suitable climate throughout the year, and with relatively similar winter maxima (presumably with fairly low maxima in cold snaps as well). Given that Archontophoenix Cunninghamiana and Rhopalostylis also grow in Christchurch, what is it that would enable palms to survive there and not here.

Parts of New Zealand may get similar minimum winter temperatures, but again they have warmer daytime highs. It is the duration of cold that kills many palms, not the absolute minimum temperature recorded. They are also less likely to get snow & are not prone to the very cold winds that the UK can get in the winter from the near continent.

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UK_Palms
3 hours ago, SouthSeaNate said:

With all due respect your own personal climate recordings are not official & do not meet the required standards. The figures I quoted are from official Met Office weather stations, so comparing your own amateur temperatures is extremely misleading as they are far from accurate.

I am not discrediting the heat that the UK had this summer, but it got to 100F only once in London, that is fact. And the fact that you think you recorded an overnight low of 30C, when the record warmest minimum temperature ever for the UK is 24C, just shows how inaccurate your readings are. So yes I am telling you that the screenshots of those amateur weather stations you attached are very very wrong & inaccurate.

I'm not sure what me moving from the UK to Malta has to do with anything? I still have a house & garden in the UK & I visit frequently, so yes once again you are very wrong as I am still growing palms in the southeast of the UK. And not sure why you would possibly think that by me simply correcting the temperatures that you stated means I want to to make out the UK climate is rubbish. That is really, really bizarre if I'm honest.

And if I'm not mistaken you posted photos of your cacti & palms on the EPS & on there you stated that you bring them under cover on the coldest nights of the winter & here now you are claiming they are left outside, unprotected year round? So forgive me for being slightly confused.

 

Listen mate, straight off the bat you were trying to be an ass and shut me down, implying that the UK climate is poor and not feasible to grow the stuff that I am currently growing. I guess you don't like the idea of me having a bunch of Washingtonia, Phoenix's & cacti at my latitude, or you're sceptical about their long term success here. But regardless of that, you can cut the BS and your patronising nonsense. 

Also, you may be referencing official Met Office recordings, but the problem with that is that there is a very limited number of these 'official' Met Office stations in the UK. Something like 200 or so across the whole of England, Scotland, Wales & NI. For instance, there isn't a single Met office station within a 10 mile radius of my house. So it's ironic that you want to talk about accuracy, when these 'official' recordings are so few and far between, likely missing many temperature records in multiple places.

I live in the hottest part of the country during summer (Guildford/Godalming area), but the Met doesn't take any recordings in that area. An area that has over 200,000 people present. So how are you supposed to get a proper scope of temperature and records across the country from that? Which is exactly why it is important for us 'amateurs' as you put it, to do the recordings and report it too. Even if it isn't 'official'. You can try and discredit the temperatures I have recorded, or those that other verified weather enthusiasts have recorded, but it doesn't change the fact that temperatures above 100F are being recorded across the southeast. In fact it seems like you are in the mindset of... unless the Met Office says something happened, or record something, then it never happened. A very narrow minded approach. 

And regarding the cacti, if you read my thread on the EPS detailing my experience growing the cacti outdoors, I clearly state that I have been testing the waters with them over the past 2 years and not wanting to take too many risks. For instance, I brought them indoors on 2-3 nights last winter when the temperature dropped to -4C. But I left them outdoors through numerous frosts, down to -3C, and during extended wet spells. And so far, no damage. Over the course of the past 18 months, they have only come indoors for 2-3 nights when I was playing it safe, as I didn't want to take the risk. But I am more confident now that they will take -5C at least this winter coming, which was the absolute lowest temperature last winter.

I had to play it safe on those nights as I was still testing the waters with them. But besides those 2-3 nights, I haven't done anything else to protect or mollycoddle them. They've experienced frost, rain, hail, high humidity, strong winds etc. Yet they're growing really well. So pipe down unless you want to upload some pics of your own UK outdoor grown cacti...? And don't even think about posting cacti pics from Malta!

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John in Andalucia

OK, so you two need to take a step back.. :blink:

I see both sides here, and you're both contentious. I don't agree that London hit 100F only once this year. Reason being, that I don't support the logic of official recorded temperatures eclipsing the fact that heat pockets exist which go unmentioned.

Likewise, the idea of heat pockets reaching 111F - almost 44C? That's not geographically possible.

Maybe that's why official recorded temperatures exist, some might say. 

Disagreements are fine, but where we live and what we grow shouldn't be seen as an attempt to discredit one and other.

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PalmsNC
1 hour ago, UK_Palms said:

 

Listen mate, straight off the bat you were trying to be an ass and shut me down, implying that the UK climate is poor and not feasible to grow the stuff that I am currently growing. I guess you don't like the idea of me having a bunch of Washingtonia, Phoenix's & cacti at my latitude, or you're sceptical about their long term success here. But regardless of that, you can cut the BS and your patronising nonsense. 

Also, you may be referencing official Met Office recordings, but the problem with that is that there is a very limited number of these 'official' Met Office stations in the UK. Something like 200 or so across the whole of England, Scotland, Wales & NI. For instance, there isn't a single Met office station within a 10 mile radius of my house. So it's ironic that you want to talk about accuracy, when these 'official' recordings are so few and far between, likely missing many temperature records in multiple places.

I live in the hottest part of the country during summer (Guildford/Godalming area), but the Met doesn't take any recordings in that area. An area that has over 200,000 people present. So how are you supposed to get a proper scope of temperature and records across the country from that? Which is exactly why it is important for us 'amateurs' as you put it, to do the recordings and report it too. Even if it isn't 'official'. You can try and discredit the temperatures I have recorded, or those that other verified weather enthusiasts have recorded, but it doesn't change the fact that temperatures above 100F are being recorded across the southeast. In fact it seems like you are in the mindset of... unless the Met Office says something happened, or record something, then it never happened. A very narrow minded approach. 

And regarding the cacti, if you read my thread on the EPS detailing my experience growing the cacti outdoors, I clearly state that I have been testing the waters with them over the past 2 years and not wanting to take too many risks. For instance, I brought them indoors on 2-3 nights last winter when the temperature dropped to -4C. But I left them outdoors through numerous frosts, down to -3C, and during extended wet spells. And so far, no damage. Over the course of the past 18 months, they have only come indoors for 2-3 nights when I was playing it safe, as I didn't want to take the risk. But I am more confident now that they will take -5C at least this winter coming, which was the absolute lowest temperature last winter.

I had to play it safe on those nights as I was still testing the waters with them. But besides those 2-3 nights, I haven't done anything else to protect or mollycoddle them. They've experienced frost, rain, hail, high humidity, strong winds etc. Yet they're growing really well. So pipe down unless you want to upload some pics of your own UK outdoor grown cacti...? And don't even think about posting cacti pics from Malta!

You posted on another forum about how you have to protect almost all the aforementioned palms . Everything you say is a load of hogwash. London barely records but a handful of 30c days a year on average and only in July on average where the mean max is 86 exact . 

 

Statistics blow all your nonsense out the water I know seaside Nate in person and he is a former climatologist if I’m not mistaken so back off.

 

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PalmsNC
38 minutes ago, John in Andalucia said:

OK, so you two need to take a step back.. :blink:

I see both sides here, and you're both contentious. I don't agree that London hit 100F only once this year. Reason being, that I don't support the logic of official recorded temperatures eclipsing the fact that heat pockets exist which go unmentioned.

Likewise, the idea of heat pockets reaching 111F - almost 44C? That's not geographically possible.

Maybe that's why official recorded temperatures exist, some might say. 

Disagreements are fine, but where we live and what we grow shouldn't be seen as an attempt to discredit one and other.

Then it also stands to reason that most of London has never broken 100 because of the rarity and the existence of cooler spots .

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John in Andalucia
35 minutes ago, PalmsNC said:

Then it also stands to reason that most of London has never broken 100 because of the rarity and the existence of cooler spots .

I'm struggling to decipher what you're saying, but it almost sounds plausible. 

 

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Albey
On 9/24/2019 at 6:48 AM, Palmsofengland said:

Hi all,

I have long been fascinated by urban heat islands and how they extend the range of plants and palms that people in a particular area can grow. As London is my hometown it seems right to use the collective knowledge of the members to identify the types of plants that might grow here, but I would be really interested to hear about any other unusual plants that are being grown, with the aid of a heat island, around the globe.

The climate in central London is fairly mild and according to this weather centre, it has not dropped below -3c (26-27f) in the 17 years that it records have been taken here. I know that duration of cold and other factors come into plant hardiness, but in an even more sheltered (possibly south-facing) microclimate with overhead cover I have come up with the following list of potential plants, in addition to Jubaea, Butia, Phoenix Canariensis, Trachycarpus and Washies, which are already known to do very well in central areas.

List:

Acanthophoenix crinita

caryota maxima ‘himalaya’

phoenix rupicola

Phoenix reclinata 

phoenix sylvestris

chamedorea radicalis

chamaedorea hooperiana

chamaedorea microspadix

archontophoenix cunninghamiana

howea Forsteriana

howea belmoreana

hedyscepe Canterburyana

rhopalostylis Sapida

ceroxylon quindiuense

ceroxylon parvifrons 

ravenea glauca

prestoea acuminata

euterpe edulis

arenga engleri

parajubaea tvt 

parajubaea cocoides

 Brahea edulis

beccariophoenix alfredii

 chambeyronia macrocarpa

kentiopsis oliviformis

Chamaedorea plumosa

syagrus romanzoffiana ‘Santa catarina’

trachycatpus latisectus

mule palm

dypsis baronii

orianopsis appendiculata

livistona australis

lepidorrachis mooreana

ravenea rivularis 

Phoenix roebelenii 

geonoma undata 

I’d be fascinated to know what people think of this list(i.e. no-goers or possible additions) from a collector’s perspective, as this is obviously not an climate that will enable all these species to flourish.

96E1A94A-1E32-404A-B67B-A1FC02359C33.png

Try these from your list - if you want to experiment and have some fun.

caryota maxima ‘himalaya’

chamedorea radicalis

chamaedorea hooperiana

chamaedorea microspadix

archontophoenix cunninghamiana

howea Forsteriana

howea belmoreana

rhopalostylis Sapida

ceroxylon quindiuense

ceroxylon parvifrons 

parajubaea tvt 

Brahea edulis

syagrus romanzoffiana ‘Santa catarina’

trachycatpus latisectus

mule palm

dypsis baronii

livistona australis

 

 

 

 

Edited by Albey
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UK_Palms
1 hour ago, PalmsNC said:

You posted on another forum about how you have to protect almost all the aforementioned palms . Everything you say is a load of hogwash. London barely records but a handful of 30c days a year on average and only in July on average where the mean max is 86 exact . 

 

Statistics blow all your nonsense out the water I know seaside Nate in person and he is a former climatologist if I’m not mistaken so back off.

 

Okay then, that's why I leave my potted Phoenix Canariensis and Dactylifera outdoors all year then here. As well as young Washingtonia. Those palms must be defying logic if they are sailing through winter in the southeast of England and thriving in my climate. But apparently I have no idea what I am talking about and need to shut up.

I get that this Nate guy is your friend, but as someone who actually lives on the outskirts of the London metropolitan area, I think I can speak about the surrounding area, the palms being grown around here and the temperatures being recorded. Of which I have provided sufficient sources to back up my claims. The issue is that Nate is trying to downplay it all. Again, we are talking about someone who has traded the UK for a sunny, Mediterranean island in Malta, even if he still owns a property in the UK. How much of the year does he actually spend here, and how biased is he towards a climate that he traded for a true Mediterranean zone? Genuine questions...? I know numerous people who have moved to the south of Spain, Portugal or France who routinely slate the UK climate, to further justify them leaving, which is why I have my reservations about this guy's comments. 

Just out of curiosity, what part of England is Nate even from? 

1 hour ago, PalmsNC said:

Then it also stands to reason that most of London has never broken 100 because of the rarity and the existence of cooler spots .

I'm sorry mate, but you have no idea what you are talking about when it comes to this. You are based in North Carolina on the other side of the Atlantic. I'm not trying to be harsh, but I am not even in the heatspot of central London (just outside the suburbs) and I have still recorded countless highs of 100-101F in recent years. Pretty much every station in the London area was showing highs of 100F+ on July 23rd and 25th of this year. I have included screenshots on previous page. So at the bare minimum, that is 2 days in 2019 alone that hit 100F. Not to mention the day in June which clocked 100F in multiple places, which makes 3 days this year that reached 100F in London. I actually recorded 4 days of 100F or above here in my location this year, including one day of 103F. But again you are choosing to side with Nate's bias, when he doesn't even live here most of the year.

Strange that someone in North Carolina would try to lecture me on my own climate on the outskirts of London...

 

2 hours ago, John in Andalucia said:

Likewise, the idea of heat pockets reaching 111F - almost 44C? That's not geographically possible.

I was referring to heat indexes, which I specified in the comment in question. And as mentioned in my previous comments, I live in the Guildford area. So this is my vicinity where a heat index of 111F was showing. I personally recorded a high of 103F on this day, as well as a heat index of 109F in my own garden at 5 feet above ground, in the shade.

But apparently all these recordings are nonsense according to a guy in North Carolina... 

 

IMG_0994.jpg

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RJ

Weather does not equate to climate, climate doesn't equate to weather. 

Anything that happens outside my window on a day to day basis has essentially no measurable effect on global climate.  There is nothing happening outside my window that hasn't happened in the past and will happen in the future. 

Edited by RJ
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greysrigging

The subject of weather records, particularly heat records, can really stir us up..... 
I have had an interest in all things weather since childhood, and I'm one of those ( sad ? lol ) individuals who likes to read old climate and weather stats.
No scientific training, merely an observer....
It always astounds me here in in Australia ( and I'm sure its the same in the UK, the States or wherever ) the belief people have in back yard recordings, or worse still, the thermometer in the car. As opposed to official readings in BOM or Met scientific and calibrated devices.
Now the WMO standard measuring structure is called a Stevenson Screen, with the box at 1.2m or 4' off the ground, slatted/louvered walls to allow for air flow, and painted white so as not to attract solar radiated heat. Also has siting requirements  re distance from walls, trees etc.
stevenson.jpg.0f4eed26cff1787518a8c707dae2f4af.jpg67871546_2832009640149120_8515108908719669248_n.jpg.695d20a94acb578700a32ed75ff53ff9.jpg
This one is from an abandoned construction site near Roebourne in Outback Western Australia. Would have seen temps approaching 50c ( 122f ) methinks.
49521056_2478975025452585_2852034262239019008_n.jpg.4e21f117eea8ff40d656f7a318f1b6e1.jpg
Every summer in Australia people post up / claim inflated temperature readings ie "we get to 50c every summer in Wagga Wagga or Woop Woop....." Well, it might with the K-Mart thermometer under the verandah, or the Hyundai car thermometer, but its a long way from official calibrated instruments.
Even the expensively priced home units ie Davis , tend to read a bit high on extreme days.
Many old heat records in Australia ( and for that matter in the US and Middle East ) are no longer recognised by the World Meteorological Organisation due to exposure to non standard instrumentation.

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GottmitAlex
7 minutes ago, greysrigging said:

The subject of weather records, particularly heat records, can really stir us up..... 
I have had an interest in all things weather since childhood, and I'm one of those ( sad ? lol ) individuals who likes to read old climate and weather stats.
No scientific training, merely an observer....
It always astounds me here in in Australia ( and I'm sure its the same in the UK, the States or wherever ) the belief people have in back yard recordings, or worse still, the thermometer in the car. As opposed to official readings in BOM or Met scientific and calibrated devices.
Now the WMO standard measuring structure is called a Stevenson Screen, with the box at 1.2m or 4' off the ground, slatted/louvered walls to allow for air flow, and painted white so as not to attract solar radiated heat. Also has siting requirements  re distance from walls, trees etc.
stevenson.jpg.0f4eed26cff1787518a8c707dae2f4af.jpg67871546_2832009640149120_8515108908719669248_n.jpg.695d20a94acb578700a32ed75ff53ff9.jpg
This one is from an abandoned construction site near Roebourne in Outback Western Australia. Would have seen temps approaching 50c ( 122f ) methinks.
49521056_2478975025452585_2852034262239019008_n.jpg.4e21f117eea8ff40d656f7a318f1b6e1.jpg
Every summer in Australia people post up / claim inflated temperature readings ie "we get to 50c every summer in Wagga Wagga or Woop Woop....." Well, it might with the K-Mart thermometer under the verandah, or the Hyundai car thermometer, but its a long way from official calibrated instruments.
Even the expensively priced home units ie Davis , tend to read a bit high on extreme days.
Many old heat records in Australia ( and for that matter in the US and Middle East ) are no longer recognised by the World Meteorological Organisation due to exposure to non standard instrumentation.

Yeah, well I suppose any exposed thermometer will produce exaggerated readings.  The bare minimum for a thermometer to work is being under shade.

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greysrigging
45 minutes ago, GottmitAlex said:

Yeah, well I suppose any exposed thermometer will produce exaggerated readings.  The bare minimum for a thermometer to work is being under shade.

The bare minimum for temperatures to be recognised officially is that they are measured in one of these screens using standardised calibrated instrumentation.... anything else still measures the temp, and is indicative of heat or cold but that's all. Want the real temps ? Access the Weather Bureau site for their data...
In any case, a 100f (+37.8c ) in London and surrounding countryside is still hot !
Back on topic some..... Perhaps the gloomy weather, cloudiness, cold and damp of midwinter and lack of sunshine hours would severely curtail the survivability of some of the palms on the list. As noted, even in Melbourne, substantially warmer than London, some can and do struggle.                              
MET max temp records UK...
 

Weather extremes

The tables show the national weather records. To ensure consistency, these weather records are only given for stations with standard instruments and exposure. Although some records have been broken by non-standard stations, these are not accepted as official records for this reason.
 

Highest daily maximum temperature records

District Temperature (°C) Date Location
Scotland N 32.2 1 September 1906 Gordon Castle (Morayshire)
Scotland E 32.9 9 August 2003 Greycrook (Scottish Borders)
Scotland W 32.8 2 July 1908 Dumfries (Dumfries & Galloway)
Scotland W 32.8 20 July 1901 Dumfries (Dumfries & Galloway)
England E & NE 36.3 25 July 2019 Cranwell (Lincolnshire)
England NW 34.6 3 August 1990 Nantwich (Cheshire)
Wales N 35.2 2 August 1990 Hawarden Bridge (Flintshire)
Midlands 37.1 3 August 1990 Cheltenham (Gloucestershire)
East Anglia 38.7 25 July 2019 Cambridge Botanic Garden
England SW 35.4 3 August 1990 Saunton Sands (Devon)
Wales S 34.6 3 August 1990 Crossway (Gwent)
Wales S 34.6 19 July 2006 Gogerddan (Ceredigion)
England SE & Central S 38.5 10 August 2003 Faversham (Kent)
 
 
Edited by greysrigging
addition to post.
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Stelios

https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/58553-trescos-abbey-gardens-uk/&do=findComment&comment=873352

Nice rhopalostylis sapida and jubaea in Trescos Abbey gardens UK. London might be a bit cooler in the winter than this place, but is also drier according to some info I found. London has warmer summers too, so in the right microclimate why not to try some palms.

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Palmsofengland

I think that I’ll start with Albey’s amended list + phoenix roebelenii and Rupicola, as I have seen a quite large Roebelenii growing in Central London in the past and going through winters untouched and there is a Dutch nursery who were advertising the hardiness of rupicola in their climate( supposedly down to -5C). I have also seen Howea growing (potted), but outside day and night year round and doing well, and this would strike me as the one of the most tender palms on the amended list, so I feel confident that I might have some success, even if, as Nate says, it might only last until the next record cold event here, or I can always try a bit of protection on the worst nights. On this subject, do people think that our record cold over the last 17years, apparently being 26f, presumably combined with a rather low daytime maximum, would have taken out a Howea Forsteriana or Belmoreana?

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John in Andalucia
8 hours ago, UK_Palms said:

I was referring to heat indexes, which I specified in the comment in question. And as mentioned in my previous comments, I live in the Guildford area. So this is my vicinity where a heat index of 111F was showing. I personally recorded a high of 103F on this day, as well as a heat index of 109F in my own garden at 5 feet above ground, in the shade.

Sorry, I didn't read it clearly.

In a debate on rising temperatures, and heat pockets expanding the potential for palms grown outdoors, I wholly agree in pushing the boundaries. 

The mention of heat indices however, is probably a moot point when you consider that, "heat indices have little relationship to the direct effects of temperature on plants."

I've also learnt that only a fraction of the light energy stored by a plant's leaves is used for photosynthesis, which in turn raises leaf temperature, enabling leaf temperature to often exceed air temperature.

The ratio of sunshine hours to low temperature duration would seem to be more critical to survivability. 

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UK_Palms
18 hours ago, greysrigging said:

The bare minimum for temperatures to be recognised officially is that they are measured in one of these screens using standardised calibrated instrumentation.... anything else still measures the temp, and is indicative of heat or cold but that's all. Want the real temps ? Access the Weather Bureau site for their data...
In any case, a 100f (+37.8c ) in London and surrounding countryside is still hot !
Back on topic some..... Perhaps the gloomy weather, cloudiness, cold and damp of midwinter and lack of sunshine hours would severely curtail the survivability of some of the palms on the list. As noted, even in Melbourne, substantially warmer than London, some can and do struggle.                              
MET max temp records UK...
 

Weather extremes

The tables show the national weather records. To ensure consistency, these weather records are only given for stations with standard instruments and exposure. Although some records have been broken by non-standard stations, these are not accepted as official records for this reason.
 

Highest daily maximum temperature records

District Temperature (°C) Date Location
Scotland N 32.2 1 September 1906 Gordon Castle (Morayshire)
Scotland E 32.9 9 August 2003 Greycrook (Scottish Borders)
Scotland W 32.8 2 July 1908 Dumfries (Dumfries & Galloway)
Scotland W 32.8 20 July 1901 Dumfries (Dumfries & Galloway)
England E & NE 36.3 25 July 2019 Cranwell (Lincolnshire)
England NW 34.6 3 August 1990 Nantwich (Cheshire)
Wales N 35.2 2 August 1990 Hawarden Bridge (Flintshire)
Midlands 37.1 3 August 1990 Cheltenham (Gloucestershire)
East Anglia 38.7 25 July 2019 Cambridge Botanic Garden
England SW 35.4 3 August 1990 Saunton Sands (Devon)
Wales S 34.6 3 August 1990 Crossway (Gwent)
Wales S 34.6 19 July 2006 Gogerddan (Ceredigion)
England SE & Central S 38.5 10 August 2003 Faversham (Kent)
 
 

Just a heads up that even the Met Office (which Nate sites religiously) announced that the all-time temperature record was broken via one of their official stations on July 25th this year, which now stands at 38.7C, recorded in Cambridge. So the 38.5C recorded in Faversham in Kent is no longer the 'official' record high. It is now 38.7C for England, officially. 

I also stand by my own recording of 39.8C on that same day in Guildford, England. Unfortunately there are no Met Office stations within a 10 mile radius of me however, as to verify that claim...

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sipalms

I have an idea. Y'all save the fights and plant out a tropical oasis in your back yard full of tender subtropical palms and come back here in 5 years and tell us how it's going.

Edited by sipalms
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greysrigging

An interesting write up of the record breaking UK heatwave in July 2019.
Speaking for related events in Australia, during this type of scenario, with extreme heat, it is generally found that the temps recorded are 'spatially coherent' ie there are no huge anomalies between nearby  and close stations. 
Nearly all of the major heat records in Australia occur at near coastal locations in the WA Pilbara ( Mardie, 50.5c Feb 1998 ) or in the Lake Eyre Basin ( Oodnadatta 50.7c Jan 1960 ). It is accepted that there is a 'lapse rate' of approx 1c per 100m of altitude. Much of inland Australia has a modest altitude of 300m to 600m asl which slightly modifies summer extremes.
https://www.metoffice.gov.uk/binaries/content/assets/metofficegovuk/pdf/weather/learn-about/uk-past-events/interesting/2019/2019_007_july_heatwave.pdf

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B87

London is, most unfortunately, a cold, dark, and damp oceanic climate. Even here in Central London I see frequent subfreezing temperatures and snow during the winter. We normally get a few subfreezing highs each year which even the most hardy palms don’t like. I struggle mightily trying to maintain a semblance of a subtropical garden in this city. Summers tend to be lacklustre as well with cool nights and lukewarm days.

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petiole10

It seems that I live in a country that experiences none of the variants/extremes of temperature and weather (hot or cold or plagues of locusts etc|)  that others who live here say they experience.  

Coastal mini climates tend to reduce the diurnal ranges seen inland and that is very much the case here. So frosts are milder and less common in winter (occasionally almost completely non existent) and the highest maximum temperatures are subject to sea breezes in summer.  However sunshine amounts are probably overall greater.

The sensible (if boring to some) way ahead in my opinion is to stick with the colder hardy varieties and you don't go far wrong at all. Apart from not needlessly wanting to risk the lives of palms the wrong side of marginal, I simply wouldn't want to risk money I can't  afford in the first place. But most of all, its really not worth arguing about and/or trying to exaggerate to make a point :)

Suffice to say,  CIDP,  Chamaerops, Trachycarpus, Butia are commonly seen around here and quite a few of them are to generous sizes over a number of years and still going strong.

Washingtonia, and Blue Hesper palms also seem little troubled IMBY with some protection from wetness and chilly temperatures in winter.  Though as these are in pots I can always bring them in if any especially cold weather was to appear.

Rather then frost and snow, and low temperatures - the biggest hazard close to the sea is the windy conditions.  Even on a very warm spring, summer or autumn day,  there is often a brisk breeze blowing here and winter storms from the Atlantic bring some high winds which can damage the fronds of Washingtonia for example especially.

I have a Howea, Pygmy Date and a Syragus which flourish outdoors for a minimum of 3/4 months and them come inside before the nights get too cool.  That is the extent of my own less hardy 'experiment' and which is much more about preservation and enjoyment than pushing boundaries.  Each to their own of course though.

On 9/27/2019 at 3:23 PM, SouthSeaNate said:

And the fact that you think you recorded an overnight low of 30C

Wow, that would be a first!    Summer night temperatures, after hot days can be close to, say,  21/22C overnight with reasonable enough frequency in heatwaves, even close to the coast with the sea effects - but a temperature much higher than that would surely have to have some artificial superimposed component to it. Even accounting for what can happen in micro climates with slow heat release from buildings etc after a hot day :)

 

Edited by petiole10

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UK_Palms
8 hours ago, B87 said:

London is, most unfortunately, a cold, dark, and damp oceanic climate. Even here in Central London I see frequent subfreezing temperatures and snow during the winter. We normally get a few subfreezing highs each year which even the most hardy palms don’t like. I struggle mightily trying to maintain a semblance of a subtropical garden in this city. Summers tend to be lacklustre as well with cool nights and lukewarm days.

That's just not true. I'm not sure why you are trying to overstate how cold it gets in London. As if you are trying to make a point that the climate is crap. You are definitely overstating it to play into the stereotype of London being cold, wet, overcast, no sun etc.

If I'm not mistaken, it didn't drop below 28F last winter in London and there were only around 10 frosts in total. And tell me, how many days of snow did you get as well? I had zero days with snow here, and I am outside the London metropolitan zone and urban heat island. Pretty sure London had 0 days with snow as well. My lowest daily high temperature was 41F as well. So again, no days failed to get above freezing. 

As for the the summer, well it wasn't the best one we've had but it was certainly warm still with several days reaching 100F, or getting within a degree of it. And summer 2018 was a record breaker in its own right. We had a 10 week drought without a drop of rain between mid May - early August 2018. As well as 8 weeks of 85F+ weather and a number of 95F days. I lost a potted Phoenix Dactylifera due to the heat and drought, as I didn't water it for 10 days. As I have mentioned previously, July 2018 had an average high of 85F (29C). It was a long hot summer. 

You say that the "most hardy palms don't like" our climate, when Trachycarpus, Chamaerops, Sabal, Butia, Jubaea etc all thrive here. Not to mention the various Phoenix types and Washingtonia which grow here. There are numerous large specimens about. I even left my two Queens outdoors last winter unprotected. They are growing strong here. And again, I don't even live within London's urban heat island.

I'm not saying that we don't have a bad winter, or a bad summer every couple of years, as we sometimes do... but you are seriously overstating the climatic stereotype associated with London. It's certainly not as cold as you make out. The picture below isn't my own (it belongs to a guy named Barry), but it clearly goes to show London's 'palmy' potential. I mean look at this guy's Washingtonia in a London garden...

217BA83DE8F84004A46B577A2F70E8E8.jpg

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OC2Texaspalmlvr

@UK_Palms If that above pic is truly London then that's not just potential , its happening =) Also if that's a Jubaea then cold wet winters are being overstated. Cause I haven't heard of anyone with a specimen Jubaea here in the gulf coast. Just my 2 cents :interesting: but I want to grow a big @ss Jubaea lol

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UK_Palms
10 minutes ago, OC2Texaspalmlvr said:

@UK_Palms If that above pic is truly London then that's not just potential , its happening =) Also if that's a Jubaea then cold wet winters are being overstated. Cause I haven't heard of anyone with a specimen Jubaea here in the gulf coast. Just my 2 cents :interesting: but I want to grow a big @ss Jubaea lol

Well south London gets around 20 inches of rain a year. In my location, to the southeast of London, near Guildford, I only get around 18 inches of rain a year. Less than many Mediterranean regions in Europe. The rainfall can be inconsistent and unreliable at times, but it is also very light throughout the year, so it really doesn't amount to much. Jubaea don't really have a problem with water pooling or collecting around the base due to the lack of heavy downpours. So drainage isn't too much of a problem here. I'm thinking that, combined with the mild temperatures, allows Jubaea to grow okay here. I mean there are bigger Jubaea specimens present in the south of England than the one shown in that picture. But that might well be the largest UK Washie Filifera/hybrid though, possibly. It's marginally bigger than the Kent specimen. 

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Palmsofengland
1 hour ago, UK_Palms said:

That's just not true. I'm not sure why you are trying to overstate how cold it gets in London. As if you are trying to make a point that the climate is crap. You are definitely overstating it to play into the stereotype of London being cold, wet, overcast, no sun etc.

If I'm not mistaken, it didn't drop below 28F last winter in London and there were only around 10 frosts in total. And tell me, how many days of snow did you get as well? I had zero days with snow here, and I am outside the London metropolitan zone and urban heat island. Pretty sure London had 0 days with snow as well. My lowest daily high temperature was 41F as well. So again, no days failed to get above freezing. 

As for the the summer, well it wasn't the best one we've had but it was certainly warm still with several days reaching 100F, or getting within a degree of it. And summer 2018 was a record breaker in its own right. We had a 10 week drought without a drop of rain between mid May - early August 2018. As well as 8 weeks of 85F+ weather and a number of 95F days. I lost a potted Phoenix Dactylifera due to the heat and drought, as I didn't water it for 10 days. As I have mentioned previously, July 2018 had an average high of 85F (29C). It was a long hot summer. 

You say that the "most hardy palms don't like" our climate, when Trachycarpus, Chamaerops, Sabal, Butia, Jubaea etc all thrive here. Not to mention the various Phoenix types and Washingtonia which grow here. There are numerous large specimens about. I even left my two Queens outdoors last winter unprotected. They are growing strong here. And again, I don't even live within London's urban heat island.

I'm not saying that we don't have a bad winter, or a bad summer every couple of years, as we sometimes do... but you are seriously overstating the climatic stereotype associated with London. It's certainly not as cold as you make out. The picture below isn't my own (it belongs to a guy named Barry), but it clearly goes to show London's 'palmy' potential. I mean look at this guy's Washingtonia in a London garden...

217BA83DE8F84004A46B577A2F70E8E8.jpg

The post of Barry’s garden on the EPS forum also shows that he has queens growing unprotected as well.

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UK_Palms
Just now, Palmsofengland said:

The post of Barry’s garden on the EPS forum also shows that he has queens growing unprotected as well.

Yeah, I noticed that. I also have Queens growing here as well, but I'm not convinced I will get away with not protecting them again this winter. Last winter I got away with it as it was an abnormally mild winter. But I am outside of the urban heat island of London, so it gets colder at night here during winter. I am continuing to test the waters with them and other palms here.

Even if CIDP and Washies can make it long term here now, I don't think Queens will. A step to far for us. But Barry is so far proving that he can do it in London... for now...

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Palmsofengland
1 minute ago, UK_Palms said:

Yeah, I noticed that. I also have Queens growing here as well, but I'm not convinced I will get away with not protecting them again this winter. Last winter I got away with it as it was an abnormally mild winter. But I am outside of the urban heat island of London, so it gets colder at night here during winter. I am continuing to test the waters with them and other palms here.

Even if CIDP and Washies can make it long term here now, I don't think Queens will. A step to far for us. But Barry is so far proving that he can do it in London... for now...

Well it seems Barry has had his out since 2013, meaning they must have survived the Beast from the East last year. I think the main concern with queens in the UK is summer heat, but Barry’s seem to be growing well.

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Palmsofengland

I also forgot to add cold-hardy palms like Brahea Armata and Sabal Palmetto to my original list as palms I know that already do or have the potential to do well in and around London (albeit slow-growing)

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RJ
51 minutes ago, OC2Texaspalmlvr said:

@UK_Palms If that above pic is truly London then that's not just potential , its happening =) Also if that's a Jubaea then cold wet winters are being overstated. Cause I haven't heard of anyone with a specimen Jubaea here in the gulf coast. Just my 2 cents :interesting: but I want to grow a big @ss Jubaea lol

There is a Jubaea about that size in Louisiana, not sure how far from the coast though. Go figure :blink: 

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UK_Palms
38 minutes ago, Palmsofengland said:

Well it seems Barry has had his out since 2013, meaning they must have survived the Beast from the East last year. I think the main concern with queens in the UK is summer heat, but Barry’s seem to be growing well.

I don't think summer heat will be too much of an issue for Queen Palms around London and the southeast. It is by far the hottest part of the country, especially during the summer and we experience lots of hot, sunny 90F+ days during the summer nowadays. I mean there are heatwaves every year with record monthly highs and averages, as well as temperatures pushing 37/38C (100F) at some point in most summers. Pretty much every exotic grows well for me in this location, from May - October, at least.  Winter is always going to be the issue here. Never summer.  

Although there has been a progressive warming trend since the mid 90s that is clearly noticeable. Possibly due to the size of London's urban heat island. Or due to a change in the jet stream pattern, blocking Atlantic fronts from the west and allowing hot Saharan air north during the warmer months. I check our highs against other European and specifically Mediterranean locations, and we are often 5C (10F) hotter than Rome, Madrid or Barcelona on that given day during a heatwave, especially in June & July. So it is by no means cool during summer here. I mean there are always guaranteed hot spells for the southeast, often numerous spells, unlike the western and northern regions of the UK that are world's apart, climatically speaking. They are far cooler and wetter year-round. 

I think it would be the prolonged winter cold that would do Queens in here. As in them having to deal with about 6 months of average highs below 60F and low sunlight intensity. Even if the low rarely, if ever, drops below -3C (26F). But the daytime warm up is just not strong enough, due to the low sun intensity.  So they will be dealing with 35-55F temps for months on end. Even if there is no severe cold involved. 

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OC2Texaspalmlvr
1 hour ago, RJ said:

There is a Jubaea about that size in Louisiana, not sure how far from the coast though. Go figure :blink: 

You know what I have heard of this Jubaea before but have yet to see a pic of it yet =/ who knows maybe its possible

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RJ
1 hour ago, OC2Texaspalmlvr said:

You know what I have heard of this Jubaea before but have yet to see a pic of it yet =/ who knows maybe its possible

Here: 

Fellas' name is Ryan in Monroe LA. 

https://members3.boardhost.com/HardyPalm/msg/1563549544.html

9F390368-FB21-4B1B-B709-5767569D33DE.png

Edited by RJ

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Palmsofengland
1 hour ago, UK_Palms said:

I don't think summer heat will be too much of an issue for Queen Palms around London and the southeast. It is by far the hottest part of the country, especially during the summer and we experience lots of hot, sunny 90F+ days during the summer nowadays. I mean there are heatwaves every year with record monthly highs and averages, as well as temperatures pushing 37/38C (100F) at some point in most summers. Pretty much every exotic grows well for me in this location, from May - October, at least.  Winter is always going to be the issue here. Never summer.  

Although there has been a progressive warming trend since the mid 90s that is clearly noticeable. Possibly due to the size of London's urban heat island. Or due to a change in the jet stream pattern, blocking Atlantic fronts from the west and allowing hot Saharan air north during the warmer months. I check our highs against other European and specifically Mediterranean locations, and we are often 5C (10F) hotter than Rome, Madrid or Barcelona on that given day during a heatwave, especially in June & July. So it is by no means cool during summer here. I mean there are always guaranteed hot spells for the southeast, often numerous spells, unlike the western and northern regions of the UK that are world's apart, climatically speaking. They are far cooler and wetter year-round. 

I think it would be the prolonged winter cold that would do Queens in here. As in them having to deal with about 6 months of average highs below 60F and low sunlight intensity. Even if the low rarely, if ever, drops below -3C (26F). But the daytime warm up is just not strong enough, due to the low sun intensity.  So they will be dealing with 35-55F temps for months on end. Even if there is no severe cold involved. 

I believe Queens are pretty adaptable and cool-tolerant and as long as temperatures don’t really drop below 20f and there is a good length growing season, they should do well. This would be especially true for the Santa Catarina form, which I have had survive not only in Gloucestershire for a couple of years with no protection (little summer heat) but have also survived 16f in the Southwest of France 

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RJ
1 minute ago, Palmsofengland said:

I believe Queens are pretty adaptable and cool-tolerant and as long as temperatures don’t really drop below 20f and there is a good length growing season, they should do well. This would be especially true for the Santa Catarina form, which I have had survive not only in Gloucestershire for a couple of years with no protection (little summer heat) but have also survived 16f in the Southwest of France 

It's unfortunate that these are impossible to source on this side of the pond. 

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petiole10
1 hour ago, UK_Palms said:

 I mean there are heatwaves every year with record monthly highs and averages, as well as temperatures pushing 37/38C (100F) at some point in most summers.

As I tried to suggest above, lost in all the exchanges, some of these assertions are not quit corrent. Microclimates and 'hotspots' will always exist as much as their are cold anomalies in winter, but it isn't true to say that temperatures push 100F at some point in most summers (yet) in this country.  Its certainly true that heatwaves (by UK definition) are exceeding 30C (mid 80'sF) more and more often than they have historically - and in line with the overall greater warming trends. Indeed most summers see this happen.

But it remains the case that 100F was not (reliably) reached anywhere in the UK between 2003 and 2019 beyond measurements probably exposed to superimposed heating sources. which cannot sensibly be considered   Last summer (2018) very frequently saw tempertures into the 80's and sometimes the low to mid 90's but the peak of this summers biggest heatwave, in an overall less hot summer, was not challenged. This is not to say that in coming years, the 100F barrier will not be challenged more often, indeed its quite likely, but there isn't any need to overstate temperatures as a means to justify palm selections anymore as to understate the Uk climate as homogenously dull, cool and wet. as unsuitable for them

The palms pictured above and discussed grow well enough in the right environments, in the UK  and also  do so here where I live on a coastal strip where summer temperatures are modified by the sea lower than in the urban areas closer to London - so there are general factors evident that are making this possible than just record breaking heat which include greater sunshine amounts and lesser frequency of frosts (at least outside of central London where they are least frequent) - and with extremes not playing any part at all.

Generally speaking is it also true that the Mediterranean and its often reported resort temperatures will always be homogenously warmer in winter and hotter in summer than the UK, including the relatively warmer SE region closest to hotter continent. Snapshots of individual days during a more isolated higher temperature anomaly where the UK happens to have a day or two (within a whole season) where temperatures are a little higher does not disguise that.  Plus inland places in the Med regularly enough record temperatures well in excess of 100F and so the comparison with the UK is even more distorted and unequal. Many of the stated locations in the Med are costal - and so do not represent the general temperature anomalies that can be achieved.

The UK remains a temperate climate modified by the Atlantic , even in the SE quadrant. There are plants that thrive in the Med that simply cannot be grown here as it is generally cooler and wetter all year round.. That also includes some palms that grow outdoors in the Med, that are still only suited to outdoors in the summer in the UK - irrespective of the warming trend

 

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B87

The false claims I see on this forum are truly staggering. London, most summers, failes to even reach 32C (90F). Our mean max in the warmest part of the city is 31.5C.  To add insult to injury it’s hopelessly cloudy as well. We make even Seattle look like a magnificiently sunny city. No true subtropical species can thrive here. Sure, some extremely hardy palms can survive and even look good with extensive care but they truly are out of place in our cold damp northern biome.

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PalmsNC
21 minutes ago, B87 said:

The false claims I see on this forum are truly staggering. London, most summers, failes to even reach 32C (90F). Our mean max in the warmest part of the city is 31.5C.  To add insult to injury it’s hopelessly cloudy as well. We make even Seattle look like a magnificiently sunny city. No true subtropical species can thrive here. Sure, some extremely hardy palms can survive and even look good with extensive care but they truly are out of place in our cold damp northern biome.

Thank you for using actual verifiable stats and not some nonsensical made up or extremely doctored fake data... indeed London on average, on its warmest day of the year, doesn't reach 90 in a typical year.  

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PalmsNC
53 minutes ago, petiole10 said:

As I tried to suggest above, lost in all the exchanges, some of these assertions are not quit corrent. Microclimates and 'hotspots' will always exist as much as their are cold anomalies in winter, but it isn't true to say that temperatures push 100F at some point in most summers (yet) in this country.  Its certainly true that heatwaves (by UK definition) are exceeding 30C (mid 80'sF) more and more often than they have historically - and in line with the overall greater warming trends. Indeed most summers see this happen.

But it remains the case that 100F was not (reliably) reached anywhere in the UK between 2003 and 2019 beyond measurements probably exposed to superimposed heating sources. which cannot sensibly be considered   Last summer (2018) very frequently saw tempertures into the 80's and sometimes the low to mid 90's but the peak of this summers biggest heatwave, in an overall less hot summer, was not challenged. This is not to say that in coming years, the 100F barrier will not be challenged more often, indeed its quite likely, but there isn't any need to overstate temperatures as a means to justify palm selections anymore as to understate the Uk climate as homogenously dull, cool and wet. as unsuitable for them

The palms pictured above and discussed grow well enough in the right environments, in the UK  and also  do so here where I live on a coastal strip where summer temperatures are modified by the sea lower than in the urban areas closer to London - so there are general factors evident that are making this possible than just record breaking heat which include greater sunshine amounts and lesser frequency of frosts (at least outside of central London where they are least frequent) - and with extremes not playing any part at all.

Generally speaking is it also true that the Mediterranean and its often reported resort temperatures will always be homogenously warmer in winter and hotter in summer than the UK, including the relatively warmer SE region closest to hotter continent. Snapshots of individual days during a more isolated higher temperature anomaly where the UK happens to have a day or two (within a whole season) where temperatures are a little higher does not disguise that.  Plus inland places in the Med regularly enough record temperatures well in excess of 100F and so the comparison with the UK is even more distorted and unequal. Many of the stated locations in the Med are costal - and so do not represent the general temperature anomalies that can be achieved.

The UK remains a temperate climate modified by the Atlantic , even in the SE quadrant. There are plants that thrive in the Med that simply cannot be grown here as it is generally cooler and wetter all year round.. That also includes some palms that grow outdoors in the Med, that are still only suited to outdoors in the summer in the UK - irrespective of the warming trend

 

Thank you for a well written post! Indeed we shouldn't understate the climate either, certainly its winters are incredibly mild despite its poleward latitude! However, it is certainly not a mischaracterization to describe the UK as a dull, the entire country averages under 2000 sun hours year round with many places far far lower.

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Vic

Many of the palms may survive I’m the very mildest parts but very few with thrive and even fewer will survive to maturity. There are been many that have tried pretty much all in your list over the years and as many have already commented, we just don’t get enough warmth or daylight hours for them to grow well through the winter months. 

 

There has has been a post on the EPS recently (which I strongly suggest you join up for free and have a look) about a guy who has grown a Syagrus romanzoffiana outside for quite a few years in London and it is still alive, but hasn’t put on any significant growth. 

There are lots of interesting palms you can grow in London without experimenting with things that just won’t thrive, but if you do decide to grow all in your list then please report back your findings as I’m sure many will be interested. 

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sipalms

Watch out guys....

UK weather forecast: Britain faces new Beast from the East in what could be one of coldest winters in 30 years

Sunday 8 September 2019 23:00 

Britain is facing a new Beast from the East in what could be one of the coldest winters in 30 years, climate experts say.

Researchers attempting to predict one of the longest-range UK weather forecasts say temperatures will be colder than normal during January and February 2020. The scientists forecast an average temperature of 3.9C for January to February 2020 in central England – which they say is 0.5C below the 1981-2010 average for the same period.

The team, led by Mark Saunders, professor of climate prediction at University College London, wrote in a paper: “This would rank 2020 January-February central England as the coldest winter since January-February 2013.

“It would also rank January-February 2020 as the seventh coldest winter in the last 30 years, and the 23rd coldest winter since 1953.”

...

The coldest winter in three decades could follow closely on the heels of the highest-ever UK temperature, recorded as 38.7C at Cambridge University Botanic Garden on 25 July.

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