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Palmsofengland

London’s palmy potential

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Palmsofengland

Hi all,

I have long been fascinated by urban heat islands and how they extend the range of plants and palms that people in a particular area can grow. As London is my hometown it seems right to use the collective knowledge of the members to identify the types of plants that might grow here, but I would be really interested to hear about any other unusual plants that are being grown, with the aid of a heat island, around the globe.

The climate in central London is fairly mild and according to this weather centre, it has not dropped below -3c (26-27f) in the 17 years that it records have been taken here. I know that duration of cold and other factors come into plant hardiness, but in an even more sheltered (possibly south-facing) microclimate with overhead cover I have come up with the following list of potential plants, in addition to Jubaea, Butia, Phoenix Canariensis, Trachycarpus and Washies, which are already known to do very well in central areas.

List:

Acanthophoenix crinita

caryota maxima ‘himalaya’

phoenix rupicola

Phoenix reclinata 

phoenix sylvestris

chamedorea radicalis

chamaedorea hooperiana

chamaedorea microspadix

archontophoenix cunninghamiana

howea Forsteriana

howea belmoreana

hedyscepe Canterburyana

rhopalostylis Sapida

ceroxylon quindiuense

ceroxylon parvifrons 

ravenea glauca

prestoea acuminata

euterpe edulis

arenga engleri

parajubaea tvt 

parajubaea cocoides

 Brahea edulis

beccariophoenix alfredii

 chambeyronia macrocarpa

kentiopsis oliviformis

Chamaedorea plumosa

syagrus romanzoffiana ‘Santa catarina’

trachycatpus latisectus

mule palm

dypsis baronii

orianopsis appendiculata

livistona australis

lepidorrachis mooreana

ravenea rivularis 

Phoenix roebelenii 

geonoma undata 

I’d be fascinated to know what people think of this list(i.e. no-goers or possible additions) from a collector’s perspective, as this is obviously not an climate that will enable all these species to flourish.

96E1A94A-1E32-404A-B67B-A1FC02359C33.png

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Rickybobby

Crazy climate you have. Too bad you don’t have higher heat units in the summer good luck on your palm growing 

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redbeard917

I recently visited a Central American cloud forest. It was quite cool and foggy, probably about 50deg F, and filled with countless palms, none of which could I identify. I did a very short post on it in which others provided some IDs. I bet there is quite a range of species from such habitats which could be tried. I didn't see any Chamaedoreas on your list but I think some of that genus were there.

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RedRabbit

Isn’t freeze duration a problem there? 

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Palmsofengland
35 minutes ago, RedRabbit said:

Isn’t freeze duration a problem there? 

Absolutely. Whilst it is very unusual to have a day that fails to rise above freezing( about once a decade), we do occasionally get days after freezes at around 5*C (41f). Are there certain plants in this list that would be absolutely unable to tolerate this?

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Pal Meir

Please have a look at the RECORD LOWS, not the average lows are the problem:

1719603140_LondonClimate.thumb.jpg.9f7053ffb21864e4e27d0f25f53c11e6.jpg

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Palmsofengland
38 minutes ago, Pal Meir said:

Please have a look at the RECORD LOWS, not the average lows are the problem:

1719603140_LondonClimate.thumb.jpg.9f7053ffb21864e4e27d0f25f53c11e6.jpg

Whilst I would agree that many of the above palms may not survive for generations, I would expect that some may survive to maturity as these record lows stretch back to 1948 and at a station that receives absolutely none of the benefit of the UHI, being essentially outside the city. I would also note that this station would have been even further from the urban influence in earlier years when these lows may have been recorded, as the city has expanded greatly. Whilst I certainly don’t think 27f is the lowest I might see in my lifetime, according to this central station, it is the lowest in the 17 years that it has been recording, which would enable most of these to reach a mature state, unless duration of cool (or perhaps other members’ experience with any of these palms indicating that they couldn’t withstand this temperature) might see off certain species in this list...

Edited by Palmsofengland

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sipalms

This topic often arises on here and on other forums and is of particular interest to me coming from a similar climate.

Firstly, sunshine hours must also be taken into account - London has around 1400-1600 sunshine hours annually (depending on who you ask). Compare this to most 'palmy' places with annual sunshine hours between 2000-3000. Think of how much extra photosynthesis takes place in these places year round, which not only speeds up growth but makes the palm more healthy overall.

Solar heating is another one. Yes - London gets plenty of daylight hours in the middle of summer which can only be favourable for palm growth, however in mid winter when palms are at their most vulnerable to either sustain immediate damage or slow decline, the weak/cloud covered/watery sun rises at 8am and sets at 3.50pm in London. I remember visiting London for one week exactly around the winter solstice in December 2012 and being amazed at how gloomy and damp it was the entire week. We only saw the sun for a few hours, the very day before we left, and it seemed to be just pushed above the horizon.

I only reference this against my own climate here in Christchurch NZ where we have similar daily highs and lows to London all year round. The only thing I believe that enables some very marginal palms like Nikau/Queen/Bangalow to grow around here is the fact that we really only have dips below zero during periods of high pressure and settled, sunny weather where everything gets basked in sunshine for the following day/s. It is extremely rare to have what we call a black frost, where it clouds over after a frost and there is ice on the ground at midday.

Also, our all time low here in Christchurch in the middle of the so called urban heat island is around -5.5C. So many of the above palms could theoretically survive based on this alone but not in London if they are to be long term.

The other thing that possibly helps here is that the sun is substantially stronger and more potent thanks to a large hole in the ozone layer above New Zealand... but that is another topic for another day...!

Hope this helps. Look forward to further discussions

 

Edited by sipalms
updated some details
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tim_brissy_13
7 hours ago, Palmsofengland said:

Hi all,

I have long been fascinated by urban heat islands and how they extend the range of plants and palms that people in a particular area can grow. As London is my hometown it seems right to use the collective knowledge of the members to identify the types of plants that might grow here, but I would be really interested to hear about any other unusual plants that are being grown, with the aid of a heat island, around the globe.

The climate in central London is fairly mild and according to this weather centre, it has not dropped below -3c (26-27f) in the 17 years that it records have been taken here. I know that duration of cold and other factors come into plant hardiness, but in an even more sheltered (possibly south-facing) microclimate with overhead cover I have come up with the following list of potential plants, in addition to Jubaea, Butia, Phoenix Canariensis, Trachycarpus and Washies, which are already known to do very well in central areas.

List:

Acanthophoenix crinita

caryota maxima ‘himalaya’

phoenix rupicola

Phoenix reclinata 

phoenix sylvestris

chamedorea radicalis

chamaedorea hooperiana

chamaedorea microspadix

archontophoenix cunninghamiana

howea Forsteriana

howea belmoreana

hedyscepe Canterburyana

rhopalostylis Sapida

ceroxylon quindiuense

ceroxylon parvifrons 

ravenea glauca

prestoea acuminata

euterpe edulis

arenga engleri

parajubaea tvt 

parajubaea cocoides

 Brahea edulis

beccariophoenix alfredii

 chambeyronia macrocarpa

kentiopsis oliviformis

Chamaedorea plumosa

syagrus romanzoffiana ‘Santa catarina’

trachycatpus latisectus

mule palm

dypsis baronii

orianopsis appendiculata

livistona australis

lepidorrachis mooreana

ravenea rivularis 

Phoenix roebelenii 

geonoma undata 

I’d be fascinated to know what people think of this list(i.e. no-goers or possible additions) from a collector’s perspective, as this is obviously not an climate that will enable all these species to flourish.

96E1A94A-1E32-404A-B67B-A1FC02359C33.png

Ignoring extreme minimums, there are a number of palms on that list that simply won’t get enough heat to grow in London:

Acanthophoenix, Prestoea, Euterpe, Beccariophoenix, Chambeyronia, Kentiopsis, Ravenea rivularis and probably a lot of the others as well. Even in Melbourne a lot of your list go nearly completely dormant over the cooler months and rely on our summer heat to pick back up again. Some members from Tasmania and South Island NZ may be able to chime in, but London is even more heat deprived with more extreme minimums. 

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Palmsofengland
5 hours ago, tim_brissy_13 said:

Ignoring extreme minimums, there are a number of palms on that list that simply won’t get enough heat to grow in London:

Acanthophoenix, Prestoea, Euterpe, Beccariophoenix, Chambeyronia, Kentiopsis, Ravenea rivularis and probably a lot of the others as well. Even in Melbourne a lot of your list go nearly completely dormant over the cooler months and rely on our summer heat to pick back up again. Some members from Tasmania and South Island NZ may be able to chime in, but London is even more heat deprived with more extreme minimums. 

That’s interesting, as I largely compiled this list taking into account the lack of summer heat and I know of specimens, of the majority of species you just mentioned, that are growing in the heat-deprived Bay Area. In London we’re unlikely to get any rapid growth, but the hope was that some high-altitude palms might withstand the long, cool year.

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HtownPalms

If you have the space and can afford it get seedlings of the palms in your list above and see which ones make it. That's really the only way to know for certain. I am growing a little bit of everything here in hot and rainy Houston. Some specie of palms are struggling with my climate and others love it. I'm sure people in Seattle were told palms wouldn't grow there either and now there are threads about palms in Seattle. If nothing makes it then at least you know for sure. 

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hbernstein

Climate change with it's associated rapid warming effects in the last decade is making long-term low temperature data rubbish, especially in higher latitudes.

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Pal Meir
3 hours ago, hbernstein said:

Climate change with it's associated rapid warming effects in the last decade is making long-term low temperature data rubbish, especially in higher latitudes.

Still calendrical summer (2019-09-17) at 60°50’N: »Winter arrives early in Värmland«

https://sverigesradio.se/sida/artikel.aspx?programid=2054&artikel=7301213

And what about the missing sunspots (22 yr cicle)?

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SouthSeaNate

Most on that list are a no no for growing long term in London, many enthusiasts  have tried almost all in that list over the years. The only ones which I would say have a chance at growing long term are:

Chamaedorea radicalis

Chamaedorea microspadix

Parajubaea T.V.T

Brahea edulis

Trachycarpus latisectus 

Butyagrus (Mule Palm)

Livistona australis 

A few more may be able to grow for a few years but will eventually get taken out by a cold winter (Rhopalostylis & Archontophoenix for example).

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Jim in Los Altos
23 hours ago, Palmsofengland said:

That’s interesting, as I largely compiled this list taking into account the lack of summer heat and I know of specimens, of the majority of species you just mentioned, that are growing in the heat-deprived Bay Area. In London we’re unlikely to get any rapid growth, but the hope was that some high-altitude palms might withstand the long, cool year.

Most of the SF Bay Area is not heat deprived. In fact much of it is downright sweltering hot in the summer. I'm 45 miles south of San Francisco and today's high was 100F (38C) and tomorrow will be the same. Plenty of 90s during the summer and fall and I'm in what is considered one of the cooler areas. The east side of the Bay as well as the north is hotter. Also, the last time the temperature dropped to just below 32F (0C) in my garden was 2007.

Edited by Jim in Los Altos
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Palmsofengland
19 hours ago, SouthSeaNate said:

Most on that list are a no no for growing long term in London, many enthusiasts  have tried almost all in that list over the years. The only ones which I would say have a chance at growing long term are:

Chamaedorea radicalis

Chamaedorea microspadix

Parajubaea T.V.T

Brahea edulis

Trachycarpus latisectus 

Butyagrus (Mule Palm)

Livistona australis 

A few more may be able to grow for a few years but will eventually get taken out by a cold winter (Rhopalostylis & Archontophoenix for example).

Hi Nathan,

I know that conventional wisdom would definitely suggest that you’re correct, but I can’t help but think that particularly the Phoenix species listed and Ceroxylons would stand a very good chance at long-term survival. I know you have experience growing Archontophoenix Cunninghamiana in what, for the UK, is an extremely favourable climate, but I wonder if the similarly mild winters with slightly warmer summers in central London might push it towards long-term in this area. Rhopalostylis and Syagrus romanzoffiana Santa Catarina both also seem like very feasible choices, with such a relatively mild record low and although the Syagrus might have a reputation for not growing particularly during the English summer, is it possible that on a south facing wall on London, it might throw out enough leaves to persist? I only say this because I have one planted in the west of England in a south-facing site that, in this quite mild summer, rebounded nicely back from a state of neglect.

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Palmsofengland
7 hours ago, Jim in Los Altos said:

Most of the SF Bay Area is not heat deprived. In fact much of it is downright sweltering hot in the summer. I'm 45 miles south of San Francisco and today's high was 100F (38C) and tomorrow will be the same. Plenty of 90s during the summer and fall and I'm in what is considered one of the cooler areas. The east side of the Bay as well as the north is hotter. Also, the last time the temperature dropped to just below 32F (0C) in my garden was 2007.

Hi Jim,

You are, of course, correct. To clarify, the list is composed largely of palms that I have seen or heard of growing within San Francisco or Oakland

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Darold Petty

Ha-ha, Louis visited me, the most heat deprived microclimate of all !  :floor:

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John in Andalucia

Interesting debate, which if posed on the EPS forum would I'm sure throw up plenty of 'been there, done that' responses. Do you frequent the EPS website?

I live in Central London and I grow around 50 species of palm seedlings indoors and outdoors, so I'd like to think I'm as optimistic as you.

There is a fabulous, juvenile Washie growing on the Brompton Rd. that would not have been possible a few decades ago, so I'm all for trying, but I think quite a few on your list would simply languish at the seedling or juvenile stage for an eternity - by which point, that one-time, record low winter will have come around. 

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Jim in Los Altos
5 hours ago, Darold Petty said:

Ha-ha, Louis visited me, the most heat deprived microclimate of all !  :floor:

Darold, How many of the palm species on Louis’ original list would you think can grow in your “chilly” part of SF? I know you have many of them but I’m guessing there are some on the list that need more heat and would also object to the occasional freezing temperatures in London that SF doesn’t experience. 

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GottmitAlex

Today I acquired an Archontophoenix cunninghamiana. (Triple, for 26 bucks).

I already separated one. 

Oh, my point is on the back of the label it says it's hardy to 20F......

Here are the pics:

 

20190925_140245-980x2016.jpg

20190925_121425-980x2016.jpg

20190925_140327-980x2016.jpg

20190925_140232-980x2016.jpg

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Jim in Los Altos
4 minutes ago, GottmitAlex said:

Today I acquired an Archontophoenix cunninghamiana. (Triple, for 26 bucks).

I already separated one. 

Oh, my point is on the back of the label it says it's hardy to 20F......

Here are the pics:

 

20190925_140245-980x2016.jpg

20190925_121425-980x2016.jpg

20190925_140327-980x2016.jpg

20190925_140232-980x2016.jpg

Oh my, definitely not hardy to 20F even under canopy. That would fry the bejesus out of an Archy. Frost on their leaves, even at above 32F (0C) Will bronze the horizontal leaves. 

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Matt in OC

HD coconut tags say they are hardy to like 30-something degrees, so definitely take them with a large grain of salt. :P

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Darold Petty
1 hour ago, Jim in Los Altos said:

Darold, How many of the palm species on Louis’ original list would you think can grow in your “chilly” part of SF? I know you have many of them but I’m guessing there are some on the list that need more heat and would also object to the occasional freezing temperatures in London that SF doesn’t experience. 

Right now I have 14 of his listed species,  I have deliberately avoided those that I presume would want more heat, like Phoenix or Brahea.  I did try B. moorei,  but failed with three successive attempts.  This really bummed me out, as I very much desired that palm. :(

  Others I grow that Louis does not mention are Ceroxyon ventricosum, Chamaedorea carchensis (benziei), C. costaricana, C. ernestii-augusta, C. stolonifera, Dyspsis ambositrae, Laccospadix, and Linospadix  monostachyos.

  I should get busy and do an inventory of my current  in-ground species.  Anyone interested in such a list ?

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SouthSeaNate
7 hours ago, Palmsofengland said:

Hi Nathan,

I know that conventional wisdom would definitely suggest that you’re correct, but I can’t help but think that particularly the Phoenix species listed and Ceroxylons would stand a very good chance at long-term survival. I know you have experience growing Archontophoenix Cunninghamiana in what, for the UK, is an extremely favourable climate, but I wonder if the similarly mild winters with slightly warmer summers in central London might push it towards long-term in this area. Rhopalostylis and Syagrus romanzoffiana Santa Catarina both also seem like very feasible choices, with such a relatively mild record low and although the Syagrus might have a reputation for not growing particularly during the English summer, is it possible that on a south facing wall on London, it might throw out enough leaves to persist? I only say this because I have one planted in the west of England in a south-facing site that, in this quite mild summer, rebounded nicely back from a state of neglect.

Well those Phoenix & Ceroxylons have been tried in London & other milder parts of the UK, including the Scilly Isles & they didn't last very long.  Archontophoenix cunninghamiana do not need hot summers, mine grew reasonably fast even on the south coast, the problem is the cold snaps in the UK have very cold daytime highs, it doesn't matter if the minimum temperatures do not drop that low, if they only re-bound to a few degrees above freezing during the day then that is what kills them.  

Rhopalostylis sapida again don't need hot summers, but they can only take a very light frost, they may be able to recover from -4C in California, but not in the UK, again because the daytime temperatures will be much warmer in California after a freeze.

Syagrus romanzoffiana (normal, "litoralis", "Silver Queens" & "Santa Catarina") have also been tried in central London & other milder areas, they survive the winters OK but can end up looking ratty & the summers are not long or hot enough for them to put on enough growth, they may grow a bit more in hotter summers, but they have all eventually faded away after a few years.

I'm not trying to be pessimistic but many people have been growing palms in the UK for decades & have tried just about every palm reputed to have some cold hardiness, I was one of them & spent thousands over the years. I did have some success with more tender species like Archontophoenix cunninghamiana, but they were eventually killed by a cold winter. By all means try the palms on your list, who knows when the next cold winter will strike & you may well have success with some of them even if you just enjoy them for a few years, but just offering you some words of wisdom from someone who has "been there & done that" :greenthumb:

 

Edited by SouthSeaNate
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UK_Palms
On 9/23/2019 at 8:11 PM, Rickybobby said:

Crazy climate you have. Too bad you don’t have higher heat units in the summer good luck on your palm growing 

 

On 9/24/2019 at 3:04 PM, hbernstein said:

Climate change with it's associated rapid warming effects in the last decade is making long-term low temperature data rubbish, especially in higher latitudes.

 

London hit 100F on 3 separate occasions this year. Last year the average high for July was 85F and saw 14 days above 35C. I agree that long-term data is now obsolete almost. Even in regards to rainfall. The entire pattern has changed here. In recent years, we have had droughts during statistically the wettest part of the year, and then record breaking rainfall in what has previously been the driest part of the year. It's like the rainfall pattern has flipped. I only recorded 16.1 inches of rain for 2018. So far in 2019, I have recorded 11.7 inches. It is almost like a cool/mild Mediterranean climate in the southeast of England.

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UK_Palms

I don't even live within the London urban heat area, as I am around 30 miles away from central London. I am right out in the country, in a small village. Nights are often 5F cooler here than in London, due to their urban heat island effect.

I leave my Chamaerops, Phoenix, Washingtonia & cacti outdoors all year-round here, unprotected. Even my Dactylifera stays outdoors unprotected and is growing well, sailing through last winter. And my palms are all young, so in theory even more vulnerable. But if I can get away with that here, central London would have an even bigger edge when it comes to growing palm varieties. I reckon you'd get a Queen through winter these days in London, given that their low was just 28F last winter. 3 days which reached 100F this summer as well. It's a borderline Mediterranean climate in southeast England. Rainfall is inconsistent and fairly low at just 15-20 inches a year. 

Here are some species that are surviving fine outdoors here at lat 51N, with no protection last winter.  Types that I have previously been told "no chance" in regards to growing in the UK...

 

IMG_1374.jpg

IMG_1372.jpg

IMG_1367.jpg

Planter_14.jpg

Planter_10.jpg

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redbeard917
5 hours ago, Darold Petty said:

Right now I have 14 of his listed species,  I have deliberately avoided those that I presume would want more heat, like Phoenix or Brahea.  I did try B. moorei,  but failed with three successive attempts.  This really bummed me out, as I very much desired that palm. :(

  Others I grow that Louis does not mention are Ceroxyon ventricosum, Chamaedorea carchensis (benziei), C. costaricana, C. ernestii-augusta, C. stolonifera, Dyspsis ambositrae, Laccospadix, and Linospadix  monostachyos.

  I should get busy and do an inventory of my current  in-ground species.  Anyone interested in such a list ?

Yes, I would be very interested to hear what you're growing.

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Patrick Palms

British wind chill, would kill a lot of these palms,  especially when frost and snow, along with cold winds

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SouthSeaNate
17 hours ago, UK_Palms said:

 

 

London hit 100F on 3 separate occasions this year. Last year the average high for July was 85F and saw 14 days above 35C. I agree that long-term data is now obsolete almost. Even in regards to rainfall. The entire pattern has changed here. In recent years, we have had droughts during statistically the wettest part of the year, and then record breaking rainfall in what has previously been the driest part of the year. It's like the rainfall pattern has flipped. I only recorded 16.1 inches of rain for 2018. So far in 2019, I have recorded 11.7 inches. It is almost like a cool/mild Mediterranean climate in the southeast of England.

Not sure where you are getting your info from, but July 2018 had an average high of 28.2C at Heathrow (which is 82F & 4.7C above average) & it had only  one day above 35C (the absolute maximum temperature was 35.0C). It did have 14 days above 30C however.  But summer 2018 was the joint hottest on record for the UK & the hottest ever for England.

This summer London recorded 100F once (37.9C at Heathrow on July 25th).

The climate is indeed changing, but it is producing more freak weather events, it is just as likely that this coming winter could be extremely cold in the UK & next summer could be a cool washout.

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Palmsofengland
22 hours ago, SouthSeaNate said:

Well those Phoenix & Ceroxylons have been tried in London & other milder parts of the UK, including the Scilly Isles & they didn't last very long.  Archontophoenix cunninghamiana do not need hot summers, mine grew reasonably fast even on the south coast, the problem is the cold snaps in the UK have very cold daytime highs, it doesn't matter if the minimum temperatures do not drop that low, if they only re-bound to a few degrees above freezing during the day then that is what kills them.  

Rhopalostylis sapida again don't need hot summers, but they can only take a very light frost, they may be able to recover from -4C in California, but not in the UK, again because the daytime temperatures will be much warmer in California after a freeze.

Syagrus romanzoffiana (normal, "litoralis", "Silver Queens" & "Santa Catarina") have also been tried in central London & other milder areas, they survive the winters OK but can end up looking ratty & the summers are not long or hot enough for them to put on enough growth, they may grow a bit more in hotter summers, but they have all eventually faded away after a few years.

I'm not trying to be pessimistic but many people have been growing palms in the UK for decades & have tried just about every palm reputed to have some cold hardiness, I was one of them & spent thousands over the years. I did have some success with more tender species like Archontophoenix cunninghamiana, but they were eventually killed by a cold winter. By all means try the palms on your list, who knows when the next cold winter will strike & you may well have success with some of them even if you just enjoy them for a few years, but just offering you some words of wisdom from someone who has "been there & done that" :greenthumb:

 

I appreciate the advice, but of course I’ll end up doing it myself and maybe, with the correct siting, I can form a mini jungle in the heart of London. As an aside, many of these palms seem to do well in parts of New Zealand with fairly similar climates to that of London and put on fair amounts of growth with even cooler summer temperatures. For instance, there is a post on the EPS forum at the moment about a Syagrus Romanzoffiana in Christchurch, which would seem to have a significantly less suitable climate throughout the year, and with relatively similar winter maxima (presumably with fairly low maxima in cold snaps as well). Given that Archontophoenix Cunninghamiana and Rhopalostylis also grow in Christchurch, what is it that would enable palms to survive there and not here.

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Palmsofengland
6 hours ago, Patrick Palms said:

British wind chill, would kill a lot of these palms,  especially when frost and snow, along with cold winds

My hope would be to test the more tender of these in a site such that these factors could be excluded i.e. sheltered courtyard, with roof overhang. 

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Palmsofengland

Does anyone have any experience of the hardiness of some of the less common palms listed here (Chambeyronia, Kentiopsis etc.)? I included Euterpe Edulis as I had read that if one can grow A.cunninghamiana, then this could be grown as well. Would members agree with this assessment?

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UK_Palms
6 hours ago, SouthSeaNate said:

Not sure where you are getting your info from, but July 2018 had an average high of 28.2C at Heathrow (which is 82F & 4.7C above average) & it had only  one day above 35C (the absolute maximum temperature was 35.0C). It did have 14 days above 30C however.  But summer 2018 was the joint hottest on record for the UK & the hottest ever for England.

This summer London recorded 100F once (37.9C at Heathrow on July 25th).

The climate is indeed changing, but it is producing more freak weather events, it is just as likely that this coming winter could be extremely cold in the UK & next summer could be a cool washout.

 

I am basing that off my own climatic recordings in my garden. Measured at 2m above the ground, in the shade. I know the recordings are pretty darn accurate. As mentioned, I am around 30 miles outside of central London. You can see that I am growing a variety of cacti outdoors, year-round, which have flowered naturally. Washingtonia is also thriving here. Robusta, Filibusta and Filifera are all doing well. All 3 types are present in my pictures above. Grown from seed outdoors. No mollycoddling. Just left outside in pots. Most are around 14 months old. Phoenix Canariensis is also thriving here too, as is Dactylifera and Theophrasti. All seed grown outdoors. At 51N. It is undoubtedly the mildest climate in the world at such latitude.

London and the surrounding area pushed 100F several times this year. Heat indexes of 107-111F in places. You can try to discredit the extent of the heat, and the effects of climate change here in recent years, but I experienced it this summer. And last. And I recorded it, meteorologically speaking. Including an overnight low of 30C (86F) in late June. As well as 3 occasions where the London area reached 100F or more. Or are you going to tell me that the screenshots attached are inaccurate and wrong?

If I'm not mistaken, you have left the UK and moved to a Mediterranean island? In which case I can see why you would want to understate, and make out, that the UK climate is rubbish. In order to justify you leaving these shores and heading to the Med. But the fact of the matter is that you aren't living in the southeast of England, or growing palms here. Correct me if wrong, please.

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cbmnz
7 hours ago, Palmsofengland said:

I appreciate the advice, but of course I’ll end up doing it myself and maybe, with the correct siting, I can form a mini jungle in the heart of London. As an aside, many of these palms seem to do well in parts of New Zealand with fairly similar climates to that of London and put on fair amounts of growth with even cooler summer temperatures. For instance, there is a post on the EPS forum at the moment about a Syagrus Romanzoffiana in Christchurch, which would seem to have a significantly less suitable climate throughout the year, and with relatively similar winter maxima (presumably with fairly low maxima in cold snaps as well). Given that Archontophoenix Cunninghamiana and Rhopalostylis also grow in Christchurch, what is it that would enable palms to survive there and not here.

Possibly latitude and the corresponding length of day/strength of sunlight in mid Winter. Christchurch NZ is at same latitude as South of France. Yes the Gulf stream and position of landmasses all factor in but that fundamental does not change.  If figures on hand are correct London only averages 50-60 hours of Sun in Dec and Jan. Christchurch gets 120 odd in Jun and Jul, so double amount of sun and higher angle.

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sipalms
1 hour ago, cbmnz said:

Possibly latitude and the corresponding length of day/strength of sunlight in mid Winter. Christchurch NZ is at same latitude as South of France. Yes the Gulf stream and position of landmasses all factor in but that fundamental does not change.  If figures on hand are correct London only averages 50-60 hours of Sun in Dec and Jan. Christchurch gets 120 odd in Jun and Jul, so double amount of sun and higher angle.

This is the exact reason I think the palms that grow here would struggle to pull through a winter in London.

And climate change or no climate change, London has a much higher chance of a cold snap than Christchurch with temperatures that could easily kill off an entire 'jungle'

But as always the proof will be in the pudding. @Palmsofengland - I would recommend trying the jungle out but not over investing!

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sipalms
8 hours ago, Palmsofengland said:

I appreciate the advice, but of course I’ll end up doing it myself and maybe, with the correct siting, I can form a mini jungle in the heart of London. As an aside, many of these palms seem to do well in parts of New Zealand with fairly similar climates to that of London and put on fair amounts of growth with even cooler summer temperatures. For instance, there is a post on the EPS forum at the moment about a Syagrus Romanzoffiana in Christchurch, which would seem to have a significantly less suitable climate throughout the year, and with relatively similar winter maxima (presumably with fairly low maxima in cold snaps as well). Given that Archontophoenix Cunninghamiana and Rhopalostylis also grow in Christchurch, what is it that would enable palms to survive there and not here.

The Christchurch temperature records on Wikipedia are taken from the airport, which has a climate so much different to the hills and seaside suburbs, or even the botanic gardens in the city, if you look at my other post. The palms on the EPS forum (do you mean growing on the edge?) are from the hills which are basically frost free.

 

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