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sonoranfans

Fallaense growing new leaves away from grow point

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sonoranfans

My copernicia fallaense was completely exposed and hammered by IRMA for 5-6 hrs at 65-75mph.  Initially I though the shredding of leaves was the only damage.

IRMAFallaense.PNG

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sonoranfans

After nearly 2 years, most of the damaged leaves(many were inside in that pic) have fallen away and a bunch of new leaves have emerged as it has grown taller.  But now the palm, which has put out about 8-10(?) new leaves, is showing an anomaly not seen by me(or by ken johnson) before.  Leaves are coming out in between the live petioles of some of the older leaves.  I estimate there are 3(hard to tell) new stunted leaves coming out this way.  It continues to push out spears at the grow point, though the speed that height was increasing seems to have abated some.  Here are the leaves coming out in between viable/ live leafbases.  Anyone ever seen anything like this?  In any palm?  The palm seems healthy, no signs of deficiency or stunted leaves(save these odd ones).

,FallaenseLeaves2019N2.jpg

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Daryl

Maybe you will end up with a three headed fallaensis? That would be a sight to see! :D

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kurt decker

I have no theory for this, but those look like seedlings

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sonoranfans

Kurt, the palm has not gone into flower so its not seedlings.   I'm not sure there are any seeding fallaensis in FL, maybe there are some at fairchild.

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Zeeth
2 hours ago, sonoranfans said:

Kurt, the palm has not gone into flower so its not seedlings.   I'm not sure there are any seeding fallaensis in FL, maybe there are some at fairchild.

The ones at Fairchild have been flowering but I haven't seen any seed produced yet.

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kurt decker

At some point, those boots are going to come off and you'll be able to see the structure of those things. Look at how dense that head is that got beat up. Beat-up palms can do weird things. I've seen lots of seeding fan palms do that, sprout babies up in the boot, including one of my Copernicia hospitas. I agree it would be very odd to have that thing flower, especially that high up in the head. But there's no other explanation I can think of, and they sure look exactly like seedlings. Is it more or less probable  at the thing decided to grow five new lateral branches? Like I stated above I have no theory as to how this might have happened. If you can get up there you might be able to dislodge one and see what it is.

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Mike Evans

Time to get the ladder out Tom.  Don;t forget the camera . . . . maybe the gun too.

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sonoranfans

So I did what Mike said, climbed a 9' step ladder to see what was going on.  With razor harp thorns on the petioles, there isn't much to hold on to.

CFladder.jpg

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sonoranfans

I dont think photos have answered the question but the leaflets are divided about 2' from the tip, same as a full size leaf.  But I really cant see the undivided leaf part yet. 

CFleaf1.jpg

CFleaf2.jpg

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sonoranfans

Seems like the exposed part of the leaf is getting longer.  When about 4-5 more leaves drop off the lowest parts of the leaves will be exposed.  Its not a seedling as I don't think  fallaense seedlings have leaflets that are divided 2' from the tips.  

CFleaf3.jpg

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sonoranfans

So far I am counting 4 different new leaves around the trunk.  I will post the result when the leaf bases come off, but that may take a while, possibly not till next summer.  I only cut dead matter and I allow the palm to shed the dead leafbases.

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buffy

Tom: Whatever it's doing, I think its an appropriate time to share my hate for you and your ability to grow Copernicia. ;) Even beat-up, it's gorgeous. :) 

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sonoranfans

Buffy, I do not claim to have the secret to grow these.  I will say they like my area of florida and also down south of me.  I grew great brahea armatas in arizona they were spectacular, but I realistically cant grow them or a jubaea here.  I did learn more than a few things on this board, these cuban copernicias like dolomite in the soil.  I add it and mulch to my sandy soils a couple times a year, and I fertilize heavily with florikan osmotic release palm fertilizer, as recommended by Ken Johnson.  Also this palm gets all day direct (12+ in summer) sunlight, no shading at all, and its in a low spot in the property drainage so it doesnt dry out too easily.  I have a bailey that is younger and it was damaged in the leaves and got a fungus in the bud after IRMA.  I doused it with copper fungicide a couple times and its back, growing nicely.  I grew palms in arizona, much tougher there, many fewer choices and a totally different watering and feeding regimen in clay soils.  I am getting old so I am glad its easier to grow palms here.  But you know, there are always the risks of a hurricane tearing things up.  I am just glad that my copernicia's appear to be recovering nicely.  Here is the bailey below still showing some IRMA damage as well.  the bailey spear(3-4 leaves in it) was broken up by IRMA and probably lost protective wax.  The fungus was on the inside of a dense crown so I didn't notice at first.  I am counting 5 new leaves opened since the last fungus damaged one.  those will all come off in time, but its a process.  I am just glad these things are growing more quickly than 5 years ago.

bailey2019.jpg

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buffy

I'm just picking on you. Everybody is jealous of what their climate won't support. I'm just thankful for all the long time posters. It's this little community of shared knowledge that stretches over the years, over our house moves, family changes and all sorts of stuff. Thankful. :)

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sonoranfans

cameron, I remember all your hybrid and cold hardy stories from texas over the years.  I'm sure they helped many to understand their environments and suitable cold hardy palms for it.  I thought reporting on this damage and recovery would help others to better care for their palms after a hurricane.   Its also interesting that -so far- no one has yet seen this kind of leaflet growth.  Perhaps it ocassionally happens (after a hurricane) in cuba to the taller trees but no one climbs to investigate.

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sonoranfans

My Copernicia Fallaensis continues to push viable new leaves(but not a new growpoint/trunk) between the leaf bases of extant leaves.  Now one has pushed out and become fairly large, running up the back of a leaf higher up on the trunk.  Grow point is not visible on this palm at this time, just too many leaves.   Apparently this is unknown to more experienced palm talkers I have talked to.  It happened after damage by IRMA where about half the lowest leaves were heavily damaged.  Its growing quickly now, so it appears to be very happy. 6th new leaf of the year opened recently.  @Ken Johnson this is the palm you planted for me in sept 2011.  Fallaense_oddleaf.thumb.jpg.0119a0b9c4ceedf60b27d701843bcbd0.jpgThe new partial leaves die off when the (oldest) leaf bases around them are abandoned and the chlorophyll is removed by the palm.

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The Gerg

This is quite bazaar. Always interesting to see new things palms will do. I wonder what the end game will be with this. Will it eventually stop? Who knows. Hopefully it’s nothing that will somehow shorten its life span.

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sonoranfans

fast forward to sept 2020 and it looks like the growth is concentrated on new leaves from the grow point.  The leaves that grew between viable leafbases are still there, might be growing, but it has opened a bunch of new spears(#? cant see close in) and dropped(left brown) a half a dozen leaves since early spring.  Looks happy to me from every angle I can see.  I have included a cloudy day shot and a sunny day shot taken a two days later to show how the color varies depending on lighting conditions.  More than any of my other palms, this one seems to have a "mood color" that arises from the outdoor ambient lighting.Fala2020Steelblue.thumb.jpg.efc6ed3e688e1c23e81f3ba32598c8bc.jpg

FallaenseSept2020.jpg

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PalmatierMeg

That is an outstanding palm!

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sonoranfans

Thanks meg, I do fertilize heavily with florikan and dote on it.  I also put down 150 lb ~ 1/8th inch dolomite in the root area in 2018 on this palm and my bailey.   The palms came with a huge rootball of limestone rock from Ken Johnson in 2011, needed a 2500 lb bobcat and ken gently installed it with the bobcat.  I cut off the brown leaves but let the leaf bases fall on their own.  Last three years I have increased the mulch area at the rootbase.  Killthegrass!!  No competing for nutrients with grass.

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TomJ

That thing is amazing!

California dreaming....

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Moose
On 9/9/2019 at 12:25 PM, sonoranfans said:

So I did what Mike said, climbed a 9' step ladder to see what was going on.  With razor harp thorns on the petioles, there isn't much to hold on to.

CFladder.jpg

Like shark teeth :unsure:

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Fusca
2 hours ago, carmel said:

What does dolomite do?

It helps raise soil pH which Copernicias like.

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sonoranfans

Dead leafbases continued to fall off and I finally was able to view the "new leaves away from the grow point".  No, they are not seedlings, but rather smaller leaf bases and leaves that were were produced in response to IMRA damage.  Here are a few pics that came off today.  The palms still has newer leaves that are in between the original leaves.

IMG_8275.thumb.JPG.c57acb083f3124431f750a4857bfa2da.JPGIMG_8276.thumb.JPG.aa990f023868e45902a8d2f2320c0076.JPG  

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sonoranfans

Here is the tree today, overcast without sun it goes grey green in color.  It seems pretty healthy 4 years later.  It did (noticably) get set back in growth(height) rate but it seems to be back to its old self pre IRMA, possibly a thicker trunk.  Chair is added for scale.  So yes it appears they can grow new leaves away from the grow point when under stress.1674327983_IMG_8284(2).thumb.JPG.40d9b06b37e611b49748c77f38091e0c.JPG

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Merlyn

That's great news it is growing out of the weirdness...er...normally!  I haven't seen a seeding Baileyana or Fallaensis myself, so my first thought was...were those supposed to be seed pods that grew into fronds?  Maybe it was an aborted attempt to seed, or you have a genetic whacko palm that grows fronds instead of seeds? 

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Johnny Palmseed

What a beautiful example of an uncommon palm. Glad to see it doesn’t appear to have any lasting damage.

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sonoranfans
18 hours ago, Merlyn said:

That's great news it is growing out of the weirdness...er...normally!  I haven't seen a seeding Baileyana or Fallaensis myself, so my first thought was...were those supposed to be seed pods that grew into fronds?  Maybe it was an aborted attempt to seed, or you have a genetic whacko palm that grows fronds instead of seeds? 

Fallaensis is not terribly common so I'm not sure how many have observed their response to hurricane level stress.  You can see the leafbases on the old leaf, smaller yes.  Also like I said, the leaflet divisions depth of 2' is greater than the whole leaf of my 15 gallon container fallensis.  The leaves coming out look much more mature leaves with the deep divisions.  The oldest one of these in between leaves I cut off as it was badly abraded by the thorns on older leaves as it pushed out.   It had grown to a size of 10' overall palm in a couple years.  The inter stem leaves are still there, 3 that I  can see are left and they look healthy, no long enough yet to be ripped up by the thorns of older leaves.  Here is a pic today of one of those leaves illuminated by sun.IMG_8294.thumb.JPG.a8152647a0dc74da5780dc7f2e46495d.JPG

 

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