Remarkable palms of Tampa Bay

[JJPalmer 305]

Was driving through Harbor Island this afternoon and passed a house with a decent sized coconut in the front yard. Didn’t have time to snag a pic, but here it is in a 2016 real estate listing. 

[RedRabbit 1,532]

I think I’ve driven past that one before too. Harbor Island has some bigger coconuts on the Seddon Canal that you can see looking across from Davis Island.

[RedRabbit 1,532]

On 9/28/2019 at 11:08 PM, RedRabbit said:

I just took a second look at the map and these coconuts are surprisngly far north:

These may be the furthest north pre-2010 coconuts on the whole west coast of FL. Is anyone aware of coconuts further north than this? Perhaps Tarpon Springs?

There’s a wunderground station in the neighborhood these coconuts are in on Lake Tarpon. The coldest it got was 35.6f, a pretty impressive number for northern Pinellas this winter. The western side of Lake Tarpon seems to have a very good microclimate, solidly 10a from what I’m seeing.

[JJPalmer 305]

Went on a nice long drive around Pinellas County today.  Man does the Snell Isle / Venetian Isle / Shore Acres area of St. Pete have a completely different vibe than the rest of the county. Feels more like Ft. Lauderdale than Tampa Bay. Absolutely beautiful area. 
 

However, to my surprise, we found a healthy and mature coconut far away from the coast in Palm Harbor with no Lake Tarpon influence. Thought it was quite interesting - was a little beat up from the recent cold event, but otherwise looked great! 
https://goo.gl/maps/kQ1BakGBgvJgZtbg9

Pinellas is such an interesting county with quite an array of microclimates.

[JJPalmer 305]

19 hours ago, RedRabbit said:

There’s a wunderground station in the neighborhood these coconuts are in on Lake Tarpon. The coldest it got was 35.6f, a pretty impressive number for northern Pinellas this winter. The western side of Lake Tarpon seems to have a very good microclimate, solidly 10a from what I’m seeing.

Drove around that area and immediate costal Tarpon Springs. Both areas are beautiful and full of 10A palms. 

[RedRabbit 1,532]

4 hours ago, JJPalmer said:

Went on a nice long drive around Pinellas County today.  Man does the Snell Isle / Venetian Isle / Shore Acres area of St. Pete have a completely different vibe than the rest of the county. Feels more like Ft. Lauderdale than Tampa Bay. Absolutely beautiful area. 
 

However, to my surprise, we found a healthy and mature coconut far away from the coast in Palm Harbor with no Lake Tarpon influence. Thought it was quite interesting - was a little beat up from the recent cold event, but otherwise looked great! 
https://goo.gl/maps/kQ1BakGBgvJgZtbg9

Pinellas is such an interesting county with quite an array of microclimates.

Yep, St. Pete is awesome. I lived there in college and thoroughly enjoyed it, great city with a great climate.

I checked out streetview on that Palm Harbor coconut you found. It looks like there used to be a foxtail there, but it died in 2010 so I guess they decided to replace it with something less hardy. lol

 

1 hour ago, JJPalmer said:

Drove around that area and immediate costal Tarpon Springs. Both areas are beautiful and full of 10A palms. 

 

I've never been to that neighborhood on Lake Tarpon,  but it sure looks impressive on Streetview for that part of the county. I'm not sure if any other part of Lake Tarpon is like this, I haven't found any cluster of zone 10 plants anywhere else like in that one neighborhood.

Edited January 26, 2020 by RedRabbit

[Chatta 701]

just saw these pair of lovely coconuts in Hyde Park jus south of Kennedy on Melville

[kinzyjr 3,688]

Not technically a zone push since the Trebrown database considers this a 9b palm, but you don't see many of these around ( Cryosophila warscewiczii ).  In the first picture, you see the label.  In the two pictures after the label you can see the palms.  One of them had an Inflores­cence, but it looks like I was a little too late to get fruit.

[RedRabbit 1,532]

8 minutes ago, kinzyjr said:

Not technically a zone push since the Trebrown database considers this a 9b palm, but you don't see many of these around ( Cryosophila warscewiczii ).  In the first picture, you see the label.  In the two pictures after the label you can see the palms.  One of them had an Inflores­cence, but it looks like I was a little too late to get fruit.

Where is this? It’s really a 9b palm?

[kinzyjr 3,688]

Just now, RedRabbit said:

Where is this? It’s really a 9b palm? 

This is right underneath that Dypsis on the south side of City Hall.  According to Trebrown and Palmpedia, this is a 9b palm.  I'll have to take their word for it as I don't currently have any, subject to change in 2020 if it sets viable fruit.

https://www.palmpedia.net/wiki/Cryosophila_warscewiczii

[Chatta 701]

is that A. Purpea next to it?

[kinzyjr 3,688]

Just now, Chatta said:

is that A. Purpea next to it?

I'm not sure to be honest.  I was primarily there to harvest a few "known 2008+2010+2018 survivor" Archontophoenix alexandrae seeds for my own personal use when I walked past this area and stopped dead in my tracks to get a few photos.  Given the color of the crownshaft is accurate in spite of the low light under the palm and tree canopy, it certainly is possible.  If anyone else a little better at Palm ID can weight in on that, I'd trust their judgement.

[Chatta 701]

its a jaw dropper with that crownshaft color regardless.

I "Think" these are king palms that were just planted at a renovation on Kennedy in the Westshore District
2nd photo is in Westshore on Clark Ave

[SWFLchris 244]

1 hour ago, Chatta said:

is that A. Purpea next to it?

Chambeyronia

 

1 hour ago, RedRabbit said:

Where is this? It’s really a 9b palm?

Definitely 9b palm, weirdly tolerant of super low light too, good indoor palm 

[kinzyjr 3,688]

15 minutes ago, SWFLchris said:

Chambeyronia 

 

Definitely 9b palm, weirdly tolerant of super low light too, good indoor palm 

Chambeyronia macrocarpa I'm assuming?

[RedRabbit 1,532]

14 hours ago, Chatta said:

its a jaw dropper with that crownshaft color regardless.

I "Think" these are king palms that were just planted at a renovation on Kennedy in the Westshore District
2nd photo is in Westshore on Clark Ave

Those look like kings to me. I used to live really close to there, it’s a pretty good area. 

[kinzyjr 3,688]

On 10/10/2019 at 12:23 AM, kinzyjr said:

Here is what I believe to be Ptychosperma elegans (since it hasn't re-clumped) in Lake Hamilton.  There were originally a clump of 3, but only one has survived since 2008.  On the April 2011 view, you can see the severe damage done by the winter of 2010-2011.

Ptychosperma - Lake Hamilton - Crump Rd.

 

On 10/10/2019 at 2:14 AM, RedRabbit said:

Nice find! It looks like there is a second group of them in the background.  

 

On 10/10/2019 at 5:41 AM, palmsOrl said:

That one could be Veitchia.  Thank you for sharing Jeremy!

I can confirm that @palmsOrl is correct on the species and that @RedRabbit is correct that there is a group of them behind the initial discovery.  Did a little research on the boat tour company and seemed like friendly people, so decided to pay a visit when I wouldn't get in the way of their commercial traffic.  The palms were in flower and have produced viable seed in the past as evidenced by the small volunteers in the planting bed as well as a few specimens that the business apparently potted up on the front porch.  Will be keeping an eye out and maybe taking a boat tour.

[JJPalmer 305]

^{Drive by this coconut on Ulmerton just south of the airport quite often, but I never thought to check on the age of the palm.   To my surprise, I found that it pre-dates the 2010 freeze, which is interesting due to the amount of open land to the north occupied by runway.. Looks like it had a twin, too.  Either way - thought this was worth of posting.}

https://www.google.com/maps/@27.8937996,-82.6824645,3a,22.9y,181.06h,94.14t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1slFQhCMo1DZ9aOm16NTJ5kA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en

[tropical1 33]

We have been blessed with a good lakefront microclimate in Keystone, FL that has allowed us to grow a large number of palms and tropical fruit trees.

Here are some pics... (Pt 1)

 

1. Roystonea sp. grown from seed collected from Yucatan region Mexico

2. Kentiopsis oliviformis

3. Copernecia baileyana

4. Carpenteria grown from seed and planted at neighbors house

5. Wodyetia from seedling

6. Becacariophoenix bought from Jeff Searle

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 31, 2020 by tropical1

[tropical1 33]

We have been blessed with a good lakefront microclimate in Keystone, FL that has allowed us to grow a large number of palms and tropical fruit trees.

Here are some more pics... (Pt 2). 

 

1. Caryota sp - maybe ochlandra? Bismarckia nobilis, Sabal yapa?

2. Old man palm - grown from 3 gallon, buccaneer palm

3. Adonidia - 

4. Dypsis Diego bought from Jungle Music

5. Dypsis pembana

 

6. Teddy Bear bought from Mike Evans

 

7. Need help with id, I think it is a Cocothrinax, silver underside, it was grown from seed but not certain which one. Also have a seedling of the one that is native to Cayman Islands

[RedRabbit 1,532]

Nice garden @tropical1! I always like to see what’s growing up there in Keystone/Odessa. Your carpentaria looks great, how long have you had it?

[tropical1 33]

Thanks!

it was grown from seed, I am going to guess over 10 years. There are actually two one In my yard and one in my neighbors, that I grew. His is bigger so I used that photo.

[RedRabbit 1,532]

1 hour ago, tropical1 said:

Thanks!

it was grown from seed, I am going to guess over 10 years. There are actually two one In my yard and one in my neighbors, that I grew. His is bigger so I used that photo.

Wow, that’s awesome to grow something from seed and have it end up that big. There are very few carpentaria around here so it’s really good to see yours doing so well. I think I might have to give one a try here. 

[tropical1 33]

You should. They grow very fast.

[RedRabbit 1,532]

Allegedly there was a coconut in Clearwater Beach that survived the 1989 freeze:

COCOS nucifera: tall mature palms killed at temps from 23f to 19f (Daytona to Vero). Maypan hybrids show severe burn with any frost (temps 29f on down). There are several "Jamaican Tall" varieties which handle the cold better but are highly susceptible to lethal-yellowing thus are rarely if ever planted anymore. Among those is a specimen growing on the bay in Clearwater Beach that barely survived 19f in '89 and lives to this day.

I'd be very interested to know if this palm actually exists or ever existed. I'm skeptical a coconut survived there knowing they were basically all killed in Pinellas County apart from the one at GSK. Further, that sentence has two questionable points in that Clearwater Beach isn't on any bay and it probably wasn't 19f there (I believe that was really Tampa's low.) Still, its a fascinating claim and hopefully correct. Does anyone know anything more about this coconut?

Edited February 2, 2020 by RedRabbit

[Reeverse 614]

On 1/28/2020 at 7:09 PM, kinzyjr said:

 

 

I can confirm that @palmsOrl is correct on the species and that @RedRabbit is correct that there is a group of them behind the initial discovery.  Did a little research on the boat tour company and seemed like friendly people, so decided to pay a visit when I wouldn't get in the way of their commercial traffic.  The palms were in flower and have produced viable seed in the past as evidenced by the small volunteers in the planting bed as well as a few specimens that the business apparently potted up on the front porch.  Will be keeping an eye out and maybe taking a boat tour.

Nice find!! Veitchia sp are great palms! I grabbed some seeds from Kopsick a couple years ago and had good luck. They're rockets

[Reeverse 614]

3 years from seed

[sonoranfans 1,729]

I remember a trunking coconut on clearwater beach back in 2010 when I used to work in largo.   It survived the dec 2010 cold front but clearwater beach is right on the water could be about 4-5 degrees F warmer than the tampa airport depending on prevailing wind.  I heard the claims (about 1989), not sure what to make of it but that coco took a beating on dec 2010 where it hit about 30F+/-.  My searching for the weather on that day in 1989 led to 23F at the tampa airport vs 25F in dec 14 2010.   The bradenton record was set in 2010(27F), maybe we didnt have a station in 1989  but we are warmer than tampa airport by at least 3 degrees.  Miami hitting 30 degrees in 1989 tells you it hit the east coast harder as it was only 7 degrees warmer in miami(vs tampa) in 1989 vs 11 degrees warmer in miami in 2010.   In dec 14 2010 anna maria island 38F was warmer than miami(36), which is also rare.   

 

[kinzyjr 3,688]

8 hours ago, RedRabbit said:

Allegedly there was a coconut in Clearwater Beach that survived the 1989 freeze:

COCOS nucifera: tall mature palms killed at temps from 23f to 19f (Daytona to Vero). Maypan hybrids show severe burn with any frost (temps 29f on down). There are several "Jamaican Tall" varieties which handle the cold better but are highly susceptible to lethal-yellowing thus are rarely if ever planted anymore. Among those is a specimen growing on the bay in Clearwater Beach that barely survived 19f in '89 and lives to this day.

I'd be very interested to know if this palm actually exists or ever existed. I'm skeptical a coconut survived there knowing they were basically all killed in Pinellas County apart from the one at GSK. Further, that sentence has two questionable points in that Clearwater Beach isn't on any bay and it probably wasn't 19f there (I believe that was really Tampa's low.) Still, its a fascinating claim and hopefully correct. Does anyone know anything more about this coconut?

There are now 3 observations of this type of event happening.  Me and @palmsOrl had talked about the above mentioned observation in Clearwater Beach as well as a similar observation of a coconut palm that survived hitting 19F in Cocoa Beach.  We agreed that the weather station where the temperature was recorded was probably inland away from where these coconuts were actually planted and that they probably saw something more like 23-24F.  Whether that assumption is right or wrong is probably unverifiable at this point.  Unfortunately, both of those coconut palms are part of a mulch pile somewhere at this point. 

I did recently come across a third observation of this happening through a combination of attending the 2019 CFPACS Holiday Meeting and looking through an older issue of The Palmateer (a quarterly published online by CFPACS).  In that old issue, the editor describes hitting 18F in Vero (inland) while the Michael's property hit 19F during the 1989 Christmas Freeze.  While we were in attendance, Anne was asked if there were any survivors present from that freeze and she pointed to one of the large Talls on the property and said that was the only one.  It is healthy and perpetually setting fruit at this point.  I didn't see any nuts that I could positively ID as coming from that particular tree or I would have harvested one since we were given permission to take any seeds we saw on the ground.

You can see the photos and a post regarding the temperature here: Travel Logs - CFPACS - Anne Michael's Garden - Holiday 2019

[RedRabbit 1,532]

14 hours ago, kinzyjr said:

There are now 3 observations of this type of event happening.  Me and @palmsOrl had talked about the above mentioned observation in Clearwater Beach as well as a similar observation of a coconut palm that survived hitting 19F in Cocoa Beach.  We agreed that the weather station where the temperature was recorded was probably inland away from where these coconuts were actually planted and that they probably saw something more like 23-24F.  Whether that assumption is right or wrong is probably unverifiable at this point.  Unfortunately, both of those coconut palms are part of a mulch pile somewhere at this point. 

I did recently come across a third observation of this happening through a combination of attending the 2019 CFPACS Holiday Meeting and looking through an older issue of The Palmateer (a quarterly published online by CFPACS).  In that old issue, the editor describes hitting 18F in Vero (inland) while the Michael's property hit 19F during the 1989 Christmas Freeze.  While we were in attendance, Anne was asked if there were any survivors present from that freeze and she pointed to one of the large Talls on the property and said that was the only one.  It is healthy and perpetually setting fruit at this point.  I didn't see any nuts that I could positively ID as coming from that particular tree or I would have harvested one since we were given permission to take any seeds we saw on the ground.

You can see the photos and a post regarding the temperature here: Travel Logs - CFPACS - Anne Michael's Garden - Holiday 2019

That's amazing that a coconut could survive 19f at Michael's place. 

[sonoranfans 1,729]

On 2/2/2020 at 1:33 AM, RedRabbit said:

Allegedly there was a coconut in Clearwater Beach that survived the 1989 freeze:

COCOS nucifera: tall mature palms killed at temps from 23f to 19f (Daytona to Vero). Maypan hybrids show severe burn with any frost (temps 29f on down). There are several "Jamaican Tall" varieties which handle the cold better but are highly susceptible to lethal-yellowing thus are rarely if ever planted anymore. Among those is a specimen growing on the bay in Clearwater Beach that barely survived 19f in '89 and lives to this day.

I'd be very interested to know if this palm actually exists or ever existed. I'm skeptical a coconut survived there knowing they were basically all killed in Pinellas County apart from the one at GSK. Further, that sentence has two questionable points in that Clearwater Beach isn't on any bay and it probably wasn't 19f there (I believe that was really Tampa's low.) Still, its a fascinating claim and hopefully correct. Does anyone know anything more about this coconut?

the tampa low was 23F on dec 24 1989 so clearwater beach was probably 28-30F or so depending on prevailing wind.  The freeze of 1989 was worse on the east coast, so its a better marker there.  As I said above, 2010 was only 2 degrees warmer in tampa @25F.     https://flbrace.org/images/docs/extreme-cold-factsheet.pdf   Taller trees often see a warmer temperature, it could be 2 degrees warmer at 10-15 feet above the ground.  Temperatures are measured at 6' height at weather stations to standardize readings(since they are often a function of height) but we have had hobbyists measure then at 2-4' and get lower numbers.  Or they have measured temps out in the open and had the palm under canopy, which is a bad data point for cold tolerance.  The temperature at the bud height is what matters in cold tolerance.  Royals were more damaged in my area from 30 degrees advective in 2018 than 28 degrees radiational in 2010.  that is because a radiational cold is notably warmer as height is increased but not so much for an advective event.  If there is good wind break or other trees around to gtrap down heat, survival will improve at the same "weather station temp').  ANd then there are  those who think the temp inland is the same as on the beach.  In 2010 near bradenton 10 miles inland was 8 degrees colder than at the beach from weather stations in our area.  2 miles further (inland)east all royals were killed as temps dropped another 2 degrees.  Wht really matters is the temp of the bud, not the air.  Over time the bud will come into equilibrium with the air thermally if its cold long enough.

[kinzyjr 3,688]

Not a huge zone push, but I've seen more of these Dictyosperma album popping up in spots.  This particular palm has been around since at least late 2010.

[JJPalmer 305]

Spent a chunk of the afternoon exploring Davis Island - what a climate! Incredibly impressed with what is planted and thriving, even when compared to South Tampa. 

For example,  these coconut palms are from at least 2007, and seemed to handle the 2010 freeze better than almost any coconuts in Pinellas: https://www.google.com/maps/@27.9311298,-82.4602754,3a,27.1y,187.46h,108.51t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s5-KBh10iByZt2OmkP-aPvA!2e0!5s20181201T000000!7i16384!8i8192

Countless other pre-2010 cocos, large banyans, and more. Excited to go back and look around some more.

 

Edited February 17, 2020 by JJPalmer

[JJPalmer 305]

On 2/2/2020 at 1:16 PM, kinzyjr said:

There are now 3 observations of this type of event happening.  Me and @palmsOrl had talked about the above mentioned observation in Clearwater Beach as well as a similar observation of a coconut palm that survived hitting 19F in Cocoa Beach.  We agreed that the weather station where the temperature was recorded was probably inland away from where these coconuts were actually planted and that they probably saw something more like 23-24F.  Whether that assumption is right or wrong is probably unverifiable at this point.  Unfortunately, both of those coconut palms are part of a mulch pile somewhere at this point. 

I did recently come across a third observation of this happening through a combination of attending the 2019 CFPACS Holiday Meeting and looking through an older issue of The Palmateer (a quarterly published online by CFPACS).  In that old issue, the editor describes hitting 18F in Vero (inland) while the Michael's property hit 19F during the 1989 Christmas Freeze.  While we were in attendance, Anne was asked if there were any survivors present from that freeze and she pointed to one of the large Talls on the property and said that was the only one.  It is healthy and perpetually setting fruit at this point.  I didn't see any nuts that I could positively ID as coming from that particular tree or I would have harvested one since we were given permission to take any seeds we saw on the ground.

You can see the photos and a post regarding the temperature here: Travel Logs - CFPACS - Anne Michael's Garden - Holiday 2019

I recently noticed a house for sale on the intercoastal highway in Clearwater with a remarkably old coconut in the backyard: https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/7-Leeward-Is-Clearwater-FL-33767/47019815_zpid/?mmlb=g,0

From this streetview (barely), you can see that this same coconut was taller than the houses roof line in 2009.  Wonder if there is any chance that it is the pre-89 specimen. https://www.google.com/maps/@27.9755242,-82.8143124,3a,15y,143.79h,98.83t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1srQoqP0lkouYjwZwvsxABZw!2e0!5s20090501T000000!7i13312!8i6656

[kinzyjr 3,688]

Just now, JJPalmer said:

I recently noticed a house for sale on the intercoastal highway in Clearwater with a remarkably old coconut in the backyard: https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/7-Leeward-Is-Clearwater-FL-33767/47019815_zpid/?mmlb=g,0

From this streetview (barely), you can see that this same coconut was taller than the houses roof line in 2009.  Wonder if there is any chance that it is the pre-89 specimen. https://www.google.com/maps/@27.9755242,-82.8143124,3a,15y,143.79h,98.83t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1srQoqP0lkouYjwZwvsxABZw!2e0!5s20090501T000000!7i13312!8i6656

A very nice coconut indeed. 

Unfortunately, no chance that this is the specimen in question if the information I read about them was correct.  The specimens in Clearwater and Cocoa Beach were sent to the mulch pile many moons ago from everything I've gathered.  I'll see if I can hunt down more information on those reports later.

[SWFLchris 244]

Saw one today on Sand Key that looked like it could be pre-89, might be the one 

https://www.google.com/maps/@27.9515353,-82.8309911,3a,31.1y,151.63h,97.92t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s0yymcFg9yu0VMUWvMXswbA!2e0!5s20190301T000000!7i16384!8i8192

Edited February 18, 2020 by SWFLchris

[SWFLchris 244]

Plus some pre-2010 in front of Island Way

https://www.google.com/maps/@27.9760003,-82.8170742,3a,75y,323.82h,101.3t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sjqQAdZBY4bCOUGZX4qdhpQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

[RedRabbit 1,532]

2 hours ago, JJPalmer said:

Spent a chunk of the afternoon exploring Davis Island - what a climate! Incredibly impressed with what is planted and thriving, even when compared to South Tampa. 

For example,  these coconut palms are from at least 2007, and seemed to handle the 2010 freeze better than almost any coconuts in Pinellas: https://www.google.com/maps/@27.9311298,-82.4602754,3a,27.1y,187.46h,108.51t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s5-KBh10iByZt2OmkP-aPvA!2e0!5s20181201T000000!7i16384!8i8192

Countless other pre-2010 cocos, large banyans, and more. Excited to go back and look around some more.

 

Davis Island is one of very few places in Tampa that looks legitimately like 10a. The sole pre-80s royal I know of in Tampa is on Davis Island. 
 

That said, it still isn’t that warm of climate. The coconuts there took damage in 2018 whereas most of the ones in lower Pinellas were untouched.

[RedRabbit 1,532]

As far as pre-1980s coconuts go, I’d be looking for coconuts with 45+ feet of trunk. 

[Xenon 1,000]

3 hours ago, SWFLchris said:

Saw one today on Sand Key that looked like it could be pre-89, might be the one 

https://www.google.com/maps/@27.9515353,-82.8309911,3a,31.1y,151.63h,97.92t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s0yymcFg9yu0VMUWvMXswbA!2e0!5s20190301T000000!7i16384!8i8192

The same palm in 2007 looks like a teenager that hasn't seen much cold.  Maybe planted mid 90s? Coconuts sure do grow fast.