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Dartolution

Seeds from the beach, lots.

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Dartolution

Hey Guys, 

I went down to Panama city beach and stayed at a resort for an extended weekend and while there came across quite a lot of palm seeds at the resort. 

The place was covered in palms, mostly sago, sabal, and butias, some others as well. 

 

Anyway, 

While down there, a storm washed probably thousands of what appear to be germinated sabal seedlings on shore. 

I collected a handful of them, wrapped them in a wet napkin, placed them in a zip lock bag, and brought them home. 

Here the sabal seedlings are from the beach:

What are the chances of these guys making it if I plant them again?

I also picked up 10 sabal seeds that weren't germinated on the ground around some adult palms. 

Sabalseeds.jpg

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Dartolution

Additionally I picked up 1 single sago seed (I already have 2 and just did it for kicks). 

Here it is:

 

SagoSeeds.jpg

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Dartolution

And the best for last:

I grabbed 10 butia fruits from the ground around a very large very healthy butia palm at the resort. 

They smell like sweet fruit haha. 

Im not sure how to go about germinating any of these seeds, or how to properly "rescue" the sabal seedlings, but I want to try. 

If anyone has any advice I would appreciate it. 

 

Here are the Butia fruits.

 

Butia.jpg

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jimmyt

The sabal seedlings are tough. If you kept them moist then you will be good. Get some good draining soil and bury the roots up to the shoot keep them warm, moist, and shaded until you see new growth.  Don’t keep the soil soggy.  I put the cleaned seed in damp sphagnum moss in a baggie mixed with a weak antifungal solution to prevent mold. Try to keep the seed steady warm around 85-90 F.  Use similar well draining mix and lay the sago seed on it’s side and cover with media leaving top half exposed.  Keep moist and warm.  Warmth is key, but not scorching full high noon sun.

....and be patient. Good luck

jimmyt 

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Dartolution

Thanks @jimmyt 

What do you think about an organically rich soil and perlite in a 50/50 ratio. It should drain sharply or fast and still have nutrients?

 

Also, for the butia seeds/fruits, what would you recommending doing? I think these are capitate, but I'm not 100% sure. thoughts?

 

 

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kinzyjr
1 hour ago, Dartolution said:

Thanks @jimmyt 

What do you think about an organically rich soil and perlite in a 50/50 ratio. It should drain sharply or fast and still have nutrients?

Also, for the butia seeds/fruits, what would you recommending doing? I think these are capitate, but I'm not 100% sure. thoughts?

I primarily use potting soil and perlite in a 50/50 or 33/67 ratio, depending on the palm.  50/50 is like a seive.  For the Butia (likely odorata), standard operating procedure applies.  You can germinate them in the medium you have suggested by using the standard "strip the fruit/soak for 24 to 48 hours, changing the water to remove inhibitors/sow and keep around 90F" process that applies to most tropical and subtropical palms.  If you found them on the ground, it wouldn't hurt to add a short soak in a broad spectrum insecticide as well.  It took a few months for mine to germinate.

You may find this thread to be of value: https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/34588-butia-odorata-germination-in-19-days/

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Fusca
12 hours ago, Dartolution said:

I grabbed 10 butia fruits from the ground around a very large very healthy butia palm at the resort. 

They smell like sweet fruit

Good advice from @jimmyt and @kinzyjr and they're all hardy to your zone.  The Butia fruits we used to call "pindo dates" - they are edible fruits and quite tasty!  I often make jelly from these and queen palm (Syagrus romanzoffiana) fruits.

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Dartolution

Thanks guys. 

How can I store the seeds If I choose not to germinate all 10?

 

What pot size would anyone recommend for the seedlings Ive mentioned? Mostly the Sabals (palmetto probably), and Butia capitata. (I would assume). 

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kinzyjr

Storage: Depends on how long you want to store them.  Typically, you'd want to keep them in a cool (68F-72F), relatively dry place either in a plastic container or plastic bag.  Keep in mind that some will likely lose their viability, depending on the length of time in storage.

Size of pot for seedlings:  Something the size of a grande Starbucks cup is sufficient for a starter pot.

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Dartolution
6 hours ago, kinzyjr said:

Storage: Depends on how long you want to store them.  Typically, you'd want to keep them in a cool (68F-72F), relatively dry place either in a plastic container or plastic bag.  Keep in mind that some will likely lose their viability, depending on the length of time in storage.

Size of pot for seedlings:  Something the size of a grande Starbucks cup is sufficient for a starter pot.

Hahaha Thanks, I picked up roughly 1.5 gallon nursery pots at lowes today to sow a few in. 

Im going to clean the 10 butia fruits I have off, and probably only sow 5 of the seeds myself. 

 

 

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Dartolution

Removed the fruit from the butia seeds I got and here they are wet and dry. 

Wet:

ButiaWet.jpg

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Dartolution

and dry:

 

ButiaDry.jpg

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Dartolution

I was thinking this as a soil mix for both seeds (sabal and butia):

either:

2 parts miracle grow performance organics in ground soil (not the potting mix)

1 part Perlite

1 part all purpose sand

 

or

4 parts Fox Farm Ocean Forest 

2 parts MG performance organics as stated above

2 parts sand/perlite mix.

 

 

thoughts?

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kinzyjr

Either way.  Neither of these species really cares about soil mixtures that much. 

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Dartolution

Well, last night in an attempt to open one of the seeds, this happened...

 

So, I don't think I would be able to remove that outer hull... 

Butiabroken.jpg

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Fusca
1 hour ago, Dartolution said:

Well, last night in an attempt to open one of the seeds, this happened...

So, I don't think I would be able to remove that outer hull... 

I was going to suggest cracking the outer shell of the Butia seeds as I have had better luck germinating this way.  There are usually multiple embryos in each.  Use a vise and turn very slowly until you hear the shell crack and then remove the embryos.  I have lost minimal seeds like you have (probably 10%) using the vise but that wasn't a problem with many seeds to work with.  Or just sow the seeds you have without cracking them.

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Dartolution
1 hour ago, Fusca said:

I was going to suggest cracking the outer shell of the Butia seeds as I have had better luck germinating this way.  There are usually multiple embryos in each.  Use a vise and turn very slowly until you hear the shell crack and then remove the embryos.  I have lost minimal seeds like you have (probably 10%) using the vise but that wasn't a problem with many seeds to work with.  Or just sow the seeds you have without cracking them.

Since these are so fresh the embryo seems to still be stuck to the inside of that shell. I am not confident that cracking it won't damage the inside. 

Has anyone tried just heavily scarifying the outer hull with sandpaper or steel wool ?

I planned to try this and soak them for 2-3 days in warm water outside, then transfer them to moistened perlite in a Tupperware container I suppose. 

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jimmyt
On 8/19/2019 at 9:49 PM, Dartolution said:

Thanks @jimmyt 

What do you think about an organically rich soil and perlite in a 50/50 ratio. It should drain sharply or fast and still have nutrients?

 

Also, for the butia seeds/fruits, what would you recommending doing? I think these are capitate, but I'm not 100% sure. thoughts?

 

 

As long it is Well draining soil.  The seed does not need nutrients for some time due to stored energy reserves within the seed itself.  Nutrients become an issue in the weeks following growth. 

I see that you tried cracking the butia seed.  Did you use a hammer or the vise technique.   A hammer is like using a chain saw for plastic surgery, where a vise would be like using a scalpel for surgery.  It is just easier to control the force used in the process.  Otherwise you can scarify with rough grit sandpaper or a small wood file.  Just stay away from the radicle.

Scarification of palm seed involves thinning the bony endocarp of palm seeds that may impede imbibition of water. It may be accomplished mechanically, by abrading the surface of the seed until the endosperm becomes visible, or by soaking the seed in dilute to concentrated sulfuric acid (H2 SO4 ) for 10 to 30 minutes. Scarification has increased the rate of germination of a number of palm species with hard, water-impermeable seed coats (Holmquist and Popenoe 1967; Nagao et al. 1980; Odetola 1987). Complete removal of the stony endocarp was found to greatly enhance germination percentage and speed in Butia capitata (Broschat 1998). This can be accomplished by cracking individual endocarps in a bench vise or larger quantities in a commercial nut cracker. Since each Butia endocarp contains from one to three seeds, germination rates can exceed 100 seedlings per hundred endocarps with this method. The danger in mechanical or acid scarification is damage to the embryo during the process. The practice should be reserved for seeds with hard and impermeable seed coats. Species that have slow or uneven germination without scarification should have seed scarified on a trial basis before the entire lot of seed is treated.

I would try different methods if unsure what works, especially if you have limited quantities of seed to use.  

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Dartolution
54 minutes ago, jimmyt said:

As long it is Well draining soil.  The seed does not need nutrients for some time due to stored energy reserves within the seed itself.  Nutrients become an issue in the weeks following growth. 

I see that you tried cracking the butia seed.  Did you use a hammer or the vise technique.   A hammer is like using a chain saw for plastic surgery, where a vise would be like using a scalpel for surgery.  It is just easier to control the force used in the process.  Otherwise you can scarify with rough grit sandpaper or a small wood file.  Just stay away from the radicle.

Scarification of palm seed involves thinning the bony endocarp of palm seeds that may impede imbibition of water. It may be accomplished mechanically, by abrading the surface of the seed until the endosperm becomes visible, or by soaking the seed in dilute to concentrated sulfuric acid (H2 SO4 ) for 10 to 30 minutes. Scarification has increased the rate of germination of a number of palm species with hard, water-impermeable seed coats (Holmquist and Popenoe 1967; Nagao et al. 1980; Odetola 1987). Complete removal of the stony endocarp was found to greatly enhance germination percentage and speed in Butia capitata (Broschat 1998). This can be accomplished by cracking individual endocarps in a bench vise or larger quantities in a commercial nut cracker. Since each Butia endocarp contains from one to three seeds, germination rates can exceed 100 seedlings per hundred endocarps with this method. The danger in mechanical or acid scarification is damage to the embryo during the process. The practice should be reserved for seeds with hard and impermeable seed coats. Species that have slow or uneven germination without scarification should have seed scarified on a trial basis before the entire lot of seed is treated.

I would try different methods if unsure what works, especially if you have limited quantities of seed to use.  

Thanks @jimmyt.

On the of the remaining seeds, I used a small drill bit to drill into the endocarp gently and not to a depth that damages the embryo to possibly help water seep in. We will see if that does anything at all. 

 

What is the radicle? Im assuming you mean the point where seedling emerges from the endocarp? (the "dots")?

 

 

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Dartolution

After some searching on the Butia seed germination I came across this article on research gate and wanted to share it if anyone is interested. 

 

Optimization of Butia odorata seed germination

 

Can anyone confirm from the pictures I have that those seeds and fruits are indeed from odorata?

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kinzyjr

@Dartolution

Thank you for sharing the article.  The image you shared of your seeds matches the images of the Butia odorata from Useful Temperate Plants pretty well, so I would say that they are indeed odorata.

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Dartolution
16 minutes ago, kinzyjr said:

@Dartolution

Thank you for sharing the article.  The image you shared of your seeds matches the images of the Butia odorata from Useful Temperate Plants pretty well, so I would say that they are indeed odorata.

Thanks @kinzyjr From the picture in the link mine seem slightly more oblong, but that may just me. 

Ive given them all a soak in water for 24 hours around lunch today, and will most likely try to germinate them in a tupperware container filled with moistened perlite with the lid on and holes poked through. 

I hope I can get at least 3 of the 9 germinated. 

 

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Dartolution

Also, here is an update of the germinated seedlings I gathered on Sunday night after a storm:

I think they are sabal palmetto, I hope they are. What do you guys think?

Heres the group: 8 total

SabalP3.jpg

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Dartolution

Heres a closeup of one that's beginning to green:

 

SabalP2.jpg

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Dartolution

and here's the strongest of them all:

 

SabalP1.jpg

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Dartolution

I have them in Morning sun with afternoon shade right now in a potting mix of roughly 50% soil 50% perlite/sand mix

They get about 5-6 hours of morning sun. 

Is that enough?

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kinzyjr

@Dartolution Nice work!  You'll have a forest of them in ~20-30 years ;) 

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Dartolution
1 hour ago, kinzyjr said:

@Dartolution Nice work!  You'll have a forest of them in ~20-30 years ;) 

hahaha probably so lol.

Here is an update on the Butia seeds. 

The central row of 3 are the 3 I drilled into the shell a bit (not too deep, just to see if that helped moisture permeate the barrier. 

Time will tell I suppose. 

 

 

ButiaSeedPerlite.jpg

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jimmyt
On 8/21/2019 at 1:12 PM, Dartolution said:

What is the radicle? Im assuming you mean the point where seedling emerges from the endocarp? (the "dots")?

Yes sir.  That is the place to stay away from with your tools    Sabal seedlings look like pleated spears emerging.  But to be honest it is difficult to tell many seedlings apart until you get at least one strap leaf that might help you identify the genus....

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Fusca
4 hours ago, Dartolution said:

After some searching on the Butia seed germination I came across this article on research gate and wanted to share it if anyone is interested. 

Optimization of Butia odorata seed germination

Can anyone confirm from the pictures I have that those seeds and fruits are indeed from odorata?

Just in case you were wondering, the photos labeled D-G in this article you provided show the germinated embryos which is what you'd get from cracking and removing the outer shell (operculum).  If I remember right, there are 3 "eyes" on the outer shell of your seeds (like a coconut has) and this allows multiple plants to emerge from a single seed.  Butia odorata are quite variable - including flower color, fruit color and size, and seed size.

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Dartolution

@jimmyt When I drilled in to the buttes I did not drill near the radicle, only between the radicles and one at the other end of the seed. (not drilling into the embryo) 

The one sabal that has a leaflet does appear to be "pleated"  up close, but only yesterday and today has it turned green. Im assuming this is a good sign. 

 

Upon further inspection of the collected seeds from the ground I noticed all of those had a small hole in them, and when cracking them open appear to have bugs/larvae inside. 

All those seeds have been discarded. 

My only hope with the Sabals are the ones I have potted that washed up on the shore. 

None of the butia seeds appear to be blemished at all. 

 

@Fusca I unfortunately do not have any tools I am confident using that will remove the outer shell without damaging them embryo. 

The Butia seeds do have 3 "eyes" on them. 

 

Does the taproot emerge from this, or does the leaf, or both? 

 

I did find an old picture of the mother plant online. Its grown a little since, but this is the best picture I could find. (I forgot to take a picture) 

 

Butiamom.jpg

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Fusca
20 hours ago, Dartolution said:

Does the taproot emerge from this, or does the leaf, or both? 

Both.  It is a remote germinator similar to the Sabal seedlings you have.

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jimmyt

@jimmyt When I drilled in to the buttes I did not drill near the radicle, only between the radicles and one at the other end of the seed. (not drilling into the embryo) 

The one sabal that has a leaflet does appear to be "pleated"  up close, but only yesterday and today has it turned green. Im assuming this is a good sign. 

 So far so good.  turning green is good like "dollar bills".   you are honing your drill skills ;).   Try to stay out of the embryo as you did.  You can scrap it a bit but any major wounds will likely doom it.  Be vigilant for fungus growth now as well.

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Dartolution
34 minutes ago, jimmyt said:

@jimmyt When I drilled in to the buttes I did not drill near the radicle, only between the radicles and one at the other end of the seed. (not drilling into the embryo) 

The one sabal that has a leaflet does appear to be "pleated"  up close, but only yesterday and today has it turned green. Im assuming this is a good sign. 

 So far so good.  turning green is good like "dollar bills".   you are honing your drill skills ;).   Try to stay out of the embryo as you did.  You can scrap it a bit but any major wounds will likely doom it.  Be vigilant for fungus growth now as well.

@jimmyt other than just cleaning the seeds, soaking them in water for 24 hours, and putting them in a tupperware container filled with moist perlite, what else needs to be done?

Rinse the perlite daily? 

Ive got it sitting outside on my patio shielded from direct sun on a black glass coffee table. 

Temps have been in the high 90's. 

 

Also, I happened to find another picture of "mom" on the Butia's. I zoomed in to a picture I took from a balcony of the oasis pool.

 

ButiaMother2.jpg

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jimmyt

Ok.  Just make sure the tupperware is in the shade.  If the sun shines on it directly it will act like a "roaster bag".  Keep vigilante for fungus growth if you dont use a dilute fungicide in you water,  or you may want to try hydrogen peroxide diluted as below to wet the perlite.  You can always rinse the perlite with the dilute peroxide and drain off the excess liquid.  You dont have to exchange the water everyday but avoid letting fungus growth getting started in your containers.

To spray on sick or "fungusy" plants:

TO THIS AMOUNT OF WATER ADD THIS AMOUNT OF 3% HYDROGEN PEROXIDE --OR-- ADD THIS AMOUNT OF 35% HYDROGEN PEROXIDE
1 cup 1 tablespoon 1/4 teaspoon
1 pint 2 tablespoons 1/2 teaspoon
1 quart 1/4 cup 1 teaspoon
1 gallon 1 cup 1 tablespoon plus 1 teaspoon
5 gallons 5 cups 6 tablespoons plus 2 teaspoons
10 gallons 10 cups 3/4 cup plus 1 tablespoons plus 1 teaspoons
20 gallons 20 cups 1 and 1/2 cups plus 2 tablespoons plus 2 teaspoons

 

 

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Dartolution

Hey guys, 

Should I be keeping the sabal palmetto seedlings in full sun or part sun?

Right now they get direct morning sun for a few hours, and then shaded for the rest of the day under a patio canopy. 

 

 

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Rickybobby

My Sabal seedlings have been I full sun since the popped the surface and do just fine. They love that heat 

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Dartolution

Thanks @Rickybobby . Since I found them washed up on shore I was hesitant to put them in 9-10hrs of direct sunlight every day. 

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jimmyt

You can sun them.  Just be sure not to keep them in a sealed container in the sun = Roasted :rant:  and keep them moist.  Sabals are pretty tough. 

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