Turning a Water Oak Forest into a Tropical Paradise in NW Orlando

[RainforestCafe]

@Merlyn you've lost 180 agaves! That's quite a bit, but at least you definitely know what works and what doesn't at this point.

As for your palm survivals, the Leucothrinax Morrisii and Archontophoenix doesn't really surprise me because I'd seen reports of them surviving really cold temps even down to the low 20s. However, the Ptychosperma Macarthurii and Schefferi, also the Pinanga Coronata and Areca Triandra are very surprising to me. I really like those palms, but had never really considered giving them a shot. I'll definitely have to try them now.

With the Ptychosperma Macarthurii and Schefferi, were they both out in the open when they experienced the 25-26F and frost? Or did they have some kind of protection?

[Merlyn]

@RainforestCafe yeah I really expected all the agaves to immediately die after planting.  After a few survivors I kinda went nuts on buying agaves and have three large bed areas full of agaves, aloes, and cacti. 

I guess I was not surprised by the Leucothrinax, based on some reports and Kinzyjr's spreadsheet...but I'd written off most of the Thrinax group.  I had a Coccothrinax Crinita die at random, two Thrinax Radiata die after 25-27F with frost, but a Coccothrinax Barbadensis/Dussiana bounced back after several freezes and finally died from crown rot.  The Coccothrinax Argentea and a Zombia/Coccothrinax hybrid are both still doing well.  Both are planted right next to the driveway, so they probably get a little benefit from radiant heat at night.

I'd avoided Archontophoenix for a couple of years, not for any particular reason.  I think I just had some questionable results with Alexandrae small seedlings, and sorta ignored the rest of them.  But I got some Cunninghamiana from palmsOrl, Maxima from Meg, and Tuckeri from MeanGreen94z.  This winter wasn't an actual test...lots of cool days and nights but no freezes.

For the Ptychosperma:

• Macarthurii and Schefferi large seedlings 1-2' tall, died after 12/25/22 3 day freeze with frost, about 20 hours under freezing, no canopy on either.
• Slightly larger Macarthurii and Schefferi small clusters, both burned to the ground at the same 12/25/22 freeze but grew back. 
• Macarthurii large seedling 1-2' tall, survived 26F with frost but had canopy at the time
• Schefferi small cluster, was burned badly at 24.6F with frost, but grew back.  No canopy, full frost exposure.

In general I'd rate them similar to Caryota Mitis.  Neither species has made it to 4' tall though, so hard to say for sure.  I moved both surviving clusters to a slightly warmer spot in the front yard, and they are doing well so far.

[Merlyn]

And another theory on the Queen death (aside from the obvious Lethal Bronzing or Thielaviopsis possibilities).  Last fall I moved a small Livistona Speciosa to in between two Queens.  I had to cut some roots on that Queen, and then the Livistona died anyway.  It's possible this was the point of infection.  Obviously there's no way to know for sure, but this one died sometime this spring:

The Queen trunk on the right side is the one that died.  When I pulled the Speciosa out of the ground it had all rotten roots.

Either way, I need to think about replacements for those Queens.  They are growing so tall and so fast that they'll be 40+ feet by the end of the year.  As much as I like the idea of canopy, I don't want a bunch of root-unstable lightning rods next to my house.  Any thoughts on replacement ideas?  Fast growing but small diameter canopy and skinny trunk would be okay too...but moderate growers with a 10-15' canopy would be ideal.

[kinzyjr]

12 minutes ago, Merlyn said:

Either way, I need to think about replacements for those Queens.  They are growing so tall and so fast that they'll be 40+ feet by the end of the year.  As much as I like the idea of canopy, I don't want a bunch of root-unstable lightning rods next to my house.  Any thoughts on replacement ideas?  Fast growing but small diameter canopy and skinny trunk would be okay too...but moderate growers with a 10-15' canopy would be ideal.

Syagrus schizophylla?

Hyphaene coriacea tends to stay in that more moderate size range of 10-20 ft and give you a green Bismarckia look with some interesting fruit.

https://www.palmpedia.net/wiki/Hyphaene_coriacea

[RainforestCafe]

3 hours ago, Merlyn said:

Any thoughts on replacement ideas?  Fast growing but small diameter canopy and skinny trunk would be okay too...but moderate growers with a 10-15' canopy would be ideal.

What comes to my mind right away for a replacement that can still give you some canopy but not become overwhelming are some of the livistona species such as chinensis, decora, and nitida.

I was never interested in them before, but the more I research them, I'm really interested now and they're probably one of the next things I'm going to plant. They seem like really good "foundation plantings" for central Florida because I know they'll pretty much always be green and should be able to survive even a 1980s type freeze in my area... So bulletproof.

In my reading on them, especially nitida and decora, it seems like they grow really fast up to about 20' and then slow to a crawl, which is perfect IMO. And that would give you the 10-15' canopy diameter as well.

 

[Merlyn]

@kinzyjr Schizophylla would be great size-wise, but it would take 20 years to get a canopy!    That side of the house is shaded in the morning, which is one reason they got so tall in 4 years.  I think Hyphaene Coriacea would suffer over there due to the rich soil and shade.  I was thinking more along the lines of a thinner trunk clustering Dypsis/Chrysalidocarpus of some sort.  They are fairly close to the house and in the warmest area of the yard.  It might be enough to keep them happy in the winter.  And thin trunks are easy to chop down...unlike a Queen or King.

@RainforestCafe I do have several Livistona Chinensis and two small Sabal Causiarum over there, and I have been wanting to plant a Nitida somewhere too.  I really like the "weeping willow" look of a cluster of Nitida, though I am less enthused about Decora / Decipiens.  I probably should look at the area closer before I think about new plantings...it is pretty packed with large palms already!

There's 4 Kings, 5 Queens (was 6), 6 Chinese, 3 Sabal Mauritiiformis, 2 Sabal Causiarum, a big Phoenix Reclinata clump, a Pindo, 1 Caryota Mitis, and a bunch of smaller understory kind of stuff.  Maybe that's enough, even if I chop down all the Queens? 

BTW - on the left side of the diagram there's the Areca Triandra and Pinanga Coronata.  They are wedged in between Viburnum shrubberies on the left edge and a large Chinensis...not to mention the overhead Queens.

[Merlyn]

Here's a good evening photo of the West side, you can see that a couple of Queens are losing fronds faster than normal.  This could be lack of fertilizing in the fall, or maybe a disease.  The two big Chinese and Reclinata are getting some size to them, so maybe trashing a few Queens is a good idea.  Maybe I will just leave the areas empty.

In the front yard (just to the left corner of the above photo) is a Beccariophoenix triple, with about 3-4' spacing between them.  In the foreground is a Butia x Jubaea, with a wheelbarrow for scale. 

And further to the left in the front yard is this sad Butia, a supposed hybrid.  It's got yet ANOTHER crown infection, which has happened almost every winter.  I suspect that oak leaves are falling into the crown and trapping moisture, and then it starts getting fungal infections.  I'm treating it again, but if it doesn't start improving this summer it's getting trashed:

[Merlyn]

In the front yard this Encephalartos Gratus x Laurentianus is pushing a big 5 leaf flush.  It was about 8-10" caudex before, and has to be approaching 12" once this one is done:

And my favorite placement of Beccariophoenix Alfredii is looking good in the afternoon sun!

And I cleaned out the East side pathway from a few encroaching fronds.  Now I can walk through there without getting smacked in the eyeballs...er..too many times!

I also put down about 100lb of Sunniland 6-1-8 on the palms and cycads last week.  I bought a big 50lb bag of Lesco 24-0-11 to put on the bamboo and shrubberies.  Technically it's "lawn fertilizer," but bamboo are just really big grasses...right? 

[kinzyjr]

10 minutes ago, Merlyn said:

And my favorite placement of Beccariophoenix Alfredii is looking good in the afternoon sun!

I'd say you nailed it with this look. Perfect palm, perfect spot, perfect planting bed to compliment it.

[D. Morrowii]

3 minutes ago, kinzyjr said:

I'd say you nailed it with this look. Perfect palm, perfect spot, perfect planting bed to compliment it.

Was going to say the same thing @kinzyjr that thing looks great and very at home there! 
That West side view looks pretty cool as well  @Merlyn even if the Queens are a little under the weather. 

[Merlyn]

So this picture is concerning to me, because there are a lot of Sylvestris dying of Lethal Bronzing in the area.  In the neighborhood next to me someone brought in a 6' trunk palm...which promptly died of LB.  On the other side a Sabal died with suspicious-looking leaves, and across the street from that one another Sylvestris died the same way.  And there's a lot of Sylvestris dying along 46 and at the 417-I4 interchange area.  The two local nurseries quit carrying them. 

I fertilized last week and don't recall seeing the two brown fronds in the center.  But I also clearly missed seeing the dead Queen, so maybe I just wasn't paying attention.  While it's not clear if this one is infected (or just badly magnesium-deficient), I am going to keep an eye on it for further decline.

[kinzyjr]

1 hour ago, Merlyn said:

While it's not clear if this one is infected (or just badly magnesium-deficient), I am going to keep an eye on it for further decline.

Keep an eye on the spear leaf for premature death and/or if the entire crown starts to shrink or close up like it is desiccating.  If either of those happen, time for it to go.  The days when Phoenix species were lifetime palms are sorely missed.

[Merlyn]

@kinzyjr I haven't looked into the crown yet, but I need to go take a bunch of photos asap so I can compare objectively before/after.  Thanks for the tips on recognizing the early signs!  I've waffled for the past 2+ years about just trashing the Sylvesters anyway...on the premise that they are eventually going to die from LB and I shouldn't waste the time or yard space on them.  If this one turns out to be clearly infected, I probably will cut up and trash the other two at the same time.

I just noticed that a neighbor has a bunch of 10' trunk Roebellini dying.  One has looked miserable for a couple of years, but now it's dead and 2 or 3 others are clearly dying.  Right next to that house is a dead Butia that seems to have died of crown rot.

[RainforestCafe]

On 4/12/2024 at 7:35 PM, Merlyn said:

Here's a good evening photo of the West side, you can see that a couple of Queens are losing fronds faster than normal.  This could be lack of fertilizing in the fall, or maybe a disease.  The two big Chinese and Reclinata are getting some size to them, so maybe trashing a few Queens is a good idea.  Maybe I will just leave the areas empty.

Yeah that is a lot of stuff there, maybe you don't need anymore 😂

But the way you set up the different heights and layers, those queens work perfectly. It's the perfect place for some archontophoenix, but it might be too cold for them in that spot. 

How old is that Chinese fan palm to the left? It looks pretty decent sized.

[Merlyn]

@RainforestCafe blasphemy!  You can always use more palms!    I originally planted the Queens to provide some quick shade to the West side of the house, and was always planning to cut them down someday.  I just didn't expect it to be only 3 years later!

The two Chinese fans are actually about the same size, it's just the picture angle that makes the far right end one look smaller.  I bought two just barely trunking pots from the big box store on a big sale for $100.  Here's an old before/after picture from right after planting in April 2018:

In the bottom picture you can see I added a pair of 3 gallon Livistona Chinensis on either side of the bigger ones.  That way as one gets tall there's a couple growing up behind it.  And you can just see the Reclinata cluster behind the center oak.

[RainforestCafe]

The change on the side of your house in just a few years is crazy with your before/after pics. I always love gardening before/after pics. That's what's great about Florida though 😂 you don't have to wait long for your plants to get big.

Whenever I'm planting things, I always measure out a good distance between things, and I look at the little 3 gallon plant sitting there like "there's no way this guy is going to reach over all this distance". But sure enough it does! Haha