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Did I mess up with my Pindo Palm


The3ngineer

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I planted a large (4' trunk) Pindo palm yesterday with 'Miracle Grow Garden Soil - Cactus Palm and Citrus', the problem is that I didn't mix 50/50 with my native soil. I dug the whole deeper and wider than the root ball, put a few inches of the miracle grown soil in the bottom of the hole, placed the tree, and then back-filled with the miracle grow soil. Should I dig it up and redo? I'm reading online that the soil is too dense for potting and will suffocate the roots so now I'm scared it will do the same in the ground. It also says that not mixing will create a distinct soil barrier that might stop the roots from growing.  I called Miracle Grow and they "think" it will be fine.  Thanks in advance.  

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Honestly probably depends on the soil conditions you have in your yard.

If you have heavy poorly draining soil, you just essentially created a bog, where water will fill into and sit in the area of "good" new soil.

I learned the hard way about digging giant pits into my clay soil, and filling them up with nice well drained sand and compost.  I just created underground containers that don't drain.

I killed one of my first palms a 15 gallon windmill that I splurged on, by doing the same.

If you have well drained sand, probably not going to be an issue, but I don't have experience on that front.  I'm sure you will get some input.

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any organic material under the rootball will in a year or two be digested, gone.  This means that the palm will settle into the hole in a depression, as organic material disappears.  With all the concrete around it, I'd say it won't dry cycle quickly and you will run the risk of root rot, especially in winter.  The pindo(butia of some kind) are dry savannah palms, they like a good dry cycle which you have made difficult to achieve with planting and placement.  I'd remove it, elevate that palm 6-8" with some landscape block, and keep the organic material to the sides of the root ball, not underneath the root ball.  Try to ensure that the soil under the root ball drains well by amending with perlite or sand.

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Formerly in Gilbert AZ, zone 9a/9b. Now in Palmetto, Florida Zone 9b/10a??

 

Tom Blank

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Me myself?, i'd dig it up and mix the better soil with the native soil more..  maybe raise it a little as well. And yes, lol.. no worries  we've all done this..

Years ago when i took several advanced hort certification courses, there was a term my instructors used often called "bath tubbing"  which, in simple terms refers to exactly what you described, ie: planting x specimen in a "tub" of good soil, but not mixing it with the native soil to create a transition for the roots to grow through as they spread out.

Some plants will push through such an un ammended transition w/ little issue.. others will push roots to the edge of the good soil and stop, ..Or greatly reduce moving out into the less than great soil.  

 

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Nick,

Welcome to Palm Talk!  I grew palms in south Tyler clay so I suspect your soil isn't much different than that.  Pindos are pretty tolerant of clay but if yours is really hard clay it won't hurt to plant it a little high to help with drainage.  You've received good advice for your palm.  Pindos are also very easy to transplant - the largest one I have here in San Antonio has been dug up and moved 5 times and is doing great, although not as good as it could have been if it had been left planted in one place!  Also it would be beneficial to water it using drip if it's in clay that way the water wont just run off.  Even though they are drought tolerant they will still need a fair amount of irrigation to get it established in our heat.

Jon

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Jon Sunder

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Well, not the news I was hoping for. I really appreciate all the input from everyone. It looks like I'll be renting a skid steer and pulling it back out in the next day or two. I'll let everyone know how it turns out.  

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Miracle-gro anything in a bag (garden/potting soil) is pure horse - $#*&. Sorry to burst your bubble, way too much peat in it.

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I bathtubbed a few citrus trees here in our gumbo mud/clay with disastrous results. 

In fact I have an entire area in my front yard where the previous home owner, we believe, filled in a low spot with silty topsoil. This soil is great for a raised bed, but I basically have a gigantic spongy bathtub surrounded by native clay. The lawn here is trash grass and always looks horrible. We haven’t got around to paying someone to correct it.

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Okay I’ll throw in my .02 cents. When I look back I probably planted half a dozen palms just like you’ve discribed. I since learned a more proper method to planting and mixing in part with native soil. Now looking back, all of those palms are growing and I haven’t lost any in the last few years since. 

Now since you’ve just planted, it may be worth removing and mixing with a higher quality soil for peace of mind. 

On the other hand, one of my palms I planted was a Butia and I planted it just as you have (in the lawn, not surround with a concrete barrier) it’s since doubled in size in roughly two years and is locked in hard.

Just my experience, your experiences will vary.

 

Max  

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12 hours ago, The3ngineer said:

I planted a large (4' trunk) Pindo palm yesterday with 'Miracle Grow Garden Soil - Cactus Palm and Citrus', the problem is that I didn't mix 50/50 with my native soil. I dug the whole deeper and wider than the root ball, put a few inches of the miracle grown soil in the bottom of the hole, placed the tree, and then back-filled with the miracle grow soil. Should I dig it up and redo? I'm reading online that the soil is too dense for potting and will suffocate the roots so now I'm scared it will do the same in the ground. It also says that not mixing will create a distinct soil barrier that might stop the roots from growing.  I called Miracle Grow and they "think" it will be fine.  Thanks in advance.  

IMG_4125.jpg

On the bright side you have a beautiful pool. :)

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You should test your drainage when you remove the palm.  Fill it with two inches of water.  Measure the water left as time passes.  If most of it is gone in an hour or two you have good drainage.  If most is still there after 24 hours it won't matter what kind of potting soil you add to the backfill because the pindo palm's roots will most likely rot in the winter.

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Ok, I pulled it out. I hated to do it but I'm glad I did as there was about 5"-6" of miracle gro garden soil directly under the root ball. Presumably (as mentioned above) this garden soil would have decomposed or been consumed and either left a void or allowed the palm to sink. I'm performing the water test now to make sure the hole will drain (I'm pretty sure it will drain). I hope I haven't stressed it too much and killed it right from the start. I'm trying to finalize my approach for tomorrow. I really appreciate everyone who took time out of their life to offer advice to a total stranger. 

Tomorrows Plan: 

1. Mix native soil and perlite to fill bottom of hole. Should I use sand and what ratio of perlite/sand to native soil?

2. Place tree leaving it 2"-3" above grade, this is how I had it and recommended by the palm tree place where I bought it?

3. Backfill with 50/50 native soil and Miracle grow garden soil? 

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“I really appreciate everyone who took time out of their life to offer advice to a total stranger. “

Of course. That’s what this community is all about right?

You ask 10 people you will probably get 10 different answers. I have heavy clay soil. I like to use a garden soil (miracle grow or anything else) mixed with a palm and cactus mix, additional sand and perlite. Occasionally I will even throw in a little drainage rock to the mix. Lately I have been using just a little of my native soil. But I am certainly no expert. The link below is what Jungle Music wrote about planting palms.

http://www.junglemusic.net/articles/HowToPlantAPalm.html

This article recommends for clay soil to use 3 parts native soil for 1 part of your organic mixture. I think I have found that was too much native soil for me. And I no longer add in any wood chips.  If you use just miracle grow and palm and cactus mix your soil would turn out “spoungey” and that’s no good.

Good luck.

Edited by The Gerg
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36 minutes ago, The Gerg said:

“I really appreciate everyone who took time out of their life to offer advice to a total stranger. “

Of course. That’s what this community is all about right?

You ask 10 people you will probably get 10 different answers. I have heavy clay soil. I like to use a garden soil (miracle grow or anything else) mixed with a palm and cactus mix, additional sand and perlite. Occasionally I will even throw in a little drainage rock to the mix. Lately I have been using just a little of my native soil. But I am certainly no expert. The link below is what Jungle Music wrote about planting palms.

http://www.junglemusic.net/articles/HowToPlantAPalm.html

This article recommends for clay soil to use 3 parts native soil for 1 part of your organic mixture. I think I have found that was too much native soil for me. And I no longer add in any wood chips.  If you use just miracle grow and palm and cactus mix your soil would turn out “spoungey” and that’s no good.

Good luck.

Ultimately, the spongy soil was the driving factor for pulling it out. I could step on the surrounding soil and it would compress 1” or so...it just didn’t seem right. So you would follow the 3 parts native soil to 1 part cactus mix and 1 part sand? That seems to agree with everything I’ve read. I think I’ll do the native soil and sand or perlite under the root ball so everything’s is nice and supported. 

 

Thanks again for responding 

Edited by The3ngineer
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When I bought the Miracle Gro Garden soil at Home Depot they had sprinklers watering the outside plants so the bags were wet and fully saturated. When I picked up the bags they were really heavy and felt like normal soil...so I didn’t think twice. Now that everything is dry the soil is light, spongy, and airy...you can tell it’s mostly wood chips (40-60 % Forrest products it says on the bag). 

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I don't want to interject too much here because that is a nice palm and I have no pindo experience.    But I use a small rototiller to mix large amounts of soil on a tarp or pile nearby.  I think you did the right thing here as the 100% miracle grow soil might kill it. I would use 50% or more native soil.  

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they grow pretty good in sand heere in FLorida --- most important thing is the drainage to keep the roots dry  and aerated during the winter -- richer soil is good but the most important thing is drainage --- just like humans air is the most important fer survival then water than    food 

 

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Pindos are pretty tough, I have seen them growing in ignored pots with no fertilizer and nearly no soil, and they looked pretty much okay.  I've been told that the only thing that really hurts them is too much water.  It's unlikely you hurt it with a week in marginal or mucky soil, but getting a good native soil/perlite/sand mix is a good choice.  Lindo's grow new roots very slowly, based in a research paper I read.

Mine are planted in pure native soil with no amendments.  In the NW Orlando area means primarily sand with some decomposed oak leaves from 35 years of water oak canopy.  I give mine about 1 gallon of water per morning, which might be too much, especially in the rainy season here with about an inch of rain per day!

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Thanks again to everyone who responded. I finished removing and replanting the Pindo last Wednesday and so far it seems to be doing great.  The fronds appear darker and the spears have been growing by over an inch each day.  The guy I bought it from was very adamant that over watering is what kills most Pindos so he recommended that I water once a week.  I'm keeping a close eye on it and I'll let everyone know how it does. I went to look for a new palm today and I have some questions so be sure to check out my new thread. 

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I don't think you bought that from us, but whoever you were talking to was absolutely correct; overwatering will kill them faster than no water here.   If youre over in Dallas/Plano area you're in that dark clay and you need to water only once a week, absolutely no more.

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3 hours ago, TexasColdHardyPalms said:

I don't think you bought that from us, but whoever you were talking to was absolutely correct; overwatering will kill them faster than no water here.   If youre over in Dallas/Plano area you're in that dark clay and you need to water only once a week, absolutely no more.

I did not purchase from you guys but I will definitely stop by to take a look at what you have before buying my next palm. Does your website or Facebook page keep updated inventory?

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  • 1 year later...

Hope your Pindo is doing great, while this is not a reply about your original topic, I wanted to ask how messy has the fruit been to clean up from your palm when it falls in the floor. Many people say do not put a Pindo near concrete or at least do it 3m away from it to avoid the fruit mess.

I want to install two palms near the deeper end of our pool and I am hesitating only because of the issue of the fruit becoming a mess. I do like the looks of the Pindo much better than the Windmill, but I could change to Windmill if the Pindo is too messy.

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