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knikfar

Anyone know how to tell what kind of Sabal?

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knikfar

Hi all, 

     The attached photo is of an unknown variety of sabal palm that I picked seeds from this past weekend. The tree is located in Winterville, NC, zone 8a and survived the brutal winter of 2017/2018 when temps were below freezing for a week. One night the low temp was -4 and it was 1 degree f on another. This tree survived and it's clearly not in a protected area. So I'm inclined to believe its a Sabal Bald Head Island. I collected over 200 seeds and I plan to try and germinate them but I'd love confirmation on the type of Sabal it is. Anyone know of a place where I could get one of the seeds tested to find out? Also, if I can get the seeds to germinate, I plan on eventually planting them in Raleigh NC, on the 8a side of 7b. My thought is that if this tree could stand the temps it did, it should definitely be ok in Raleigh. 

Cold Hardy Sabal Palm.jpg

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kinzyjr

Couldn't tell you for sure whether it is the Bald Head Island variant, but regardless, if it survived a below zero blast and a single digit night as well then it has good genes.  -4F appears to be a record low for this location.

201907081515_WintervilleNC.png

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knikfar

I agree! So I'm hoping for the best with germinating its seeds. I don't know if that -4 degree night actually set that record or tied it. But it was extreme for that part of the country. 

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RJ

It appears to be a commercial planting so I would be surprised if it's a BHI Sabal. Perhaps luck of the draw jeans or the pavement around it saved it. Last years cold up north was a 100 year freeze. Coldest since 1989 and the longest coldest stretch since 1917'ish. 

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palmsOrl

Yeah that palm must indeed have some good genes.  Seeds from this palm should be distributed for cultivation at and north of the edge of the native range of Sabal palmetto.

It is remarkable that Raleigh has only been down to -4F as the all-time record low, while Tallahassee (in Fl) has been to -2F.

Aren’t the petioles on Bald Head Island Sabal palmetto longer and more curved than other variants?

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Allen
6 hours ago, kinzyjr said:

Couldn't tell you for sure whether it is the Bald Head Island variant, but regardless, if it survived a below zero blast and a single digit night as well then it has good genes.  -4F appears to be a record low for this location.

201907081515_WintervilleNC.png

It is unlikely it did that (Survived -4).  Could have been planted hurricane cut recent years.    

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kinzyjr
43 minutes ago, Allen said:

It is unlikely it did that (Survived -4).  Could have been planted hurricane cut recent years.    

I am only going off the information presented in the original post by @knikfar.

 

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mdsonofthesouth
6 hours ago, RJ said:

It appears to be a commercial planting so I would be surprised if it's a BHI Sabal. Perhaps luck of the draw jeans or the pavement around it saved it. Last years cold up north was a 100 year freeze. Coldest since 1989 and the longest coldest stretch since 1917'ish. 

 

Yeah the 2018 event was a record for sure for most of the east coast. We hit 3F ultimate low and stayed single digits for many nights and somehting like 200-250 hours (I honestly forget...and that may be by design) bellow or at freezing. It was a nightmare to say the least. 

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RJ
2 hours ago, mdsonofthesouth said:

 

Yeah the 2018 event was a record for sure for most of the east coast. We hit 3F ultimate low and stayed single digits for many nights and somehting like 200-250 hours (I honestly forget...and that may be by design) bellow or at freezing. It was a nightmare to say the least. 

Gary at Gary's Nursery in NC lost most of his Sabals and some of his Trachy's. 

 

 

 

 

 

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mdsonofthesouth

So sad. I didn't lose any palms here but I protected mine during most of the event, although the tent broke for the last days. This is why my chamaerops saw single digit(around 8-9F) for extended periods. Granted what I did only kept the palms in the 10-15F range....better than the ultimate low of 3F!!!!! I will NEVER forget that freeze and neither will my kids, grand kids and if I'm lucky great grand kids. 

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palmsOrl
8 hours ago, RJ said:

Gary at Gary's Nursery in NC lost most of his Sabals and some of his Trachy's. 

 

 

 

 

 

Interesting you should mention your dogwood.  Are we talking Cornus florida?  If so, is this temperate tree species on the cold sensitive side (as temperate trees go)?  I saw it in PA here and there, so perhaps it is the southern ecotypes that are cold sensitive.

My parents had dogwood tree in front of the house in Maitland, Fl in the 1980s, and according to my mom, they were killed by the 1989 freeze.  The only way that I can imagine this happening is if (on account of being in the Orlando area) the trees were still in active growth.  Temperate trees in active growth can easily be killed by hard freezes.

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RJ
19 minutes ago, palmsOrl said:

Interesting you should mention your dogwood.  Are we talking Cornus florida?  If so, is this temperate tree species on the cold sensitive side (as temperate trees go)?  I saw it in PA here and there, so perhaps it is the southern ecotypes that are cold sensitive.

My parents had dogwood tree in front of the house in Maitland, Fl in the 1980s, and according to my mom, they were killed by the 1989 freeze.  The only way that I can imagine this happening is if (on account of being in the Orlando area) the trees were still in active growth.  Temperate trees in active growth can easily be killed by hard freezes.

These are not my trees. This is the fellow who runs Gary's Nursery https://www.facebook.com/GarysNursery/ He's been around for a long time and is well known in the palm community in the SE. 

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mdsonofthesouth
1 hour ago, palmsOrl said:

Interesting you should mention your dogwood.  Are we talking Cornus florida?  If so, is this temperate tree species on the cold sensitive side (as temperate trees go)?  I saw it in PA here and there, so perhaps it is the southern ecotypes that are cold sensitive.

My parents had dogwood tree in front of the house in Maitland, Fl in the 1980s, and according to my mom, they were killed by the 1989 freeze.  The only way that I can imagine this happening is if (on account of being in the Orlando area) the trees were still in active growth.  Temperate trees in active growth can easily be killed by hard freezes.

 

Cornus Florida is native here in the DMV(DE, MD, VA) and are part of many "native tree" giveaways. Just got 10 from the county for free to match the 4 mature specimens I already have along with 40 loblollies! They do very well here, but I cannot speak for north of the Mason Dixon as it seems once you cross that line trees like Crepe Myrtles, southern yellow pines (aside from a shortleaf here and there) don't seem to grow, while they thrive here. 

Edited by mdsonofthesouth
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Chester B

FYI - I grew Cornus florida in Zone 4B, along with many other types of dogwood.

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palmsOrl

So it must be that the dogwoods were not dormant when the freeze hit.  My understanding is that the foliage of temperate deciduous trees (even many cool temperate ones) is freeze sensitive and the tree itself can be killed if the freeze is hard enough.

I had no idea NC had a 100 year freeze early last year.

Edited by palmsOrl

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RJ
22 minutes ago, Chester B said:

FYI - I grew Cornus florida in Zone 4B, along with many other types of dogwood.

Yes I also had native dogwood when I lived up north. It was a small understory tree with pretty blah flowers. 

8 minutes ago, palmsOrl said:

So it must be that the dogwoods were not dormant when the freeze hit.  My understanding is that the foliage of temperate deciduous trees (even many cool temperate ones) is freeze sensitive and the tree itself can be killed if the freeze is hard enough.

I had no idea NC had a 100 year freeze early last year.

Gary's dogwood survived the freeze, his comment was post Florence regarding it being blown over slightly.  

"Dead Windmill Palms from the January freeze. I was thankful that my beautiful old dogwood survived the freeze but now has uprooted and hanging over the creek."

 

Post Freeze pics can be seen here:

https://www.facebook.com/pg/GarysNursery/photos/?tab=album&album_id=1427381894037167&ref=page_internal

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knikfar

@kinzyjr I can give you the street address and you can check Google streetview if you don't believe me. Then you can check accuweather's climate history for Winterville NC. That's the data I'm relying on. I pass that location often and the restaurant has been closed down for two years or more. So there'd be no reason anyone would replace that tree. But I see it often enough to know for sure. I would have seen it being replaced. Instead, I saw it damaged and recover. 

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knikfar

I visited Gary's Nursery a few weeks ago and go to talk to him. Very interesting man and I'm so happy he puts so much effort into growing cold hardy palms. He said he has a butia x Jubea that survived at his house. It completely defoliated but re-sprouted. I wish I could get that to survive in Raleigh. 

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kinzyjr
11 minutes ago, knikfar said:

@kinzyjr I can give you the street address and you can check Google streetview if you don't believe me. Then you can check accuweather's climate history for Winterville NC. That's the data I'm relying on. I pass that location often and the restaurant has been closed down for two years or more. So there'd be no reason anyone would replace that tree. But I see it often enough to know for sure. I would have seen it being replaced. Instead, I saw it damaged and recover. 

It's not a lack of trust at all on my part.  Please don't take my comment above as a lack of trust on my part.  If others did, then the corroborating conversation between @RJ and @mdsonofthesouth should add credence to it.  You can feel free to post your evidence regardless to refute the past, present or future critics.

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RJ
13 minutes ago, knikfar said:

I visited Gary's Nursery a few weeks ago and go to talk to him. Very interesting man and I'm so happy he puts so much effort into growing cold hardy palms. He said he has a butia x Jubea that survived at his house. It completely defoliated but re-sprouted. I wish I could get that to survive in Raleigh. 

It did survive, barely with protection.  The palm in question is at least an F2 or possible an F3 from the late Dr. Wilcox . It appears to have self seeded. 

  

I have no doubt the sabal you pictured survived. As I pointed out, perhaps it was luck of the draw or good genes...  or even a micro climate in the area. Is there a nearby body of water perhaps? Is it on a hill that cold air can drain from, protected from wind? They're lots of factors that can come into play here. A degree or two in temp cam mean living to fight again another day or giving up the ghost. 

 

 

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NC_Palms
On 7/8/2019 at 3:01 PM, knikfar said:

Hi all, 

     The attached photo is of an unknown variety of sabal palm that I picked seeds from this past weekend. The tree is located in Winterville, NC, zone 8a and survived the brutal winter of 2017/2018 when temps were below freezing for a week. One night the low temp was -4 and it was 1 degree f on another. This tree survived and it's clearly not in a protected area. So I'm inclined to believe its a Sabal Bald Head Island. I collected over 200 seeds and I plan to try and germinate them but I'd love confirmation on the type of Sabal it is. Anyone know of a place where I could get one of the seeds tested to find out? Also, if I can get the seeds to germinate, I plan on eventually planting them in Raleigh NC, on the 8a side of 7b. My thought is that if this tree could stand the temps it did, it should definitely be ok in Raleigh. 

Cold Hardy Sabal Palm.jpg

Since BHI Sabal palmetto isn't that common to come across and that this palm is planted in a parking lot, I would suspect that it is just a typical transplant that was brought up here from Florida. The FL transplants are a hit or miss in Pitt County but when you buy small potted specimens, the survival rate heavily increases. In your scenario, growing Sabal palmetto from seed and planting it in Raliegh should have positive results. 

And where is this in Winterville? I collected a bunch of Sabal palmetto seeds in a parking lot across the highway from PCC and the Taco Bell. 

 

20 hours ago, palmsOrl said:

Yeah that palm must indeed have some good genes.  Seeds from this palm should be distributed for cultivation at and north of the edge of the native range of Sabal palmetto.

It is remarkable that Raleigh has only been down to -4F as the all-time record low, while Tallahassee (in Fl) has been to -2F.

Aren’t the petioles on Bald Head Island Sabal palmetto longer and more curved than other variants?

The inland panhandle of Florida gets outright cold for its latitude. Cape Hatteras sees fewer freezes than Tallahassee and has a much warmer record low temperature of only 6ºF. Compare that with the record low in Jacksonville, FL of 7ºF. 

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NC_Palms

In the Northeast, Cornus florida seems to be absent in the inland areas. I would suspect the reasoning of this to be that the Great Lakes and the Atlantic Ocean moderate the climate so this species can thrive, as it is found as far north as southeastern, coastal Maine but absent in parts of northern Pennsylvania. 

I used to grow Cornus florida in Pennsylvania zone 6b when I lived there and I still grow it here (where it is the state flower). A temperate species for sure!

Cornus_florida_range_map_1.png.d78e6bee0e23b0b179fe18178a362d31.png

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knikfar
4 hours ago, NC_Palms said:

Since BHI Sabal palmetto isn't that common to come across and that this palm is planted in a parking lot, I would suspect that it is just a typical transplant that was brought up here from Florida. The FL transplants are a hit or miss in Pitt County but when you buy small potted specimens, the survival rate heavily increases. In your scenario, growing Sabal palmetto from seed and planting it in Raliegh should have positive results. 

And where is this in Winterville? I collected a bunch of Sabal palmetto seeds in a parking lot across the highway from PCC and the Taco Bell. 

 

The inland panhandle of Florida gets outright cold for its latitude. Cape Hatteras sees fewer freezes than Tallahassee and has a much warmer record low temperature of only 6ºF. Compare that with the record low in Jacksonville, FL of 7ºF. 

This is one of several palmettos in the parking lot of the closed down restaurant that's right in front of Aldi. 

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NC_Palms
28 minutes ago, knikfar said:

This is one of several palmettos in the parking lot of the closed down restaurant that's right in front of Aldi. 

Yep! I've been there. I've collected seeds off of this palm last winter. 

IMG_1767.thumb.JPG.e174edab674ffa48c65a0997cb4d9c19.JPG

 

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knikfar
9 minutes ago, NC_Palms said:

Yep! I've been there. I've collected seeds off of this palm last winter. 

IMG_1767.thumb.JPG.e174edab674ffa48c65a0997cb4d9c19.JPG

 

That's the same tree!!!!! Were you able to sprout your seeds? And if so, how long did it take? I'm planting mine tomorrow. 

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Joe NC
On 7/8/2019 at 3:01 PM, knikfar said:

So I'm inclined to believe its a Sabal Bald Head Island.

battery1.thumb.jpg.7240ca3efd9fcbe9d313a67b1e86bb23.jpgThe BHI S. palmetto also all seem to shed their old boots once they trunk.

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palmsOrl

Joe, that BHI Sabal palmetto definitely has a distinctive look, compared to the variant(s) down here in Florida.

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NC_Palms
On 7/9/2019 at 10:47 PM, knikfar said:

That's the same tree!!!!! Were you able to sprout your seeds? And if so, how long did it take? I'm planting mine tomorrow. 

Yep I sprouted a few. It took me about 4 weeks for mine to sprout in the summer heat. S. palmetto always takes a long time for me to germinate for whatever reason. 

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NC_Palms
On 7/9/2019 at 10:47 PM, knikfar said:

That's the same tree!!!!! Were you able to sprout your seeds? And if so, how long did it take? I'm planting mine tomorrow. 

Yep I sprouted a few. It took me about 4 weeks for mine to sprout in the summer heat. S. palmetto always takes a long time for me to germinate for whatever reason. 

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palmsOrl

This species usually takes one to months to sprout for me here, in my limited experience.

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kinzyjr

The Sabal seeds I have collected are pretty variable in regard to germination time.  In general, you can expect the bulk of the seeds to germinate within 6 weeks if you are using the standard 85F-95F with a community pot or the baggie method.  You may be tempted to toss out the remainder, but it is likely that they are viable.  I have had them come up as much as a year after sowing.  If you toss them out, toss them somewhere they will be appreciated if they sprout.

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knikfar

I have a tray of Birmingham Sabal seeds I've been trying to sprout since late March. I put them on a warming mat for a while and have them on my balcony now. Still no sign of any sprouts. I picked the seeds last fall and kept them in my freezing until I was ready to sow them. I'm not sure if that had any affect on them or not. But I had a similar experience with sabal minor seeds a few years back. They probably took 8 months to sprout. 

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