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buffy

Special JuBu

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buffy

So we bought this hybrid about 10 years ago as a JuBu. Seemed more BuJu in form, but didn't think much of it.  It's still regrowing its crown. Hasn't flowered in two years. I was looking at it today and realized a few special things:

1. It survived 8F unprotected. 

2. This palm sets viable seeds all on its own. Yep folks, self fertile viable seeds.  There's not a mature Butia for miles.

IMG_20190706_183058497.jpg

IMG_20190706_183121612.jpg

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OC2Texaspalmlvr

:drool:8F self fertile = winner. What's the story behind the curve in the trunk ? Nice specimen definitely looks more BuJu , whats the diameter on the trunk ? 

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buffy

Naturally curved out on that slope. That's a 9 year old next to it. Trunk is intermediate between Jub and Butia.

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RJ

Perhaps an F2? Regardless great looking palm. Like the trunk :greenthumb:

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buffy

Perhaps

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buffy

Perhaps JuBuBu. What would we look for?

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Ben in Norcal

Looks like Butia x Jubaea to me.  I'd expect less re-curve for the reverse.  That said, these things are variable...so you will never know.  It's going to be all just speculation.

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Steve in Florida
4 hours ago, buffy said:

Perhaps JuBuBu. What would we look for?

Do you have close-up pics of the flowers?  What size are the seeds and how many chambers do they have?

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buffy

We'll have to wait until flowering

 

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Fusca
On 7/6/2019 at 6:40 PM, buffy said:

So we bought this hybrid about 10 years ago

How big was it when you bought it?  Strap-leaf seedling?  Looks nice!  I have a regular Butia that I bought as a 7-gal six years ago and it has yet to flower and only about 1/3 the trunk size of yours.

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OC2Texaspalmlvr
10 hours ago, Fusca said:

How big was it when you bought it?  Strap-leaf seedling?  Looks nice!  I have a regular Butia that I bought as a 7-gal six years ago and it has yet to flower and only about 1/3 the trunk size of yours.

2 slow growing palms as parents we definitely can say hybrid vigor here ? :interesting:

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Fusca
16 hours ago, OC2Texaspalmlvr said:

2 slow growing palms as parents we definitely can say hybrid vigor here ? :interesting:

That's what I was thinking, but to be fair my Butia has been moved a few times so didn't help its speed any.  I'm hoping that my BxJ F2 seedlings grow faster than my Butia!  I think the JxB hybrids grow faster than the BxJ hybrids.

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RJ
13 minutes ago, Fusca said:

That's what I was thinking, but to be fair my Butia has been moved a few times so didn't help its speed any.  I'm hoping that my BxJ F2 seedlings grow faster than my Butia!  I think the JxB hybrids grow faster than the BxJ hybrids.

Agree, it's grown quite quickly for only being 10 years old. Plenty of water right there helps I'm sure. 

 

 

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buffy

It was in a 5 gallon pot.  Probably 4 years old. 

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OC2Texaspalmlvr
5 hours ago, buffy said:

It was in a 5 gallon pot.  Probably 4 years old. 

Awesome growth no matter how you look at it , either genetics , placement or care, prolly all of the above. 

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knikfar
On 7/7/2019 at 6:22 AM, RJ said:

Perhaps an F2? Regardless great looking palm. Like the trunk :greenthumb:

Just curious, I've seen some people refer to different plants using that "F2" type category. Can you tell me what that means? 

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Fusca
12 minutes ago, knikfar said:

Just curious, I've seen some people refer to different plants using that "F2" type category. Can you tell me what that means? 

The F2 refers to a germinated seed from a hybrid parent.  So if we assume that Cameron's JxB hybrid in this thread was a result of hand pollinating Jubaea with Butia pollen, then any viable seeds that he germinates collected from his JxB hybrid are considered "F2".

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RJ
24 minutes ago, knikfar said:

Just curious, I've seen some people refer to different plants using that "F2" type category. Can you tell me what that means? 

Sure. The F(#) is used to describe the linage of the palm. Often times first cross hybrids are not self fertile. Meaning they need another nearby cousin to make viable seeds. 

(JXB) =F1

(JXB)XB =F2

((JXB)XB)XB = F3

 

As the original F1 is back crossed with another (B)utia the percentage of of Jubaea decreases and as do the Jubea characteristic. At the same time the offspring start to become self fertile, meaning that the palm can pollinate itself producing viable seeds. 

5 minutes ago, Fusca said:

The F2 refers to a germinated seed from a hybrid parent.  So if we assume that Cameron's JxB hybrid in this thread was a result of hand pollinating Jubaea with Butia pollen, then any viable seeds that he germinates collected from his JxB hybrid are considered "F2".

Is it still considered an F2 if the original hybrid in crossed with another butia or Jubaea? Seeing as JxB is considered pretty much self sterile.

Edited by RJ
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knikfar
3 minutes ago, RJ said:

Sure. The F(#) is used to describe the linage of the palm. Often times first cross hybrids are not self fertile. Meaning they need another nearby cousin to make viable seeds. 

(JXB) =F1

(JXB)XB =F2

((JXB)XB)XB = F3

 

As the original F1 is back crossed with another (B)utia the percentage of of Jubaea decreases and as do the Jubea characteristic. At the same time the offspring start to become self fertile, meaning that the palm can pollinate itself producing viable seeds. 

Is it still considered an F2 if the original hybrid in crossed with another butia or Jubaea? Seeing as JxB is considered pretty much self sterile.

Thank you for explaining that. I really appreciate it. It would seem that each additional generation would become less hardy as it loses it's percentage of Jubea and becomes more and more butia. Is that a correct assumption? I live in zone 7b, just over the line from 8a. So if I'm ever to get one of these to survive here, I'll need the hardiest version available. 

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RJ
19 minutes ago, knikfar said:

Thank you for explaining that. I really appreciate it. It would seem that each additional generation would become less hardy as it loses it's percentage of Jubea and becomes more and more butia. Is that a correct assumption? I live in zone 7b, just over the line from 8a. So if I'm ever to get one of these to survive here, I'll need the hardiest version available. 

I'm not 100% sure I buy that Jubaea is significantly hardier then Butia. You have to remember that Jubeae comes from pretty arid places that are dry. Dry cold is a lot easier on palms then wet cold. Since Jubeae doesn't grow in warm humid area's very well it's hard to compare the two. Butia is well adapted to the climate in the SE. So, it's questionable how well a F1 JXB will do in the SE, however BXJ seems to do fairly well. I have yet to see conclusive evidence that BXJ is significantly hardier then Butia or Jubaea by itself perhaps other PT readers can add to that. 

Also remember that when you cross two different palms the Mother tends to pass along more of the resulting plant's traits. The mother is always listed first, daddy the pollen doner second. 

 

So in this example:      J(Mother) X B (Father) , 

Edited by RJ
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Fusca
23 minutes ago, RJ said:

Sure. The F(#) is used to describe the linage of the palm. Often times first cross hybrids are not self fertile. Meaning they need another nearby cousin to make viable seeds. 

(JXB) =F1

(JXB)XB =F2

((JXB)XB)XB = F3

 

As the original F1 is back crossed with another (B)utia the percentage of of Jubaea decreases and as do the Jubea characteristic. At the same time the offspring start to become self fertile, meaning that the palm can pollinate itself producing viable seeds. 

Is it still considered an F2 if the original hybrid in crossed with another butia or Jubaea? Seeing as JxB is considered pretty much self sterile.

 

On 7/6/2019 at 6:40 PM, buffy said:

So we bought this hybrid about 10 years ago as a JuBu. Seemed more BuJu in form, but didn't think much of it.  It's still regrowing its crown. Hasn't flowered in two years. I was looking at it today and realized a few special things:

1. It survived 8F unprotected. 

2. This palm sets viable seeds all on its own. Yep folks, self fertile viable seeds.  There's not a mature Butia for miles.

Randy,

You're right about the number 2 indicating the second generation.  Since Cameron's palm is self-fertile his seedlings would be considered JxB F2.  I think back-crosses are also considered F2, but aren't usually referred to as F2 since the back-cross notation implies the second generation.  So if his JxB is back-crossed with Butia (and all of the necessary emasculation is done to assure the back-cross) then the resulting seedlings would be noted as you indicated: (JxB)xB and the "F2" is implied.

Jon

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Fusca
40 minutes ago, RJ said:

So, it's questionable how well a F1 JXB will do in the SE, however BXJ seems to do fairly well.

This is interesting since your climate is similar to Cameron's as far as high humidity and Ben thinks Cameron's palm looks more like BxJ and it is obviously doing quite well.  If JxB is considered self-sterile this might be more evidence for it being BxJ.  I have a couple of BxJ F2 seedlings so I assume that BxJ is normally self-fertile.

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RJ
1 hour ago, Fusca said:

This is interesting since your climate is similar to Cameron's as far as high humidity and Ben thinks Cameron's palm looks more like BxJ and it is obviously doing quite well.  If JxB is considered self-sterile this might be more evidence for it being BxJ.  I have a couple of BxJ F2 seedlings so I assume that BxJ is normally self-fertile.

Dick Douglas famous F1 BXJ is self-sterile so I don't think an F1 in either case will produce viable seeds. I could certainly be wrong, or they're are probably rare exceptions. That's why I pointed out above that Cameron's could be a later generation (F2....). 

 

Dick's F1 BxJ

Dick Douglas BXJ.jpg

Dick Douglas trunk BXJ.jpg

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OC2Texaspalmlvr

Now that is a specimen palm right there :greenthumb: i always thought JxBs were better looking but this BxJ is beautiful 

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RJ
16 hours ago, OC2Texaspalmlvr said:

Now that is a specimen palm right there :greenthumb: i always thought JxBs were better looking but this BxJ is beautiful 

It certainly is. Apparently Dick had a palm society meeting where a bunch of folks from Europe showed up and they were is awe of it. (As they should be, it an awesome palm) The trunk is massive compared to a normal butia, but not quite that of a Jubaea. 

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OC2Texaspalmlvr
3 hours ago, RJ said:

It certainly is. Apparently Dick had a palm society meeting where a bunch of folks from Europe showed up and they were is awe of it. (As they should be, it an awesome palm) The trunk is massive compared to a normal butia, but not quite that of a Jubaea. 

With the Jubaea fronds and the spiral looking trunk i can see why people from all over would want to see it in person absolutely stunning. I wonder how much faster it is then a regular Jubaea 

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RJ
2 hours ago, OC2Texaspalmlvr said:

With the Jubaea fronds and the spiral looking trunk i can see why people from all over would want to see it in person absolutely stunning. I wonder how much faster it is then a regular Jubaea 

For some eye candy and info :

 

http://www.palmpedia.net/wiki/Butia_x_Jubaea

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OC2Texaspalmlvr

Thanks for the link those pics were definitely the ones i have seen that made me like the JxB's more. They definitely dont hold a candle to the Dick Douglas specimen with the spiral old leaf bases :drool: 

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RJ

I think with either palm  F1’s can really be show stoppers. Again though being F1’s they’re highly variable , much like mules are even from the same seed batch. As you get down the line they’re is more consistency in their look.

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OC2Texaspalmlvr
2 hours ago, RJ said:

I think with either palm  F1’s can really be show stoppers. Again though being F1’s they’re highly variable , much like mules are even from the same seed batch. As you get down the line they’re is more consistency in their look.

How do you pass on Dick Douglas F1s genes cause that palm needs to go into mass production haha 

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RJ

When Dick was alive Patric used it for many of his crosses. It's my understanding that he has lost access to his garden unfortunately. Look at the trunk of the butiagrus (Mule palm) in the background. When was the last time you saw one that had a trunk like an elephant leg? 

 

Dick Douglas Mule and Para.jpg

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OC2Texaspalmlvr

:drool:Those are absolute bonifide specimens just wow.  Looks like a mule and another JxB without seeing the fronds, either way prolific palms !!! Thats a bummer for Patric 

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Ben in Norcal

Patric still has access there, but more limited.  But, he's on to different things.  He hybridizes quite a lot at Dennis Turrin's (see my thread from a few weeks back on DT's place - just down the street from me.)  And, he's trying to get a smorgasbord of things to pollinate my dozen or so Coco Queens that are flowering - so we'll see if we have any success there!  I think he's here again tomorrow morning to check on status of pollinated trees, and see if anything else is flowering.  He pretty much has free access to do as he pleases - although I am stealing some seeds if we get anything to take!

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OC2Texaspalmlvr
25 minutes ago, Ben in Norcal said:

Patric still has access there, but more limited.  But, he's on to different things.  He hybridizes quite a lot at Dennis Turrin's (see my thread from a few weeks back on DT's place - just down the street from me.)  And, he's trying to get a smorgasbord of things to pollinate my dozen or so Coco Queens that are flowering - so we'll see if we have any success there!  I think he's here again tomorrow morning to check on status of pollinated trees, and see if anything else is flowering.  He pretty much has free access to do as he pleases - although I am stealing some seeds if we get anything to take!

Ben you definitely have a good thing going with Patric.B) I figured you would chime in once Patrics name got dropped =) You got any hybrid seedlings laying around for sale :drool:

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Ben in Norcal
1 minute ago, OC2Texaspalmlvr said:

Ben you definitely have a good thing going with Patric.B) I figured you would chime in once Patrics name got dropped =) You got any hybrid seedlings laying around for sale :drool:

None that I am giving up!  LOL.  I do have 3 what appear to be viable seeds that I just pulled off one of my Coco Queens - took a year for them to ripen.  Nearby Butia yatay that flowers, and a yard full of flowering Queens.  It will be interesting to see if anything comes up once I sow these!

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RJ
3 hours ago, Ben in Norcal said:

None that I am giving up!  LOL.  I do have 3 what appear to be viable seeds that I just pulled off one of my Coco Queens - took a year for them to ripen.  Nearby Butia yatay that flowers, and a yard full of flowering Queens.  It will be interesting to see if anything comes up once I sow these!

He told me what he was attempting to do with CoCoQueen pollen. That should be very interesting if it works. 

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OC2Texaspalmlvr
10 hours ago, Ben in Norcal said:

None that I am giving up!  LOL.  I do have 3 what appear to be viable seeds that I just pulled off one of my Coco Queens - took a year for them to ripen.  Nearby Butia yatay that flowers, and a yard full of flowering Queens.  It will be interesting to see if anything comes up once I sow these!

Dang it man haha Im sure your container ranch is as impressive as your garden. Is Patrics hybrids much different using yatay instead of odorata? 

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Ben in Norcal
4 minutes ago, OC2Texaspalmlvr said:

Dang it man haha Im sure your container ranch is as impressive as your garden. Is Patrics hybrids much different using yatay instead of odorata? 

This isn't a Patric hybrid...something appears to have pollinated my Coco Queen, and I am not sure what.  It will be interesting to see what pops up...if anything!

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OC2Texaspalmlvr
2 minutes ago, Ben in Norcal said:

This isn't a Patric hybrid...something appears to have pollinated my Coco Queen, and I am not sure what.  It will be interesting to see what pops up...if anything!

Ooh natural hybridization very cool . Coco queens are absolute knock out palms im still bummed i lost mine in 2018 :crying:

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Fusca
26 minutes ago, OC2Texaspalmlvr said:

Is Patrics hybrids much different using yatay instead of odorata? 

I've seen a couple of Patric's yatay mules and they do have a unique look to them compared with regular mules.  I'm not sure but I think they even have a bit more cold tolerance as well.

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