Coconut questions / identification

[clevelandtropicsmaybe]

Hello to everyone on Palm talk, I just got approved today and I am excited to be part of this community.

I have a few questions about my small coconut that I found at a local nursery. First, is it possible for anyone to id it at the size that it is? I think that it is a green dwarf variety because it was grown in a nursery in Miami, but I'm not sure. Second, how big should the pot be as it gets larger, and how often should I repot it? Lastly, are the brown tips and spots in the photos normal or is it caused by something? The reason I have so many questions is because I heard that coconuts are hard to grow indoors during the winter and I want mine to be as healthy as possible so that it has a higher chance of surviving. Any other advice will be greatly appreciated.

 

 

 

 

 

[palmsOrl]

Based on the appearance of the top portion of the nut and the petioles, I am pretty sure it is a green Malayan dwarf variety.  The pot you have it in is plenty large for it to put on a lot of growth before repotting it.  I don't know about the soil you have it in.  I go for a mix of mostly sand (like 75%) and the rest potting soil.  

I have seen brown tips like that on a lot of small Cocos.  Generally, I would assume some cold damage, nutrient deficiency or some kind of burn.  I am not real sure on that, but I wouldn't worry, the palm looks healthy.

Overall, I would get the palm repotted in sandy soil, while there is still plenty of summer left, and be ready to bring it indoors when nights start getting into the 40s (or an extended stretch of 50s and 60s).  Then give it as much light and warmth as you can while it is inside until next Spring.

Edited June 25, 2019 by palmsOrl

[clevelandtropicsmaybe]

Thanks for the reply. It was just put in that pot about 1 month ago and I used palm and cactus mix for the soil. There are a few leaves that fell in the pot. I might make custom soil when the time comes to repot it.

I've kept it outside unless the temperature was forecasted to go below 50 degrees, but it was unusually cold until recently with highs in the 60s and low 70s and 50s at night. I have the coconut in full sun, so maybe its a little sunburn? It has started to grow a lot since I first got it in May, so I think its healthy.

Edited June 25, 2019 by clevelandtropicsmaybe

[GottmitAlex]

Make sure it is well watered. Usually, cactus/palm/citrus mixes drain very well and their water evaporates quickly when in pots outdoors at full sun.  Welcome to the forum!

 

[Rickybobby]

Looks pretty good. Welcome to the talk

myself am experimenting with pool filter sand for coconuts. It’s very course so the water just runs straight out but seems to stay moist enough on the bottom. The only coconut I killer indoors was because I used too soggy of a soil and it got root rot 

[PalmatierMeg]

Coconuts need sun, high heat, humidity and warm rain to be truly happy. Yours will love your sweltering summer so keep it outdoors while the good times last. Your task is to replicate those conditions during your brutal winter. Some things you need to be aware of:

1. Coconuts are extremely cold sensitive - I hope everyone knows that. They suffer damage: spotting, yellowing, tip burn at temps in the 40s. They receive significant damage from the mid- to high 30s, esp during frosts. At the low 30s they may die.

2. They are also "cool sensitive", which many people don't or won't understand. Extended periods of temps in the 40-60 range can kill them. They need daytime highs >80F, preferably >90F, followed by warm nights. 

3. Coconuts will not photosynthesize if temps fall below 50F and I strongly suspect even below 60F. If they can't photosynthesize, they starve.

4. Cold rain can be lethal to them. Never leave one outdoors if a wet cold front is expected. Never water one with cold tap water during winter.

5. In winter, your house will be too cold, too dark and too dry to keep a tropical palm happy. You will need to provide supplemental heat, light and humidity to it. @Rickybobby in Canada has made great progress keeping his palms well through a Canadian winter. @GottmitAlex is also very knowledgable.

Welcome to PalmTalk and keep us updated.

[clevelandtropicsmaybe]

Thanks for the advice. Ill have to watch the moisture levels until I can get it into better soil.

I think I have a good spot for it during the winter. I'm gonna try and put it in front of a south facing window that gets pretty good sun and is also next to a radiator, which makes that part of the room much warmer. If that spot doesn't work than ill follow your advice and create an environment with the ideal conditions for it. My biggest worry is the low humidity, which my house can get very dry.

I will keep you all updated.

Edited June 25, 2019 by clevelandtropicsmaybe

[PalmatierMeg]

Low humidity, esp. near a hot radiator, can cause problems. Consider setting the pot on large tray of rocks & water to raise humidity although I can't guarantee that will help. Low humidity encourages infestations of spider mites so examine the leaves closely and often.

[GottmitAlex]

If I'm reading this correctly, dump the coco and get a Trachy.

That's not my advice. Folks in the UK have nurtured cocos in their "flats". However the cocos they have been able to procure are talls and they hit the ceiling in 2 years time.   I suggest, if you want a coco to last a while indoors, look for a true dwarf coco. Such as a fiji dwarf.

Just my opinion.

 

[clevelandtropicsmaybe]

I'm just trying the coco for fun more than anything. It was only like $15.  I got it knowing that it is very difficult to grow and probably won't survive for many years but I'm up for a challenge. I found a 2 ft trachy at a nursery near me but it cost $160!! I'd rather get a smaller seedling for much cheaper.

Also would spraying the leaves with water or putting in a humidifier help with the humidity problems?

[GottmitAlex]

2 minutes ago, clevelandtropicsmaybe said:

I'm just trying the coco for fun more than anything. It was only like $15.  I got it knowing that it is very difficult to grow and probably won't survive for many years but I'm up for a challenge. I found a 2 ft trachy at a nursery near me but it cost $160!! I'd rather get a smaller seedling for much cheaper.

Also would spraying the leaves with water or putting in a humidifier help with the humidity problems?

Honestly it's not about the humidity. It helps, however it is tertiary. Constant heat is key for cocos to survive.  Here in SoCal, humidity is low or null during the day but inland , we have enough heat. Forget about humidity. I too thought almost 3 years ago in acquiring a misting device. It's futile. Cocos want heat. 

[palmsOrl]

That is a great idea about looking for a true dwarf.  They turn up on eBay all the time.  Your green Malayan “dwarf” will give you more time before it outgrows the house than a tall, but you might have a lifetime of enjoyment with a Fiji dwarf if you provide it with favorable conditions and apply some techniques to keep it almost “bonsai’d”.  

I agree with Alex about the humidity.  These can grow great in a hot, frostless desert as long as they have a constant source of water.

[Silas_Sancona]

5 minutes ago, palmsOrl said:

These can grow great in a hot, frostless desert as long as they have a constant source of water.

Interesting,  Hot and essentially frostless here.. No Coconuts though, even at the Zoo and Papago Park around their ponds. As horrible as 99.8% of Queens look here, i'd hate to see how a bunch of Cocos would do after a few summers left mostly on their own.. That said,  Once you get further south, say down by Guaymas / Cabo San Lucas, higher overall humidity levels there make growing them into something attractive and worth while possible, and that might be stretching the definition of attractive a bit in some cases. Mazatlan?.. That is where you'll find some real beauties however.. Very humid there.

[Rickybobby]

2 hours ago, clevelandtropicsmaybe said:

I'm just trying the coco for fun more than anything. It was only like $15.  I got it knowing that it is very difficult to grow and probably won't survive for many years but I'm up for a challenge. I found a 2 ft trachy at a nursery near me but it cost $160!! I'd rather get a smaller seedling for much cheaper.

Also would spraying the leaves with water or putting in a humidifier help with the humidity problems?

If you get really ambitious and start germinating and collecting. I recommend and indoor palm room or greenhouse type environment. I built one a year ago   Room fully insulated top to bottom. Doors sealed so that the cool basement air doesn’t make its way in. Than a heater on a thermostat and if need be a humidifier. But if I may say if you put many large palms. (For us) in a room say 12x14 they will actually humidify the room naturally. Last year my larger palms would make the room 55 percent humidity with no added moisture and a very dry radiant heater running. Than just buy a bunch of led lights and make some mounts and your golden 

[palmsOrl]

1 hour ago, Silas_Sancona said:

Interesting,  Hot and essentially frostless here.. No Coconuts though, even at the Zoo and Papago Park around their ponds. As horrible as 99.8% of Queens look here, i'd hate to see how a bunch of Cocos would do after a few summers left mostly on their own.. That said,  Once you get further south, say down by Guaymas / Cabo San Lucas, higher overall humidity levels there make growing them into something attractive and worth while possible, and that might be stretching the definition of attractive a bit in some cases. Mazatlan?.. That is where you'll find some real beauties however.. Very humid there.

I just know I have seen photos of mature coconut palms in places like Dubai and Jeddah, which are tropical deserts, but they are obviously well irrigated.  I cannot imagine the amount of irrigation required to keep a mature Cocos healthy in such locations.

[greysrigging]

3 hours ago, Silas_Sancona said:

Interesting,  Hot and essentially frostless here.. No Coconuts though, even at the Zoo and Papago Park around their ponds. As horrible as 99.8% of Queens look here, i'd hate to see how a bunch of Cocos would do after a few summers left mostly on their own.. That said,  Once you get further south, say down by Guaymas / Cabo San Lucas, higher overall humidity levels there make growing them into something attractive and worth while possible, and that might be stretching the definition of attractive a bit in some cases. Mazatlan?.. That is where you'll find some real beauties however.. Very humid there.

Many many years ago I brought some sprouted coconut seeds down from Darwin to a remote lead, silver,zinc mine called Cadjebut.....located about 50 miles from the evil remorselessly hot Western Australian town of Fitzroy Crossing. The sorta place that averages over 100f for 8 months of the year. I also planted a couple of Carpentaria Palms.
We planted the palms out in the beer garden of the Wet Mess which had a natural spring that became a swimming pool. Both species grew ok without shade, although they looked very ratty and tatty during the hottest months ( Oct - Dec ) and suffered sunburn of course. They always came good with the arrival of monsoonal rains.
So they withstood the heat, but the thing that really helped them thrive was the wet feet from the natural spring ( topped up from de watering the underground workings ) Heat and ample watering is the key.... dry and low humidity is as much an enemy of the coconut as is cold wet feet in the Mediterranean climes so beloved of coconut growers away from the tropics.
Fitzroy Crossing, Western Australia
https://www.weatherzone.com.au/climate/station.jsp?lt=site&lc=3093

 

[Silas_Sancona]

6 minutes ago, greysrigging said:

Heat and ample watering is the key.... dry and low humidity is as much an enemy of the coconut as is cold wet feet in the Mediterranean climes so beloved of coconut growers away from the tropics.

A natural spring would Help them deal with the heat for sure.  Phoenix' yearly rainfall average is approx. 8" / 203mm/ yr. maybe 1-2" more here in Chandler, S.E. of Downtown Phoenix.  Were lucky if we get 2.50"-3.00" / 63.5-76.2mm of rain during our Summer Monsoon season. Usually get a bit less. 

Head south, get more rain. Tucson averages approx. 15" or 381mm of rain / yr. Problem is their winter lows which can dip below 0c more often than here. Once you get south of the U.S. / Mexico border, esp. closer to the coast of the Gulf of CA. ( San Carlos / Guaymas ) rain ( 222mm/ yr in Guaymas ), especially in the summer, starts to increase and lows below 1 or 2c are rare, or, much less of a possibility than here. Humidity and dew points are much more favorable there most of the year also. Takes some interesting weather dynamics to pull moisture from the Gulf up this way, and usually occurs only a few times during the summer normally. Outside a Palm collector's care, our section of the Sonoran Desert is a pretty hostile place for Cocos. That might change in the future however..

[PalmatierMeg]

Fiji dwarf coconuts are difficult to find and likely expensive - I haven't had any luck locating one from a reliable source. Be aware there are 100s of coconut sellers out there but are they selling what they say? If they are in FL they are likely peddling whatever they can scrounge from their back yard or local park. There is an eBay seller in HI that offers Red Tahiti Rangirora dwarf coconut seeds (I bought one from him). Depending on whether you bought ungerminated, germinated seed or 2-leaf seedling, you pay $40 and up + shipping. If you want a "true" dwarf coconut you will have to search.

Finally, do not buy a coconut from Asia (Sri Lanka, Indonesia etc) - apparently US agricultural authorities highly disapprove of importing those. They will seize them if they catch them. If one gets through officials may eventually track you down and come knocking on your door to seize it. According to one of my sources in Thailand, US Customs regularly scans incoming packages for a Phytosanitary Certificate without opening the box. No Certificate and they seize plant material then send on the empty box and a nasty form letter. I now buy only from vendors that offer Certificates.

None of the above applies if you are growing one for fun. Enjoy it until it outgrows the great indoors, kiss it goodbye and start over.

 

[clevelandtropicsmaybe]

Thanks for all of the responses! I am really just growing the coco for fun and although I am trying to germinate some seeds, I don't plan on building a container/room for the palms, ill just try to give them the right conditions. I'll put it with my majesty which already survived a winter inside. I might eventually run out of spots for pots in my house though. Also if I fail and ever find another coconut, I might try to bonsai it.

 

A phoenix dactylifera seedling that I'm germinating might join them, along with cat palm seeds that I collected from a palm at a local nursery, but that's a topic for palms in pots.

 

 

[pj_orlando_z9b]

My experience in 5 years is that coconuts need heat and sun first and foremost. To thrive, they need humidity, fertilizer, and a lot of space to grow. One misconception in my opinion is the excessive water. Coconuts are actually very drought tolerant. Go to places like Aruba and Bonaire that get less than 10" of annual rain. These places are also very humid. I bought 2 coconuts a few years ago.  One was larger and potted. The second was small and planted in ground. The potted coconut did not survive but the in-ground one is now fruiting. 

They are very cold sensitive but several nights in the 30s do minimal damage to mine. The key is super hot and humid yearly weather allow it to store lots of energy. Soil temp is also critical. The magic number is low 60s. Anything colder and the palm will shut down.

Not scientific but this is what I have experienced in Central Florida.  Good luck!

Edited June 26, 2019 by pj_orlando_z9b

[palmsOrl]

Drought tolerant is relative.  Established Cocos are certainly very drought tolerant in Florida, but I have read that in areas with less than around 30” of rain per year, they need supplemental irrigation (or ground water, etc.) to survive.

Coconut palms can look decent in desert areas with ample irrigation, but to look their very best, a humid tropical climate is required.

[PalmatierMeg]

I've learned the saying, "Head in hell, feet in heaven" very much applies to coconuts and many other palms that grow in hot, esp. dry climates. If their roots can access a source of underground moisture, they can survive the dryness. Otherwise, the insanely low humidity just draws the moisture out of them. If you think of an oasis in the desert, palms and other vegetation cluster around a source of water rising from an underground aquifer surrounded by otherwise barren terrain. A coconut stuck in the sand in the middle of the Sahara is doomed, and quickly. Those large drooping leaves conduct moisture skyward. An underground water source (or generous irrigation) provide a means to survive if not thrive. That's why I stress humidity/rain/watering along with heat and sun.

The last few weeks I've been dealing with sun, high heat, humidity but a total lack of rainfall - way less than 50% of June average. By now we should have transitioned into full rainy season. Instead, we have cloudless skies, relentless sun and not a drop of rain. Even though humidity is 90-100% in the morning, by midday it plunges to 50% or lower, critically low by FL standards. Temps are in the mid- to upper 90s every day. Without irrigation and hand watering, my whole lot would be shriveling up. My adult coconuts can handle the conditions although they look better and grow faster when planted near irrigation. But I have to hand water my seedling coconuts on the unirrigated garden lot.