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Needle Palms in Coastal Rhode Island 7A


agt

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Hello Everyone,

I just bought two needle palms from hawkpalms on ebay in an attempt to fill up some extra space on the base my dune. This is incredibly close to the ocean and the temperature is rarely warmer than 80 all summer because of the cold water. In the winter I'd say it rarely gets below 15. The last few weeks have been pretty wet and cold and now its starting to get nicer.  I was wondering if anyone had an idea if this is worth a try having minimal protection or if the winter will be too harsh. The dune also acts as a shield from the wind coming from the ocean which I think could be helpful.

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Edited by agt
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Welcome to the forum!  That far north, it is often a good idea to put them near the south side of your house.  Either way, they will benefit greatly from having some protection for the first 2-3 years until they get established.  The hardiness numbers you hear about all over the internet only seem to be accurate for this palm when it is well established.

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Lakeland, FL

USDA Zone 1990: 9a  2012: 9b  2023: 10a | Sunset Zone: 26 | Record Low: 20F/-6.67C (Jan. 1985, Dec.1962) | Record Low USDA Zone: 9a

30-Year Avg. Low: 30F | 30-year Min: 24F

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Certainly worth a try. Needle palms come from inland area of the SE US. I'm not aware of any that grow in sandy beach environments, which may be a clue. Over time I've tried needles 3 times here on my alkaline sandy soil in SWFL. All declined and eventually perished over time so I won't try again. I'm not sure whether it was the soil or possible nematode activity that soil is prone to. One thing to remember about many extremely cold hardy US palms (needles, Sabals) is that they need long, hot humid summers to balance cold winters. Is a maximum summer high of 80F at a RI beach enough to carry your needle through a New England winter? I guess you are going to find out for us. So, please stick around and add to our collective knowledge.

Welcome to PalmTalk.

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Meg

Palms of Victory I shall wear

Cape Coral (It's Just Paradise)
Florida
Zone 10A on the Isabelle Canal
Elevation: 15 feet

I'd like to be under the sea in an octopus' garden in the shade.

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Needles,while the most cold hardy palm, really require a lot of heat to recover especially from a harsh winter. Mine don't start taking off (in needle palm terms) until mid April or so. They do seem to eek out growth here and there throughout the year, but really are slow as molasses in winter time even in the dead of summer. Now I cannot speak on which soil they prefer in an expert manner, but I can say they love moist or damn near soggy soil and sand is not something that will stay soggy as it drains and dries far to easily and fast. 

 

As for your area, I'm sure with protecting it the first few years your climate might have a chance most years, but y'all get bitter cold for a decent period and summer is cool enough that a lot of folks don't even have air conditioning...something that is quite literally deadly here from possibly April through October. Even in my milder winter climate I saw minor damage on some strap leaf specimens so be aware yours will need quite a few winters of protection to allow it to mature enough to be hardy with some coverage on bad years after that.

Edited by mdsonofthesouth
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LOWS 16/17 12F, 17/18 3F, 18/19 7F, 19/20 20F

Palms growing in my garden: Trachycarpus Fortunei, Chamaerops Humilis, Chamaerops Humilis var. Cerifera, Rhapidophyllum Hystrix, Sabal Palmetto 

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Put some black mulch around it to retain some heat. Next spring I would recommend putting some sort of plastic over it to heady start growth as  the cool New England water takes a while to warm up. Good luck and keep us updated!

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In 2016 I planted five needle palms from hawkpalms about the same size of yours. Four of them croaked the first winter but the one that survived is still kicking to this day (albeit it looks quite beat up). I protected it only in its first winter but not the following two.

I think it is unlikely, but not impossible, that your palm can survive long term. Especially considering your climate which lacks the summer heat needle palms require to grow optimally to recover from winter damage.

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Your summer temperatures may not be the most ideal, but beach sand gets HOT, so that should help, just keep it well watered in the summer, a little mulch might help it from quickly drying out. I’d keep it as dry as possible in the winter, rain/snow in the crown = no bueno.

Being that close to the ocean might actually be a godsend come winter time, Long Island’s barrier islands can be as much as 15 degrees warmer on cold winter nights.

I’d also try Sabal minor, they may perform better in sand than Needle palms.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Mulched up. The one got nibbled on by rabbits. Just got some liquid fence repellent. So far so good.

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I’d say they might actually have a chance, as long as they get enough heat in the summer.  Nicely done.  

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We’ve gotten a lot of rain since I planted them there. So right now they look great. I’m hoping they get enough heat. They definitely get a lot of sun so that should help.

Edited by agt
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  • 3 months later...

Excited to see the progress on this! Good luck with the impending colder and wetter than average winter most of the East Coast is supposed to have....starting to think this is the new normal sadly...

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LOWS 16/17 12F, 17/18 3F, 18/19 7F, 19/20 20F

Palms growing in my garden: Trachycarpus Fortunei, Chamaerops Humilis, Chamaerops Humilis var. Cerifera, Rhapidophyllum Hystrix, Sabal Palmetto 

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AGT - I'm about 2 hours north of you or less - in Newburyport (MA) and would love to hear how these do through the winter. 

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  • 4 weeks later...

Going into November I think they look better than they did during the summer. Surprising considering theres been a coastal storm practically every week in October. Looks like the first freeze of the season is going to be on Friday in the 20s but the ocean is still in the 60s. The next few weeks are going to be in the 30s-40s and staying relatively mild. Not too concerned yet. Hoping for a mild January and February. 

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Edited by agt
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  • 2 weeks later...
3 hours ago, agt said:

It was about 15 this morning and decided to cover them up a bit. Highly doubt it helped but figured it was worth a try.

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Whoah! 15F. Is this regular for this time in November? 

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5 year high 42.2C/108F (07/06/2018)--5 year low 4.6C/40.3F (1/19/2023)--Lowest recent/current winter: 4.6C/40.3F (1/19/2023)

 

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NO! It's just a crazy cold snap today. low to mid 20's today in Northeastern coastal Mass. Back to the 40's and 50's starting tomorrow. Whew.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I would try and add some organic matter as a top dressing next year.  They love moist, organic soil.  Any kind of windbreak from those north winds will be helpful too.  Good luck!

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  • 3 weeks later...

Checked on them the other day. Wanted to clear out the snow a bit from the crown but I opted not too. It’s currently just under 60 degrees there and just got 4in of rain so I assume the snow is gone. Going to check on them next week.

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  • 2 weeks later...
  • 4 weeks later...
  • 4 months later...

Been 6 months since I’ve seen these needle palms. One looks much better than the other. Any recommendations on getting the one palm in better shape.

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My only real concern is how much nutrition can they get from the sand?  These are more adapted to woodland situation.  Maybe top dress with some good compost and make sure they get regular water throughout the summer.

I'd say overall they still look pretty good.:greenthumb:

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I'd say fertilizer but I doubt the plant would get any with it running right through the sand. Honestly they really are slow growers even in humid subtropic climate.

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LOWS 16/17 12F, 17/18 3F, 18/19 7F, 19/20 20F

Palms growing in my garden: Trachycarpus Fortunei, Chamaerops Humilis, Chamaerops Humilis var. Cerifera, Rhapidophyllum Hystrix, Sabal Palmetto 

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They need time.  Let's see what they look like at the end of the year. 

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On 6/10/2020 at 2:51 PM, Manalto said:

Keep up the good work!

I wonder how Sabal palmetto would do in your spot?

I have questioned that myself and will consider trying it one day. Something holding me back is the fact that I have seen  mature sabal palmettos struggle in va beach and rarely see them in ocean city md and Rehoboth beach de. It is warmer in those locations any given day of the year here. Do you think it’s realistic to try?

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On 6/9/2020 at 2:33 PM, Chester B said:

My only real concern is how much nutrition can they get from the sand?  These are more adapted to woodland situation.  Maybe top dress with some good compost and make sure they get regular water throughout the summer.

I'd say overall they still look pretty good.:greenthumb:

It’s more dirt like under the surface. It’s not completely sandy like the beach. I have them planted on the north side base of the dune which is shielded from ocean winds. It’s significantly warmer there than the other side of the dune toward the beach.

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  • 4 weeks later...

July - The palms have definitely bettered in condition. As one is showing almost no damage and has gotten a lot bigger. The other one is much smaller than the other. Do you think that ones alright? I recently cleared a bit around it so that it gets more sunlight. The one performing better definitely get more sun than the other.

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My needles are just starting to grow good in our 90F+ days.  Mine get afternoon hot sun and plenty water in clay.  They like HOT!

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YouTube https://www.youtube.com/@tntropics - 60+ In-ground 7A palms - (Sabal) minor(7 large + 27 seedling size, 3 dwarf),  brazoria(1) , birmingham(4), etonia (1) louisiana(5), palmetto (1), riverside (1),  (Trachycarpus) fortunei(7), wagnerianus(1),  Rhapidophyllum hystrix(7),  15' Mule-Butia x Syagrus(1),  Blue Butia capitata(1) +Tons of tropical plants.  Recent Yearly Lows -1F, 12F, 11F, 18F, 16F, 3F, 3F, 6F, 3F, 1F, 16F, 17F, 6F, 8F

 

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19 minutes ago, agt said:

July - The palms have definitely bettered in condition. As one is showing almost no damage and has gotten a lot bigger. The other one is much smaller than the other. Do you think that ones alright? I recently cleared a bit around it so that it gets more sunlight. The one performing better definitely get more sun than the other.

@Allen gives good advice on these.  They like it hot and sunny at your latitude.  Here, they prefer dappled light.  I enjoy reading your updates.  Keep up the good work!

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Lakeland, FL

USDA Zone 1990: 9a  2012: 9b  2023: 10a | Sunset Zone: 26 | Record Low: 20F/-6.67C (Jan. 1985, Dec.1962) | Record Low USDA Zone: 9a

30-Year Avg. Low: 30F | 30-year Min: 24F

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My needle seems to love its situation, full sun in the winter and part shade in the summer due to the Musa Basjoos around it. The summer shade prevents it from becoming super compact. 

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PalmTreeDude

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1 hour ago, PalmTreeDude said:

My needle seems to love its situation, full sun in the winter and part shade in the summer due to the Musa Basjoos around it. The summer shade prevents it from becoming super compact. 

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Your needle looks great!

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I figured I would give more information as to why I picked this location although it faces north. The needles are placed along the bottom on the street side of the beach dune. The beach faces south in RI. I thought this would be a good spot because there is much less wind but I contemplate moving them to a sunnier location across the street.

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52 minutes ago, agt said:

Your needle looks great!

Thanks! 

 

30 minutes ago, agt said:

I figured I would give more information as to why I picked this location although it faces north. The needles are placed along the bottom on the street side of the beach dune. The beach faces south in RI. I thought this would be a good spot because there is much less wind but I contemplate moving them to a sunnier location across the street.

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I would recommend keeping it out of the wind as much as possible, wind in the mid-Atlantic and Northeast beaches can destroy palms. That’s what happens to Sabal palmettos directly along the beach at Virginia Beach, the cold winter wind off of the ocean ends up making them look horrible, while the ones in sheltered locations or inland tend to look fine. 

Edited by PalmTreeDude
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PalmTreeDude

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17 minutes ago, PalmTreeDude said:

Thanks! 

 

I would recommend keeping it out of the wind as much as possible, wind in the mid-Atlantic and Northeast beaches can destroy palms. That’s what happens to Sabal palmettos directly along the beach at Virginia Beach, the cold winter wind off of the ocean ends up making them look horrible, while the ones in sheltered locations or inland tend to look fine. 

Okay great thanks. I actually went to VB oceanfront in the spring about a year ago and recall seeing them in poor condition.

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1 hour ago, agt said:

Okay great thanks. I actually went to VB oceanfront in the spring about a year ago and recall seeing them in poor condition.

Yeah, cold wind is really bad for them. Here is some in Virginia Beach inland away from that. I wonder if this guy is a PalmTalk member himself? 

 

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PalmTreeDude

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  • 4 weeks later...

August 2020. The needle palm that gets full sun is much larger and shows no damage. The needle palm that has been in more shade hasn’t grown as much and still shows damage. Decided to trim up the beach roses and other plants that were in the way blocking the sun. Both are in very similar conditions now. Hope to see improvement in the next month or so before it gets cold.

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