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Female Phoenix Canariensis and male Medjool pollen


Savant

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Phoenix Canariensis is cold tolerant however it’s fruit is too astringent and not edible.
 
Is it possible to use pollen from male medjool tree to pollinate female phoenix canariensis?
 
1- Will it result in making a hybrid date fruit which is edible, with more flesh and sweet in taste?
 
2- Has anyone seen any such example? anything in the literature, 
has it been tried in date orchards or in the wild?
 
3- Are there any pictures of such a hybrid fruit, details about the quality of such a fruit, taste, size, etc?
 
Please share your experience.
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Is it possible, yes.  The phoenix genus hybridizes very freely when multiple species are in close enough proximity to each other and their flowering cycle overlaps.  I have no experience hybridizing these two and no knowledge of what the fruit might be like at this point.  My canariensis is still a juvenile.

Welcome to the forums!

Lakeland, FL

USDA Zone 1990: 9a  2012: 9b  2023: 10a | Sunset Zone: 26 | Record Low: 20F/-6.67C (Jan. 1985, Dec.1962) | Record Low USDA Zone: 9a

30-Year Avg. Low: 30F | 30-year Min: 24F

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It is possible to pollinate the canariensis with dactylifera pollen, but it won't have an effect on the fruit. The resulting fruit and seed will be identical to regular canariensis fruit and seeds. If you would grow the hybrid offspring at least some could produce edible fruits.

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Attempts to produce quality fruit from date palms or hybrids in humid, rainy climates - hot or cool - almost invariably result in failure. Dates are produced in hot, dry climates such as the Middle East and So. Calif.

Meg

Palms of Victory I shall wear

Cape Coral (It's Just Paradise)
Florida
Zone 10A on the Isabelle Canal
Elevation: 15 feet

I'd like to be under the sea in an octopus' garden in the shade.

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If I'm not mistaken, the Phoenix Canariensis var. Porphyrocarpa (red fruits), is a version of CIDP that contains Dacty blood. It comes from a female CIDP being pollenated by Medjool pollen. These specimens are common around the Mediterranean, especially France. People now swear by them as a superior alternative to CIDP since they have survived the worst winters, when CIDP's and Dacty's have been killed off. 

The resulting specimens of this CIDP x Dacty hybridisation bare red fruit (instead of yellow/orange) and have long slender trunks similar to Dacty's, but a full crown of fronds similar to CIDP. The fruit produced are also more edible than traditional CIDP, although not on par with genuine date fruit. I believe these red fruits will still ripen in cooler climates as well, such as the UK and PNW, due to the CIDP genetics. It is also hardier than traditional CIDP thanks to the Dacty blood, taking lows down to 15F, while also retaining the wet-cold resistance of the CIDP.

Dry-summer Oceanic climate (9a)

Average annual precipitation - 18.7 inches : Average annual sunshine hours - 1725

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We have many Porphyrocarpa in are and beside fruit colors I don't see much difference between regular CIDP. I personally don't think it has many (any) connection with Dactylifera.

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5 hours ago, UK_Palms said:

If I'm not mistaken, the Phoenix Canariensis var. Porphyrocarpa (red fruits), is a version of CIDP that contains Dacty blood. It comes from a female CIDP being pollenated by Medjool pollen. These specimens are common around the Mediterranean, especially France. People now swear by them as a superior alternative to CIDP since they have survived the worst winters, when CIDP's and Dacty's have been killed off. 

The resulting specimens of this CIDP x Dacty hybridisation bare red fruit (instead of yellow/orange) and have long slender trunks similar to Dacty's, but a full crown of fronds similar to CIDP. The fruit produced are also more edible than traditional CIDP, although not on par with genuine date fruit. I believe these red fruits will still ripen in cooler climates as well, such as the UK and PNW, due to the CIDP genetics. It is also hardier than traditional CIDP thanks to the Dacty blood, taking lows down to 15F, while also retaining the wet-cold resistance of the CIDP.

Interesting.... I hadn't read this. Are these Phoenix Canariensis var. Porphyrocarpa hard to obtain? I'd like to give a few a whirl . 

 

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6 hours ago, UK_Palms said:

If I'm not mistaken, the Phoenix Canariensis var. Porphyrocarpa (red fruits), is a version of CIDP that contains Dacty blood. It comes from a female CIDP being pollenated by Medjool pollen. These specimens are common around the Mediterranean, especially France. People now swear by them as a superior alternative to CIDP since they have survived the worst winters, when CIDP's and Dacty's have been killed off. 

The resulting specimens of this CIDP x Dacty hybridisation bare red fruit (instead of yellow/orange) and have long slender trunks similar to Dacty's, but a full crown of fronds similar to CIDP. The fruit produced are also more edible than traditional CIDP, although not on par with genuine date fruit. I believe these red fruits will still ripen in cooler climates as well, such as the UK and PNW, due to the CIDP genetics. It is also hardier than traditional CIDP thanks to the Dacty blood, taking lows down to 15F, while also retaining the wet-cold resistance of the CIDP.

I Disagree. Porphyrocarpa looks like regular CIDP, just with red fruits. Hybrids have traits of both species. We have hybrids too, and they look different from Porphyrocarpa. 

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1 hour ago, Cikas said:

I Disagree. Porphyrocarpa looks like regular CIDP, just with red fruits. Hybrids have traits of both species. We have hybrids too, and they look different from Porphyrocarpa. 

I have to disagree with your statement. Younger Porphyrocarpa palms look almost identical to CIDP (as do most Phoenix's), but once they are mature and start putting on a lot of trunk, it becomes quite slender like a Dacty and the foliage also seems more grey/blue. It definitely does not have the usual deep green colour to the fronds that the CIDP has. As I said, this is more notable the older the palm gets. There is definitely some kind of hybridisation going on with Dacty or Sylvestris even. Perhaps some appear more CIDP dominant than others though, while some show more dominant Dacty/Sylvestris traits. The differences between regular CIDP and the Porphyrocarpa are definitely apparent though...

- red fruits

- more slender trunk

- more grey/blue frond colour

Dry-summer Oceanic climate (9a)

Average annual precipitation - 18.7 inches : Average annual sunshine hours - 1725

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4 hours ago, UK_Palms said:

I have to disagree with your statement. Younger Porphyrocarpa palms look almost identical to CIDP (as do most Phoenix's), but once they are mature and start putting on a lot of trunk, it becomes quite slender like a Dacty and the foliage also seems more grey/blue. It definitely does not have the usual deep green colour to the fronds that the CIDP has. As I said, this is more notable the older the palm gets. There is definitely some kind of hybridisation going on with Dacty or Sylvestris even. Perhaps some appear more CIDP dominant than others though, while some show more dominant Dacty/Sylvestris traits. The differences between regular CIDP and the Porphyrocarpa are definitely apparent though...

- red fruits

- more slender trunk

- more grey/blue frond colourn

Genetic evidence revealed that Porphyrocarpa is not a hybrid but rather a variety of Phoenix canariensis that originated from the Canary Islands:

https://www.academia.edu/14355529/The_date_palm_with_blue_dates_Phoenix_senegalensis_André_Arecaceae_A_horticultural_enigma_is_solved

Also I am scaptical about the differences in cold tolerance, is there any hard evidence to these statements?

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8 hours ago, UK_Palms said:

I have to disagree with your statement. Younger Porphyrocarpa palms look almost identical to CIDP (as do most Phoenix's), but once they are mature and start putting on a lot of trunk, it becomes quite slender like a Dacty and the foliage also seems more grey/blue. It definitely does not have the usual deep green colour to the fronds that the CIDP has. As I said, this is more notable the older the palm gets. There is definitely some kind of hybridisation going on with Dacty or Sylvestris even. Perhaps some appear more CIDP dominant than others though, while some show more dominant Dacty/Sylvestris traits. The differences between regular CIDP and the Porphyrocarpa are definitely apparent though...

- red fruits

- more slender trunk

- more grey/blue frond colour

That simply not true. They look the same as regular CIDP. Difference is only in fruits color. We have them here too. Both regular and with red fruits. We also have real hybrids of Datchy and CIDP. And they are more silver and have multiple trunks. CIDP is the most common palm here (or it was before Red palm weevils). And we have (had) a lot of very old specimens (even 200 + years old). Soo I know very well how old CIDP look (both with yellow/orange or red fruits). 

Edited by Cikas
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Thank you all for responding to my original post, very much appreciated.

This is a subject of curiosity for me. In the literature I have come across hybridization between female Phoenix dactylifera and male Phoenix canariensis resulting in different phenotypes. For example:

Metaxenic effects as related to male palm (Phoenix dactylifera and Phoenix canariensis), yield and quality of Khalas fruit. Journal of Food, Agriculture & Environment Vol.12 (2):523-525. 2014

However I am interested in hand pollinating female Phoenix canariensis with different male pollens of various high quality dactylifera varieties eg. Medjool, Safawi, Khalas, Sukkari, Ajwa. etc.

The pollen appears to have an influence on the characteristics of fruit and seed.

In London, I have seen many male Phoenix canariensis  but yet to find any female Phoenix canariensis.

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  • 3 years later...
On 6/16/2019 at 4:21 AM, UK_Palms said:

I have to disagree with your statement. Younger Porphyrocarpa palms look almost identical to CIDP (as do most Phoenix's), but once they are mature and start putting on a lot of trunk, it becomes quite slender like a Dacty and the foliage also seems more grey/blue. It definitely does not have the usual deep green colour to the fronds that the CIDP has. As I said, this is more notable the older the palm gets. There is definitely some kind of hybridisation going on with Dacty or Sylvestris even. Perhaps some appear more CIDP dominant than others though, while some show more dominant Dacty/Sylvestris traits. The differences between regular CIDP and the Porphyrocarpa are definitely apparent though...

- red fruits

- more slender trunk

- more grey/blue frond colour

Where do you get this information from? I'm pretty interested in this palm because I actually have a small specimen. What I can tell already is that its leaves are much stiffer than CIDP and it looks and feels a bit like a dactylifera of that size.

Yes it's me Hortulanus 😂

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1 hour ago, Hortulanus said:

Where do you get this information from? I'm pretty interested in this palm because I actually have a small specimen. What I can tell already is that its leaves are much stiffer than CIDP and it looks and feels a bit like a dactylifera of that size.

I would disregard that information that I posted before. I wrote that over 3 years ago now and my views on the subject have changed somewhat. Porphyrocarpa is more than likely just a variant of regular CIDP that has naturally developed red fruits within a population, perhaps from environmental factors, or it could be a result of selective breeding/propagation.

The red fruit variation more than likely appeared naturally in the native range through genetic mutation. I don't think it is a separate genus or a hybrid of any kind, with say Dactylifera for instance. I think genetic testing has confirmed that it is not hybridised. I have two smallish specimens growing here and they both look like regular CIDP to me.

I do notice a bit more stiffness in the fronds, but not enough to suggest it is a Dacty hybrid or something. It's likely just a bit of natural variation amongst this particular cultivar. At least a small minority of Porphyrocarpa's would exhibit some degree of clumping/suckering if it was in fact a Dacty or Sylvestris hybrid. They seem to be 100% solitary however.

Regards, Ben

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Dry-summer Oceanic climate (9a)

Average annual precipitation - 18.7 inches : Average annual sunshine hours - 1725

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7 hours ago, UK_Palms said:

I would disregard that information that I posted before. I wrote that over 3 years ago now and my views on the subject have changed somewhat. Porphyrocarpa is more than likely just a variant of regular CIDP that has naturally developed red fruits within a population, perhaps from environmental factors, or it could be a result of selective breeding/propagation.

The red fruit variation more than likely appeared naturally in the native range through genetic mutation. I don't think it is a separate genus or a hybrid of any kind, with say Dactylifera for instance. I think genetic testing has confirmed that it is not hybridised. I have two smallish specimens growing here and they both look like regular CIDP to me.

I do notice a bit more stiffness in the fronds, but not enough to suggest it is a Dacty hybrid or something. It's likely just a bit of natural variation amongst this particular cultivar. At least a small minority of Porphyrocarpa's would exhibit some degree of clumping/suckering if it was in fact a Dacty or Sylvestris hybrid. They seem to be 100% solitary however.

Regards, Ben

Lol may I chime in?

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3 hours ago, Phoenikakias said:

Lol may I chime in?

Please do, Konstantinos. You are the expert in cross breeding with decades of experience in the palm growing field. I am interested in hearing your take on this Porphyrocarpa var, as it seems a lot of us are unsure on its origins exactly. There is a bit of mystery around it.

Dry-summer Oceanic climate (9a)

Average annual precipitation - 18.7 inches : Average annual sunshine hours - 1725

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12 hours ago, UK_Palms said:

 At least a small minority of Porphyrocarpa's would exhibit some degree of clumping/suckering if it was in fact a Dacty or Sylvestris hybrid. They seem to be 100% solitary however.

Never day never lol! This was a specimen originating from a   seed gathered from my own (porphyrocarpa). It used to grow in a public place in Nauplion Greece but was cut off and removed, so that rose shrubs could be planted!

IMG_20170226_155417.thumb.jpg.fbcf61dbfd4d1a6087748eb697c36e61.jpgIMG_20170226_155632.thumb.jpg.2bd5ea81b2e52db38b0331e847bd3de4.jpgIMG_20170226_155625.thumb.jpg.7040ac85a568468ce73a0e81e939d6c3.jpgIMG_20170226_155457.thumb.jpg.d8a10468b967e0ba4d12e63e5db96c6d.jpgIMG_20170226_155606.thumb.jpg.a950a37e826a93915cedbf3948b7c6cd.jpgIMG_20170226_160003.thumb.jpg.311baff106717b0360685e3b2dce870c.jpgIMG_20170226_160011.thumb.jpg.5144d8335ae97085945cd139b19c6702.jpgIMG_20170226_155846.thumb.jpg.0bb64c6f6c11e02949d7c6e565cb733d.jpgIMG_20170226_155940.thumb.jpg.7da631d3eeb77409ca4cbce3ab4427bc.jpg

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My own specimen has always been solitary with very long and straight fronds. Imo the straight fronds (not recurving) is one of the most frequent features of many porphyrocarpa exemplars. Another feature of my exemplar are the very heavy fronds (when cut off at the base ) due to very robust leaf base and thick formidable acanthophylls.  Leaves of mine are by no means shorter than those of the regular CIDP form, according to descriprion given by Siego Rivera e.a. Also very frequently flower stalks of my plant are very long, longer even than those of dactylifera specimens, another trait not mentioned in the above description. And yes, black fruits (khalal stage of maturity) are tastier than brown fruits of the regular form! 

20200301_163221.thumb.jpg.572028a13da5a44d36e9a7978276729c.jpg20200301_163236.thumb.jpg.8cb29dd5d1abb882dbf8d1959701b385.jpgIMG_20180617_110711.thumb.jpg.92b2bb60ccd077594d3b716a65b5ace9.jpgIMG_20180617_110755.thumb.jpg.5a5c7db45b1063e91ab8535543c17f7f.jpgIMG_20161209_155159.thumb.jpg.16b6eb670e2a980a1799fe9705ee2048.jpgIMG_20161209_154513.thumb.jpg.fe8be1fa9a893bb97d8093a1ddb3ad20.jpgIMG_20161010_140835.thumb.jpg.590996ce6f0c3c916191ae76c70d57e9.jpg

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Here is another specimen with red fruits but I can not remember its location. Anyway also this one displays the long, straight, non recurving, leaves.

20191225_171026.thumb.jpg.faae918e088ec866bf86eb35a04dc874.jpg20191225_171140.thumb.jpg.da9af2b278af525347646476d470bc46.jpg20191225_171035.thumb.jpg.f6cdd6a8fa919301878cf35ceb2cc84d.jpg

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All I can say is, it is not only gruit color, that sets apart SOME (?) of the porphyrocarpa forms from the regular CIDP.  Perhaps the term porphyrocarpa as descriptive of a single feature, is used for more than one separate taxa. Fyi you may search in EPS for an old topic with me as author, showing in a public planting young specimens of porphyrocarpa and regular CIDP side by side.

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14 hours ago, UK_Palms said:

I would disregard that information that I posted before. I wrote that over 3 years ago now and my views on the subject have changed somewhat. Porphyrocarpa is more than likely just a variant of regular CIDP that has naturally developed red fruits within a population, perhaps from environmental factors, or it could be a result of selective breeding/propagation.

The red fruit variation more than likely appeared naturally in the native range through genetic mutation. I don't think it is a separate genus or a hybrid of any kind, with say Dactylifera for instance. I think genetic testing has confirmed that it is not hybridised. I have two smallish specimens growing here and they both look like regular CIDP to me.

I do notice a bit more stiffness in the fronds, but not enough to suggest it is a Dacty hybrid or something. It's likely just a bit of natural variation amongst this particular cultivar. At least a small minority of Porphyrocarpa's would exhibit some degree of clumping/suckering if it was in fact a Dacty or Sylvestris hybrid. They seem to be 100% solitary however.

Regards, Ben

Alright thanks for clearing that up. When I got my plant it was also sold as a variety of CIDP not a hybrid. Mine has very stiff leaves compared to CIDP but this may vary anyways. I think it's still a very interesting plant. Natural variation is very likely. The natural populations on the Canary Islands seem to vary all throughout the region. Especially with the presence/absence of water and altitude.

Yes it's me Hortulanus 😂

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1 hour ago, Phoenikakias said:

All I can say is, it is not only gruit color, that sets apart SOME (?) of the porphyrocarpa forms from the regular CIDP.  Perhaps the term porphyrocarpa as descriptive of a single feature, is used for more than one separate taxa. Fyi you may search in EPS for an old topic with me as author, showing in a public planting young specimens of porphyrocarpa and regular CIDP side by side.

Thank you for posting so many pictures and information. Very interesting! What do you mean with EPS?

Yes it's me Hortulanus 😂

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42 minutes ago, Hortulanus said:

Thank you for posting so many pictures and information. Very interesting! What do you mean with EPS?

European Palm Society of course, has own web page palmsociety.org.uk

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3 hours ago, Phoenikakias said:

European Palm Society of course, has own web page palmsociety.org.uk

Ah thank you! Yeah I know their page. I might even have an account there not sure.

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Yes it's me Hortulanus 😂

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