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Savant

Female Phoenix Canariensis and male Medjool pollen

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Savant
Phoenix Canariensis is cold tolerant however it’s fruit is too astringent and not edible.
 
Is it possible to use pollen from male medjool tree to pollinate female phoenix canariensis?
 
1- Will it result in making a hybrid date fruit which is edible, with more flesh and sweet in taste?
 
2- Has anyone seen any such example? anything in the literature, 
has it been tried in date orchards or in the wild?
 
3- Are there any pictures of such a hybrid fruit, details about the quality of such a fruit, taste, size, etc?
 
Please share your experience.
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kinzyjr

Is it possible, yes.  The phoenix genus hybridizes very freely when multiple species are in close enough proximity to each other and their flowering cycle overlaps.  I have no experience hybridizing these two and no knowledge of what the fruit might be like at this point.  My canariensis is still a juvenile.

Welcome to the forums!

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Yort

It is possible to pollinate the canariensis with dactylifera pollen, but it won't have an effect on the fruit. The resulting fruit and seed will be identical to regular canariensis fruit and seeds. If you would grow the hybrid offspring at least some could produce edible fruits.

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PalmatierMeg

Attempts to produce quality fruit from date palms or hybrids in humid, rainy climates - hot or cool - almost invariably result in failure. Dates are produced in hot, dry climates such as the Middle East and So. Calif.

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UK_Palms

If I'm not mistaken, the Phoenix Canariensis var. Porphyrocarpa (red fruits), is a version of CIDP that contains Dacty blood. It comes from a female CIDP being pollenated by Medjool pollen. These specimens are common around the Mediterranean, especially France. People now swear by them as a superior alternative to CIDP since they have survived the worst winters, when CIDP's and Dacty's have been killed off. 

The resulting specimens of this CIDP x Dacty hybridisation bare red fruit (instead of yellow/orange) and have long slender trunks similar to Dacty's, but a full crown of fronds similar to CIDP. The fruit produced are also more edible than traditional CIDP, although not on par with genuine date fruit. I believe these red fruits will still ripen in cooler climates as well, such as the UK and PNW, due to the CIDP genetics. It is also hardier than traditional CIDP thanks to the Dacty blood, taking lows down to 15F, while also retaining the wet-cold resistance of the CIDP.

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dalmatiansoap

We have many Porphyrocarpa in are and beside fruit colors I don't see much difference between regular CIDP. I personally don't think it has many (any) connection with Dactylifera.

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RJ
5 hours ago, UK_Palms said:

If I'm not mistaken, the Phoenix Canariensis var. Porphyrocarpa (red fruits), is a version of CIDP that contains Dacty blood. It comes from a female CIDP being pollenated by Medjool pollen. These specimens are common around the Mediterranean, especially France. People now swear by them as a superior alternative to CIDP since they have survived the worst winters, when CIDP's and Dacty's have been killed off. 

The resulting specimens of this CIDP x Dacty hybridisation bare red fruit (instead of yellow/orange) and have long slender trunks similar to Dacty's, but a full crown of fronds similar to CIDP. The fruit produced are also more edible than traditional CIDP, although not on par with genuine date fruit. I believe these red fruits will still ripen in cooler climates as well, such as the UK and PNW, due to the CIDP genetics. It is also hardier than traditional CIDP thanks to the Dacty blood, taking lows down to 15F, while also retaining the wet-cold resistance of the CIDP.

Interesting.... I hadn't read this. Are these Phoenix Canariensis var. Porphyrocarpa hard to obtain? I'd like to give a few a whirl . 

 

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Cikas
6 hours ago, UK_Palms said:

If I'm not mistaken, the Phoenix Canariensis var. Porphyrocarpa (red fruits), is a version of CIDP that contains Dacty blood. It comes from a female CIDP being pollenated by Medjool pollen. These specimens are common around the Mediterranean, especially France. People now swear by them as a superior alternative to CIDP since they have survived the worst winters, when CIDP's and Dacty's have been killed off. 

The resulting specimens of this CIDP x Dacty hybridisation bare red fruit (instead of yellow/orange) and have long slender trunks similar to Dacty's, but a full crown of fronds similar to CIDP. The fruit produced are also more edible than traditional CIDP, although not on par with genuine date fruit. I believe these red fruits will still ripen in cooler climates as well, such as the UK and PNW, due to the CIDP genetics. It is also hardier than traditional CIDP thanks to the Dacty blood, taking lows down to 15F, while also retaining the wet-cold resistance of the CIDP.

I Disagree. Porphyrocarpa looks like regular CIDP, just with red fruits. Hybrids have traits of both species. We have hybrids too, and they look different from Porphyrocarpa. 

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UK_Palms
1 hour ago, Cikas said:

I Disagree. Porphyrocarpa looks like regular CIDP, just with red fruits. Hybrids have traits of both species. We have hybrids too, and they look different from Porphyrocarpa. 

I have to disagree with your statement. Younger Porphyrocarpa palms look almost identical to CIDP (as do most Phoenix's), but once they are mature and start putting on a lot of trunk, it becomes quite slender like a Dacty and the foliage also seems more grey/blue. It definitely does not have the usual deep green colour to the fronds that the CIDP has. As I said, this is more notable the older the palm gets. There is definitely some kind of hybridisation going on with Dacty or Sylvestris even. Perhaps some appear more CIDP dominant than others though, while some show more dominant Dacty/Sylvestris traits. The differences between regular CIDP and the Porphyrocarpa are definitely apparent though...

- red fruits

- more slender trunk

- more grey/blue frond colour

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Yort
4 hours ago, UK_Palms said:

I have to disagree with your statement. Younger Porphyrocarpa palms look almost identical to CIDP (as do most Phoenix's), but once they are mature and start putting on a lot of trunk, it becomes quite slender like a Dacty and the foliage also seems more grey/blue. It definitely does not have the usual deep green colour to the fronds that the CIDP has. As I said, this is more notable the older the palm gets. There is definitely some kind of hybridisation going on with Dacty or Sylvestris even. Perhaps some appear more CIDP dominant than others though, while some show more dominant Dacty/Sylvestris traits. The differences between regular CIDP and the Porphyrocarpa are definitely apparent though...

- red fruits

- more slender trunk

- more grey/blue frond colourn

Genetic evidence revealed that Porphyrocarpa is not a hybrid but rather a variety of Phoenix canariensis that originated from the Canary Islands:

https://www.academia.edu/14355529/The_date_palm_with_blue_dates_Phoenix_senegalensis_André_Arecaceae_A_horticultural_enigma_is_solved

Also I am scaptical about the differences in cold tolerance, is there any hard evidence to these statements?

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Cikas
8 hours ago, UK_Palms said:

I have to disagree with your statement. Younger Porphyrocarpa palms look almost identical to CIDP (as do most Phoenix's), but once they are mature and start putting on a lot of trunk, it becomes quite slender like a Dacty and the foliage also seems more grey/blue. It definitely does not have the usual deep green colour to the fronds that the CIDP has. As I said, this is more notable the older the palm gets. There is definitely some kind of hybridisation going on with Dacty or Sylvestris even. Perhaps some appear more CIDP dominant than others though, while some show more dominant Dacty/Sylvestris traits. The differences between regular CIDP and the Porphyrocarpa are definitely apparent though...

- red fruits

- more slender trunk

- more grey/blue frond colour

That simply not true. They look the same as regular CIDP. Difference is only in fruits color. We have them here too. Both regular and with red fruits. We also have real hybrids of Datchy and CIDP. And they are more silver and have multiple trunks. CIDP is the most common palm here (or it was before Red palm weevils). And we have (had) a lot of very old specimens (even 200 + years old). Soo I know very well how old CIDP look (both with yellow/orange or red fruits). 

Edited by Cikas

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Savant

Thank you all for responding to my original post, very much appreciated.

This is a subject of curiosity for me. In the literature I have come across hybridization between female Phoenix dactylifera and male Phoenix canariensis resulting in different phenotypes. For example:

Metaxenic effects as related to male palm (Phoenix dactylifera and Phoenix canariensis), yield and quality of Khalas fruit. Journal of Food, Agriculture & Environment Vol.12 (2):523-525. 2014

However I am interested in hand pollinating female Phoenix canariensis with different male pollens of various high quality dactylifera varieties eg. Medjool, Safawi, Khalas, Sukkari, Ajwa. etc.

The pollen appears to have an influence on the characteristics of fruit and seed.

In London, I have seen many male Phoenix canariensis  but yet to find any female Phoenix canariensis.

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