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K. piersoniorum or pyriformis???

Dypsisdean

By Dypsisdean
in DISCUSSING PALM TREES WORLDWIDE

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Dypsisdean Grand Master

Dypsisdean

Posted
Posted

Through the years I've had different people ID these two palms differently. And to make matters worse, so have the labels. Even some "experts" have given me different answers. So I don't know anymore what a real K. piersoniorum is supposed to look like.

This palm was labeled as K. pyriformis, but now with some size I am doubting this and thinking it may be K. piersoniorum. Can anyone tell me with any confidence what it really is?

IMG_3830.jpg

IMG_3831.jpg

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Kona, on The Big Island
Hawaii - Land of Volcanoes

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quaman58 Grand Master

quaman58

Posted
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Dean,

I've stared at my pyriformis for years & here's my 2 cents.  For starters I'm not growing a piersoniorum, so I'm not much help there. The pyriformis seems to be a more robust (as in heavier) trunked than yours looks. Nor do mine have the white waxy crownshaft like yours. Your is also really upright growing compared to the pyriformis I've seen around here.  But all these things could just be a difference in climate I guess. One thing that is similar is the plum colored petiole, but again, I'm not sure if these are characteristic of piersoniorum as well as pyriformis. Sure is pretty though..

Bret

 

Bret

 

Coastal canyon area of San Diego

 

"In the shadow of the Cross"

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Steve Mac Grand Master

Steve Mac

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Yep,  what he said ^ , exactly the same here.

Cheers Steve

It is not dead, it is just senescence.

   

 

 

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ellidro Mentor

ellidro

Posted
Posted

Dean are you sure it isn't Cyphokentia macrostachya? Ive never seen a pyriformis or piersoniourum with a white waxy crownshaft but both Cyphokentia macrostachya and cerifera do.

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Encinitas on a hill 1.5 miles from the ocean.

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Dypsisdean Grand Master

Dypsisdean

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15 minutes ago, ellidro said:

Dean are you sure it isn't Cyphokentia macrostachya? Ive never seen a pyriformis or piersoniourum with a white waxy crownshaft but both Cyphokentia macrostachya and cerifera do.

Hey Nick - no, I'm not sure. I was really surprised when I took off the latest leaf sheath and it was so white underneath. I did notice that the color and habit was very similar to a Cyphokentia. This came from a collection, that was very well labeled, and correct. But this one has me perplexed.

But I know I've never had a palm labeled or bought as Cyphokentia (unfortunately).

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Kona, on The Big Island
Hawaii - Land of Volcanoes

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joe_OC Grand Master

joe_OC

Posted
Posted
19 minutes ago, ellidro said:

Dean are you sure it isn't Cyphokentia macrostachya? Ive never seen a pyriformis or piersoniourum with a white waxy crownshaft but both Cyphokentia macrostachya and cerifera do.

Good eye, Nick.  Took this pic off Palmpedia of a C. cerifera.  Upgright growth habit and color sure looks like Dean's:

 

 

ccerifera.jpg

Huntington Beach, CA

USDA Zone 10a/10b

Sunset Zone 24

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BS Man about Palms Grand Master

BS Man about Palms

Posted
Posted

Well done and a tip of the hat to Nick. I can't see any reason to argue with his assessment. :greenthumb:

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Zone 10a at best after 2007 AND 2013, on SW facing hill, 1 1/2 miles from coast in Oceanside, CA. 30-98 degrees, and 45-80deg. about 95% of the time.

"The great workman of nature is time."   ,  "Genius is nothing but a great aptitude for patience."

-George-Louis Leclerc de Buffon-

I do some experiments and learning in my garden with palms so you don't have to experience the pain! Look at my old threads to find various observations and tips!

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Dypsisdean Grand Master

Dypsisdean

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Agreed - looks suspiciously similar - as do many of the other pics in Palmpedia as well. It would be a pleasant surprise as far as I'm concerned. But I think that would mean I have three of these and no K. piersoniorum - a mistaken identity I'll be happy to live with. This might also explain why these have been so much slower than I would have thought.

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Kona, on The Big Island
Hawaii - Land of Volcanoes

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quaman58 Grand Master

quaman58

Posted
Posted

Agreed, looks awfully close. Except the color of the petioles. Possibly just variation on that.

Bret

 

Coastal canyon area of San Diego

 

"In the shadow of the Cross"

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LJG Grand Master

LJG

Posted
Posted

You can easily rule out pyriformis. I would say this is piersoniorum and the sure fire way to tell is look at the newest leaf. In your environment you might need to wait for a new one thanks to the rain you get, but piersoniorum is the only NewCal to open with a blueish leaf. It is an unmistakable glaucous film that sometimes can be pinkish-blue. Both Cyphokentia species are plane old green new leaves. 

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Len

Vista, CA (Zone 10a)

Shadowridge Area

"Show me your garden and I shall tell you what you are."

-- Alfred Austin

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joe_OC Grand Master

joe_OC

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56 minutes ago, LJG said:

You can easily rule out pyriformis. I would say this is piersoniorum and the sure fire way to tell is look at the newest leaf. In your environment you might need to wait for a new one thanks to the rain you get, but piersoniorum is the only NewCal to open with a blueish leaf. It is an unmistakable glaucous film that sometimes can be pinkish-blue. Both Cyphokentia species are plane old green new leaves. 

How do you account for the glaucous crown shaft? Growth habit and rate also seems more in line with cerifera.   

Here is a K piersonorium at Floribunda.  Growth habit and lack of glaucous crownshaft looks very different from Dean’s palm:

 

 

C9096495-0DF4-46EC-9223-72B2AAF57375.png

Huntington Beach, CA

USDA Zone 10a/10b

Sunset Zone 24

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joe_OC Grand Master

joe_OC

Posted
Posted

HA!  Looking at pics closer...  I agree with Len that we need to wait for a new frond to open...  

Huntington Beach, CA

USDA Zone 10a/10b

Sunset Zone 24

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LJG Grand Master

LJG

Posted
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What timing, mine is opening a new leaf where you can see the color I am talking about.

 

AB52A788-8EC3-413F-8EEF-314DF5DBA422.jpeg

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Len

Vista, CA (Zone 10a)

Shadowridge Area

"Show me your garden and I shall tell you what you are."

-- Alfred Austin

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Dypsisdean Grand Master

Dypsisdean

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You know what they say about "to good to be true." I'll try and remember to check back in when a new frond opens.

Here's a pic of K. piersoniorum from habitat on Palmpedia.

Imgflore18463_5743d3.jpg

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Kona, on The Big Island
Hawaii - Land of Volcanoes

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ellidro Mentor

ellidro

Posted
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I agree with Len in the sure fire way in telling is the blueish hue of a new leaf. I still lean on it being cyphokentia. That pic on Palmpedia is the only photo I have ever seen of a piersoniorum with a glaucus crownshaft, which makes me question whether that pic is correctly labeled more than it helps me in thinking your palm is piersoniorum. Either way I’m envious and think you should be a happy camper. If it’s piersoniorum it’s a very attractive one and if it’s cyphokentia you are in rare company with having one that size.

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Encinitas on a hill 1.5 miles from the ocean.

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Dypsisdean Grand Master

Dypsisdean

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50 minutes ago, ellidro said:

That pic on Palmpedia is the only photo I have ever seen of a piersoniorum with a glaucus crownshaft, which makes me question whether that pic is correctly labeled more than it helps me in thinking your palm is piersoniorum.

Great minds think alike. :)

I have another palm - same batch, same size, same label - but planted in shade. Doesn't look anything this one, and does look like it could be K. pyriformis. But no glaucus or pink petiole coloring at all. It looks like Dypsis isn't the only genus with mysteries.

Best guess is a new leaf opening is about 6-weeks away. Stay tuned.

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Kona, on The Big Island
Hawaii - Land of Volcanoes

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BS Man about Palms Grand Master

BS Man about Palms

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Posted

Gee... Someone I know took some pics that are on Palmpedia of a piersoniorum opening a powder blue leaf.. :innocent:

Zone 10a at best after 2007 AND 2013, on SW facing hill, 1 1/2 miles from coast in Oceanside, CA. 30-98 degrees, and 45-80deg. about 95% of the time.

"The great workman of nature is time."   ,  "Genius is nothing but a great aptitude for patience."

-George-Louis Leclerc de Buffon-

I do some experiments and learning in my garden with palms so you don't have to experience the pain! Look at my old threads to find various observations and tips!

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LJG Grand Master

LJG

Posted
Posted
3 hours ago, ellidro said:

I agree with Len in the sure fire way in telling is the blueish hue of a new leaf. I still lean on it being cyphokentia. That pic on Palmpedia is the only photo I have ever seen of a piersoniorum with a glaucus crownshaft, which makes me question whether that pic is correctly labeled more than it helps me in thinking your palm is piersoniorum. Either way I’m envious and think you should be a happy camper. If it’s piersoniorum it’s a very attractive one and if it’s cyphokentia you are in rare company with having one that size.

I agree it looks like a Cyphokentia at first glance.  But the more I looked, something just seemed off. 

Len

Vista, CA (Zone 10a)

Shadowridge Area

"Show me your garden and I shall tell you what you are."

-- Alfred Austin

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richnorm Grand Master

richnorm

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Posted

I don't think that is Cyphokentia.  Have a good look at the leaflets.  Cypho's have the ridges on top whilst  Kentiopsis has a central rib on top with the minor ones underneath which show up as inverted ridges on top. 

IMG_1763.JPG

IMG_1765.JPG

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Dypsisdean Grand Master

Dypsisdean

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7 hours ago, richnorm said:

I don't think that is Cyphokentia.  Have a good look at the leaflets.  Cypho's have the ridges on top whilst  Kentiopsis has a central rib on top with the minor ones underneath which show up as inverted ridges on top.

Just checked - this palm has an unmistakable "central rib on top with the minor ones underneath which show up as inverted ridges on top" - so looks like it's a K. piersoniorum. The collective consciousness of PalmTalk does it again. :) Thanks Rich.

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Kona, on The Big Island
Hawaii - Land of Volcanoes

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Dypsisdean Grand Master

Dypsisdean

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For anyone interested in the new leaf color - opened much sooner than I expected.

IMG_3836.jpg

IMG_3833.jpg

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Kona, on The Big Island
Hawaii - Land of Volcanoes

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MattyB Grand Master

MattyB

Posted
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Len and richnorm for the win!

Matt Bradford

"Manambe Lavaka"

Spring Valley, CA (8.5 miles inland from San Diego Bay)

10B on the hill (635 ft. elevation)

9B in the canyon (520 ft. elevation)

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KrisKupsch Proficient

KrisKupsch

Posted
Posted

Looks like piersoniorum to me also.

check out these piersoniorum at Tontouta airport in New Caledonia. Taken a month ago. Inside they have gone all silvery. 

7A199608-B85E-4EBD-9957-8BF81FE48ACA.jpeg

C88646AC-C2F8-4A64-BCCD-ED7CFB04ECE6.jpeg

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