Syagrus romanzoffiana var santa catarina in pnw?

[Chester B 3,134]

This is what I found.

 

Lowest Portland temperatures in recent years

23F November 29, 2019

23F February 23, 2018

18F January 13, 2017

24F December 16, 2016

26F November 26, 2015

17F February 06, 2014

14F December 08, 2013

27F March 07, 2012 

18F February 26, 2011

16F November 24, 2010

They take these temps in Portland proper which gets blasted with cold air from the Columbia River Gorge.  Fortunately where we bought our home isn't in a direct path so we trend 2-3F warmer.  The further you go back the colder it gets - there has been a distinct change in min and max temperatures in this area of the country.

21 hours ago, sipalms said:

Plant it in late autumn/fall (yes you read that right!) - this is what I have done. It makes you nervous about the first winter, but you're guaranteed so much more growth the first summer as the roots naturally take off as the weather warms up. If you plant in a cold climate in spring, then the roots that had just started to grow will get transplant shock and not start to be established until the end of the season. When you plant in the fall, the roots have already done their job and are going sleepy so not as bothered by transplantation. I've done Queen palm plantings in the cold late May (your November) and in warm late October (your April) and the difference in the first season is phenomenal. The autumn one looked tatty by the end of winter but fully replenished its crown by the end of summer, yet the spring one hardly pushed a single frond all summer and has only just started to pick up pace in its second summer.

Interesting theory.  I did plant a Butia and a bunch of Chamaedorea microspadix in September last year and Winter came super early with October and November being our coldest months.  Fortunately spring has come early so I will pay close attention to these to see how they do.

[sipalms 1,148]

23 hours ago, Chester B said:

They take these temps in Portland proper which gets blasted with cold air from the Columbia River Gorge.  Fortunately where we bought our home isn't in a direct path so we trend 2-3F warmer.  The further you go back the colder it gets - there has been a distinct change in min and max temperatures in this area of the country.

But even 2-3f higher, would still kill a Queen no matter the variety wouldn't it?

How long do you typically have below freezing, and in what weather circumstances?

For example here, our coldest frosts are always following a cold snap, once the weather has settled and the skies are clear.

We would very rarely get below 32f for more than about 12-13 hours and normally always followed by clear sunny skies.  So we could have a windy rainy/sleety storm come through with daytime temps around 45f, then the skies clear at night and the temperature could drop to -23f, followed by a crystal clear sunny day the following day with temps back up to 54f. This I believe gives palms a greater chance of recovery with less damage than a continental type freeze where a huge 'blob' of freezing air moves over landmass even during the day.

[Chester B 3,134]

Pretty similar sounding weather to be honest.  The only thing is I think you probably get more sun in the winter.  When we are socked in with clouds its never very cold, only when we get clear skies is when we experience that, along with frost.

That being said I haven't seen any queen palms around, nor heard of any, so I think my chances of success are low.  They can be sourced at a pretty cheap price so I am tempted to try in my best microclimates.

[Happypalm 5]

Hi, i want to share with you some pictures of robust Syagrus i found on google (Uruguay and southern Brazil), i am not sure if they are "Santa Catarina" variety but they look bigger than the common Syagrus

[Happypalm 5]

I think the Santa Catarina Queens have to be large/mature before they show their true hardiness, but maybe i am wrong

In our city the lowest temperature every winter is 24F (-4.5C), winter max temperatures around 50-55F (10-13C). Summers are warm and dry.

 

Will a common/tropical Queen survive 24F winters undamaged when mature? Or it is better to try a Santa Catarina variety?

Edited July 11, 2020 by Happypalm

[Fusca 2,932]

37 minutes ago, Happypalm said:

Will a common/tropical Queen survive 24F winters undamaged when mature? Or it is better to try a Santa Catarina variety?

A common queen should handle 24°F.  Around here they show damage around 22°F and can be killed outright below 20°F depending on duration.  I have one that survived a dry 20°F as a juvenile its first winter in the ground.  I wrapped it with lights and a sheet on consecutive nights of 20°F and 26°F but haven't given it any protection since.  No cold damage.  Welcome to Palmtalk Alexandra!

Jon

[Happypalm 5]

22 hours ago, Fusca said:

A common queen should handle 24°F.  Around here they show damage around 22°F and can be killed outright below 20°F depending on duration.  I have one that survived a dry 20°F as a juvenile its first winter in the ground.  I wrapped it with lights and a sheet on consecutive nights of 20°F and 26°F but haven't given it any protection since.  No cold damage.  Welcome to Palmtalk Alexandra!

Jon

Hi Jon, i'm happy to find you guys. Then i think a common queen will do fine here!

Thanks for your answer

[matthedlund 71]

Sorry if I've already commented this on this thread, but I'm in Seattle and trialing some Santa Catarina Queen palm seedlings I got from Nigel. Nothing much to report yet, other than they've sprouted.

[trachyman 9]

I tried a Queen here years ago....Let's just say good thing they are relatively cheap. 

[UK_Palms 1,393]

Here are my Santa Catarina Queen seedlings at 51N.

I got the seeds from a very reputable source here in the UK, however I received them later than I would have liked. They weren't germinated until late spring, which is a bit late to start the more tropical palm seedlings at this latitude. Thankfully they were very quick to germinate (3-4 weeks). These weren't above soil until mid June here though. Nonetheless they are coming along well. Most are onto their second strap leaf now. Hopefully they'll have 3 strap leafs by the end of the year. 

I have 23 seedlings in total, although about 4-5 of the smaller, stragglers may get culled in the coming weeks. Or I may just leave them outside over winer to see how those ones fair, and see what temperatures cause damage/demise? I suppose it would help to experiment with those ones, rather than to outright cull the smaller stragglers. I could certainly put them to use still. The marks/damage on some of the fronds are where they didn't open properly and the segments were stuck together, so I eventually prised them apart. Thus leaving some scarring. 

The better specimens are obviously going to get mollycoddled for the next few years, until they are a decent size to risk leaving outside during winter. I'll probably fully protect them during the first winter and then start exposing them to cooler conditions in their second year, while still protecting during cold nights/cold spells. Once a few start trunking, I will plant them out here in protected spots. That could be 5-10 years from now though. I'm adamant that I will have success with at least a couple of them as I pioneer these Surrey Queens.  

I'm also planning on doing some rogue, guerrilla-style plantings around here in the not too distant future. I've got a number of excess Chamaerops, Phoenix, Washie and now Queen seedlings that can be secretly planted in remote places here in western Surrey county. Just to test the waters, in terms of hardiness, and to bring some palm delights to rural Surrey. I might make a secret palm garden near my local woods with my excess seedlings. That could be an experiment/project for next season... 

[Chester B 3,134]

Don’t cull those palms. I would suggest posting them for sale or free for fellow palm enthusiasts in the local area. 

[UK_Palms 1,393]

5 hours ago, Chester B said:

Don’t cull those palms. I would suggest posting them for sale or free for fellow palm enthusiasts in the local area. 

I won't cull them. I will probably test the water with the runt seedlings though, in regards to how winter hardy they actually are, since I can afford to lose the runts. Fingers crossed they will pull through and show very little winter damage. But again they are expendable.  

I don't think fellow palm enthusiasts would want the smaller, runt seedlings that I have to offer, and there certainly isn't many other palm enthusiasts around my area. Not to the extent that I am. I wouldn't trust giving a healthy, vigorous Queen seedling to someone else around here, let alone a slow growing runt of a Queen. They'd kill it during the first winter here at 51N. 

I'm better off just keeping them myself or testing the weaker, expendable ones for my own reference when it comes to their hardiness at this age. 

[Alberto 1,619]

On 2/28/2020 at 9:22 PM, ErikSJI said:

Correct me if I am wrong but Santa Catrina area is protected and palms or seeds should not be exported. Same with butia erispotha. Anyone want to shed some light on that?

Santa Catarina is one of the southern states of south Brazil, together with Paraná and Rio Grande do Sul.  Brazilian law doesn' t permit seeds and plant material go out, easily. " It' s called "Biopirataria".  There are lots of protected areas in this states but the whole state of Santa Catarina isn' t protected, of course....

[climate change virginia 172]

On 5/20/2019 at 1:07 PM, Cikas said:

I bought them from this Shop. They have photos of old specimens. https://mypalmshop.com/product/Syagrus-romanzoffiana-sp.-'Santa-Catarina' I can confirm from my own experience that they are more cold hardy than regular Queens 

do they ship to usa

[Cikas 443]

22 hours ago, climate change virginia said:

do they ship to usa

I do not know. 

https://www.mypalmshop.com/shipping-and-delivery

[climate change virginia 172]

can these survive 10f protected?

Edited December 1, 2020 by climate change virginia

[DAVEinMB 2,019]

1 hour ago, climate change virginia said:

can these survive 10f protected?

Well a sheet is technically protection, but so is a bio dome.

The goal behind any protection given to a plant is to make the plant believe it's somewhere else, somewhere warmer. Replace 10f with any arbitrary X° and the answer will be yes, the amount of work required will change, however. If it's 40°F outside I may need to throw a jacket on to feel comfortable - i won't die if I skip wearing a jacket but it will keep me happier. if it's 0°F out, a jacket is prolly not gonna cut it so I'd prolly opt to stay in my house, my protective structure. 2 very different approaches for 2 very different weather scenarios. 

Instead of asking the same question a dozen different ways why not get a hold of some inexpensive, tender palms and run some experiments. That way you'll have concrete data to not only share with the forum but also answer a lot of these questions you have

[climate change virginia 172]

17 minutes ago, DAVEinMB said:

Instead of asking the same question a dozen different ways why not get a hold of some inexpensive, tender palms and run some experiments. That way you'll have concrete data to not only share with the forum but also answer a lot of these questions you have

thats a great idea

[Love them palms 220]

thought I would bring this post back.I bought 3 from @matthedlundthat I will put to the test in Mukilteo wa Z8B 

[Chester B 3,134]

I have two “littoralis” but they’re too small right now. Going to grow them out for another year or two. 
 

@Love them palms any pics?  Are you trialing then this winter?

Edited August 29, 2021 by Chester B

[Love them palms 220]

1 hour ago, Chester B said:

I have two “littoralis” but they’re too small right now. Going to grow them out for another year or two. 
 

@Love them palms any pics?  Are you trialing then this winter?

I,m in that same boat. they are still seedlings so they will spend winter in the greenhouse. I would show pics but I can't upload my pics for some reason .

[NWpalms@206 439]

Guess these are 2 of Nigels, thank you Matt H! We’ll see what they do here on Vashon in warm 8b, possibly 9a microclimates. We saw low of 18 in this “arctic” event for one night, then over 21f since then and forecast. I’ve heard  we see a little less rainfall than surrounding mainland due to puget sound buffer but who knows. Probably give them another winter in the greenhouse then hope they’re big enough for the stronger one to go on south wall facing south all day sun. With some protection maybe there’s hope! Don’t know what to expect for growth rate. 

[Chester B 3,134]

11 minutes ago, NWpalms@206 said:

Guess these are 2 of Nigels, thank you Matt H! We’ll see what they do here on Vashon in warm 8b, possibly 9a microclimates. We saw low of 18 in this “arctic” event for one night, then over 21f since then and forecast. I’ve heard  we see a little less rainfall than surrounding mainland due to puget sound buffer but who knows. Probably give them another winter in the greenhouse then hope they’re big enough for the stronger one to go on south wall facing south all day sun. With some protection maybe there’s hope! Don’t know what to expect for growth rate. 

Those look great I’d love to get my hands on some. Any more availability on these?

[Laaz 1,517]

Pull up some street view maps of Argentina...

https://www.google.com/maps/@-27.1307626,-55.3910433,3a,58.2y,97.93h,86.97t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sI78_Tzu0iYdxsMzAF7EDgA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

[Laaz 1,517]

Same with Santa Catarina Brazil... Navigated down the roads.

https://www.google.com/maps/@-27.2727634,-49.7345592,3a,65.5y,298.2h,100.16t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sBWSZ-Wog11t2nEkY5_znFw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

[Laaz 1,517]

https://www.google.com/maps/@-27.2854025,-49.7717262,3a,75y,334h,110.37t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sXUl-6Zd0ey-2LBrv_5WFjw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

[NWpalms@206 439]

9 hours ago, Chester B said:

Those look great I’d love to get my hands on some. Any more availability on these?

I believe he has some left, not sure how many. Matt Hedlund at Wanderlust Nursery, turns out he’s right down the street from where I work in Seattle. He commented previously on this thread and also is on Facebook. Or wanderlustnursery.com. That’s also where I got my jubutia F3 x Syagrus Schizophylla! He’s got a couple of those left too, that’s Richard Lindbergs creation. 

[Paradise Found 920]

Syagrus Schizophylla is a beautiful palm but it loves heat and grows slowly so it will be interesting to see what the hardiness and growth rate is on this mule.

[NWpalms@206 439]

1 hour ago, Paradise Found said:

Syagrus Schizophylla is a beautiful palm but it loves heat and grows slowly so it will be interesting to see what the hardiness and growth rate is on this mule.

This one I feel like is borderline, but couldnt help myself due to its rarity I had to have one. Its probably going to live in a 24" box, and spend the worst of the winters in a greenhouse. Only going in ground at the point where it outgrows the 13Ft ceiling and hope for the best. This is Likely also the fate of the less vigorous of my 2 Santa Catarina Queens, life in a box and greenhouse winters. But the stronger Catarina is going in ground for data collection to share with others in PNW.  The Catarina Probably my most Interesting in the group.... Can it be done?! could there be a future for Catarina queens here? Well see i guess.

[Chester B 3,134]

4 hours ago, NWpalms@206 said:

I believe he has some left, not sure how many. Matt Hedlund at Wanderlust Nursery, turns out he’s right down the street from where I work in Seattle. He commented previously on this thread and also is on Facebook. Or wanderlustnursery.com. That’s also where I got my jubutia F3 x Syagrus Schizophylla! He’s got a couple of those left too, that’s Richard Lindbergs creation. 

Thanks. I’ll check that out. 

[NWpalms@206 439]

4 hours ago, Laaz said:

https://www.google.com/maps/@-27.2854025,-49.7717262,3a,75y,334h,110.37t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sXUl-6Zd0ey-2LBrv_5WFjw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Nice, that was cool cruising the street and seeing the Palms! good idea!

[NWpalms@206 439]

9 minutes ago, Chester B said:

Thanks. I’ll check that out. 

His website says out of stock both the Parrot mule and the Santa Catarina. But he had both last week when I got them. Give him a shout hes a nice fella. 

[NWpalms@206 439]

Chester B.. Are you TropicalPDX on youtube? If so, Im a subscriber and enjoy your videos!

[Chester B 3,134]

15 minutes ago, NWpalms@206 said:

Chester B.. Are you TropicalPDX on youtube? If so, Im a subscriber and enjoy your videos!

Yep that’s me. Awesome - glad you like them!

[matthedlund 71]

53 minutes ago, NWpalms@206 said:

His website says out of stock both the Parrot mule and the Santa Catarina. But he had both last week when I got them. Give him a shout hes a nice fella. 

We've got plenty of Santa Catarina Queens in large bands as well as about 8 of the Schizophylla cross in 5 gallon. We just have all plants listed as out stock as we're not shipping plants during the winter.

[RJ 672]

25 minutes ago, matthedlund said:

We've got plenty of Santa Catarina Queens in large bands as well as about 8 of the Schizophylla cross in 5 gallon. We just have all plants listed as out stock as we're not shipping plants during the winter.

Can we pay for a SC queen or two now and then ship in the spring?

[Love them palms 220]

5 hours ago, NWpalms@206 said:

I believe he has some left, not sure how many. Matt Hedlund at Wanderlust Nursery, turns out he’s right down the street from where I work in Seattle. He commented previously on this thread and also is on Facebook. Or wanderlustnursery.com. That’s also where I got my jubutia F3 x Syagrus Schizophylla! He’s got a couple of those left too, that’s Richard Lindbergs creation. 

I have one as well, covered in frost cloth. Hopefully it survived this cold. anything that I have with Queen in it ( BxJxQ and Jubutia x Queen, one with schizophylla) have me worried. I have 2 Jubaea x Queen that I think are OK. all are covered. I'm sure they are hardy enough to survive this cold . weatherman says things are gonna start warming up thank god.

[Love them palms 220]

55 minutes ago, matthedlund said:

We've got plenty of Santa Catarina Queens in large bands as well as about 8 of the Schizophylla cross in 5 gallon. We just have all plants listed as out stock as we're not shipping plants during the winter.

hopefully I don't have to get another jubutia x schizophylla from you, haven't checked the one I covered in frost cloth yet

[NWpalms@206 439]

2 hours ago, matthedlund said:

We've got plenty of Santa Catarina Queens in large bands as well as about 8 of the Schizophylla cross in 5 gallon. We just have all plants listed as out stock as we're not shipping plants during the winter.

Thanks for chiming in, felt a little odd advertising for you lol, Hope you don’t mind me spreading good word about ya! 

[matthedlund 71]

32 minutes ago, NWpalms@206 said:

Thanks for chiming in, felt a little odd advertising for you lol, Hope you don’t mind me spreading good word about ya! 

Not at all! I obviously don't advertise for myself enough.