Syagrus romanzoffiana var santa catarina in pnw?

[jwitt]

21 minutes ago, MarcusH said:

Correction Transmit heat not light.  

False statement.  

 

 

[Alberto]

1 hour ago, MarcusH said:

But radiation causes objects to heat once they can absorb radiation in that case a plant is an object . UV rays don't transmit lights we all know that.  Palms love heat don't they ? The warmer the temperature the faster the growth rate of course until a certain point.  

My comment was only because of the phrase " Plants use light, not radiation ".  LIGHT IS RADIATION.

[jwitt]

https://www.thermal-engineering.org/what-is-ultraviolet-catastrophe-rayleigh-jeans-catastrophe-definition/

[ShadyDan]

All right, can’t help but jump in here with a few points. 
 

Yes, visible light IS radiation. It’s just part of the radiation spectrum we can see. Plants gather the vast majority most of their photosynthesis from the visible light spectrum. Only a tiny bit from UV radiation (see helpful graph below). You will also see that they absorb very little in the green wavelength and is reflected back, hence why plants are green! 

Is the UV radiation that much stronger in lower latitudes to make a difference on photosynthetic ability? Not likely. For what it’s worth, strong UV radiation also exists during the summer even at 49 degrees north here, just ask the sunburn my shoulders got yesterday from a hike (and I’m not a super pale white guy either!). As someone else mentioned, the sun also hangs around longer every day here in the summer at high latitudes to bask all the plants in UVs and light longer. Sun rose today at 5:13AM today and won’t set till 9:16PM. Final point, why are all the palms and other subtropicals is my greenhouse super healthy when glass filters out a huge chunk of UVs? Probably because it doesn’t matter. 
 

Bottom line is that saying that UV radiation would be a make or break from growing low latitude species just doesn’t hold up. Queens don’t grow well because the growing season is much shorter and cooler. UK, PNW, or whatever, the growing season for heat loving plants this for north is 6 months TOPS. That’s 6 months spent just sitting there doing nothing and being susceptible to cold snaps, constant wet, and whatever else might invite disease and death. 

[jwitt]

20 hours ago, MarcusH said:

Any electromagnetic radiation regardless of its form gamma rays, x-rays, ultraviolet,  visible,  infrared,  microwaves or radiowaves , if it's absorbed it will heat the object like a plant for instance.  Every plant will react differently to it some can't get enough of it some can only handle very small doses. There're 3 forms of UV rays.  2 only reach the earth  surface while UV-C doesn't even reach earth's surface.   While UV rays are invisible they don't benefit photosynthesis , you're right about that but it heats the object which a lot of palms prefer like the Queen thrives in hotter temperatures.  Of course 180 degrees Fahrenheit will most likely fry a palm. Why are most palms located closer to the equator? Because it is warmer and also warmer for a longer period of time.  While our earth's vegetation benefits from electromagnetic radiation,  us humans are more at risk.  

 

To claim UVA/B heat objects(including plants) is false and misleading. 

Put sunscreen(block UV) on your car and there is no measurable difference in temperature.

Heat transfer drops off at the UV spectrum and is defined as the "UV catastrophe".  Actual Albert Einstein stuff.  

 

 

 

[MarcusH]

45 minutes ago, jwitt said:

To claim UVA/B heat objects(including plants) is false and misleading. 

Put sunscreen(block UV) on your car and there is no measurable difference in temperature.

Heat transfer drops off at the UV spectrum and is defined as the "UV catastrophe".  Actual Albert Einstein stuff.  

 

 

 

Then a whole bunch of scientists are just dumb. I wonder where you get your sources from . I don't even bother reading YOUR False claims anymore because that's a lot of balony . 

[MarcusH]

2 hours ago, ShadyDan said:

All right, can’t help but jump in here with a few points. 
 

Yes, visible light IS radiation. It’s just part of the radiation spectrum we can see. Plants gather the vast majority most of their photosynthesis from the visible light spectrum. Only a tiny bit from UV radiation (see helpful graph below). You will also see that they absorb very little in the green wavelength and is reflected back, hence why plants are green! 

Is the UV radiation that much stronger in lower latitudes to make a difference on photosynthetic ability? Not likely. For what it’s worth, strong UV radiation also exists during the summer even at 49 degrees north here, just ask the sunburn my shoulders got yesterday from a hike (and I’m not a super pale white guy either!). As someone else mentioned, the sun also hangs around longer every day here in the summer at high latitudes to bask all the plants in UVs and light longer. Sun rose today at 5:13AM today and won’t set till 9:16PM. Final point, why are all the palms and other subtropicals is my greenhouse super healthy when glass filters out a huge chunk of UVs? Probably because it doesn’t matter. 
 

Bottom line is that saying that UV radiation would be a make or break from growing low latitude species just doesn’t hold up. Queens don’t grow well because the growing season is much shorter and cooler. UK, PNW, or whatever, the growing season for heat loving plants this for north is 6 months TOPS. That’s 6 months spent just sitting there doing nothing and being susceptible to cold snaps, constant wet, and whatever else might invite disease and death. 

You're right about that but what my whole point is that I never mentioned that UV rays is beneficial to photosynthesis I'm more moving towards heat not light.  If an object absorbes UV rays it will heat up , by how much I can't tell you I'm just copying the words what some scientist said and I think they have more knowledge than jwitt or us . I'm aware of the dosage and damage to DNA but with everything else the right balance and duration can turn things around.  It's proven that UV can sterilize water as lots of people use it in the aquaristic scene. My friend does it professionally. They even use UV C rays in a safe procedure which is kind of impressive.  It can fight against fungus and pest which also can influence plant growth . You need to think about the whole thing not just looking straight forward but you're right about your post otherwise.  Good input . 

[Foxpalms]

2 hours ago, ShadyDan said:

All right, can’t help but jump in here with a few points. 
 

Yes, visible light IS radiation. It’s just part of the radiation spectrum we can see. Plants gather the vast majority most of their photosynthesis from the visible light spectrum. Only a tiny bit from UV radiation (see helpful graph below). You will also see that they absorb very little in the green wavelength and is reflected back, hence why plants are green! 

Is the UV radiation that much stronger in lower latitudes to make a difference on photosynthetic ability? Not likely. For what it’s worth, strong UV radiation also exists during the summer even at 49 degrees north here, just ask the sunburn my shoulders got yesterday from a hike (and I’m not a super pale white guy either!). As someone else mentioned, the sun also hangs around longer every day here in the summer at high latitudes to bask all the plants in UVs and light longer. Sun rose today at 5:13AM today and won’t set till 9:16PM. Final point, why are all the palms and other subtropicals is my greenhouse super healthy when glass filters out a huge chunk of UVs? Probably because it doesn’t matter. 
 

Bottom line is that saying that UV radiation would be a make or break from growing low latitude species just doesn’t hold up. Queens don’t grow well because the growing season is much shorter and cooler. UK, PNW, or whatever, the growing season for heat loving plants this for north is 6 months TOPS. That’s 6 months spent just sitting there doing nothing and being susceptible to cold snaps, constant wet, and whatever else might invite disease and death. 

Even here at 51N the UV index at the moment is an 8/very high on days with clear skies. I use the UV index to measure how strong the sun is, for example if the UV index is an 8 in the summer all wavelengths will be more intense. I agree it's more to do with the duration of heat. Queen palms also seem to grow faster with warmth + humidity and on warm days and especially on hot days, the humidity is almost always pretty low here. Syagrus romanzoffianana here isn't dormant for 6 months, it's roughly around 3 months. However the other 3 months March, April and November they will be growing but fairly slowly, but of course it depends on the year. This spring for example was way below average so it was growing a lot slower compared to last spring when the temperatures were above average.

Edited June 5, 2023 by Foxpalms

[MarcusH]

13 minutes ago, Foxpalms said:

Even here at 51N the UV index at the moment is an 8/very high on days with clear skies. I use the UV index to measure how strong the sun is, for example if the UV index is an 8 in the summer all wavelengths will be more intense. I agree it's more to do with the duration of heat. Queen palms also seem to grow faster with warmth + humidity and on warm days and especially on hot days, the humidity is almost always pretty low here. Syagrus romanzoffianana here isn't dormant for 6 months, it's roughly around 3 months. However the other 3 months March, April and November they will be growing but fairly slowly, but of course it depends on the year. This spring for example was way below average so it was growing a lot slower compared to last spring when the temperatures were above average.

I can only confirm your observations and you're absolutely right with your statement.  Very well said 

[jwitt]

1 hour ago, MarcusH said:

Then a whole bunch of scientists are just dumb. I wonder where you get your sources from . I don't even bother reading YOUR False claims anymore because that's a lot of balony . 

Google "UV catastrophe"

You may learn something concerning UV heat transfer, or more precise, the lack thereof. 

[RJ]

4 hours ago, Foxpalms said:

Even here at 51N the UV index at the moment is an 8/very high on days with clear skies. I use the UV index to measure how strong the sun is, for example if the UV index is an 8 in the summer all wavelengths will be more intense. I agree it's more to do with the duration of heat. Queen palms also seem to grow faster with warmth + humidity and on warm days and especially on hot days, the humidity is almost always pretty low here. Syagrus romanzoffianana here isn't dormant for 6 months, it's roughly around 3 months. However the other 3 months March, April and November they will be growing but fairly slowly, but of course it depends on the year. This spring for example was way below average so it was growing a lot slower compared to last spring when the temperatures were above average.

Sabal’s follow this pattern as well. When our humidity kicks in and the nights are down right balmy they really take off, (for a sabal that is) growers in CA I would say can confirm this. Plenty of heat but low humidity and the night time temps drop Ike a rock in comparison. 

[jwitt]

6 hours ago, Foxpalms said:

Even here at 51N the UV index at the moment is an 8/very high on days with clear skies. I use the UV index to measure how strong the sun is, for example if the UV index is an 8 in the summer all wavelengths will be more intense. I agree it's more to do with the duration of heat. Queen palms also seem to grow faster with warmth + humidity and on warm days and especially on hot days, the humidity is almost always pretty low here. Syagrus romanzoffianana here isn't dormant for 6 months, it's roughly around 3 months. However the other 3 months March, April and November they will be growing but fairly slowly, but of course it depends on the year. This spring for example was way below average so it was growing a lot slower compared to last spring when the temperatures were above average.

Clouds can dampen the sun, but increase the UV.  

But as you state, a high UV forecast would be an indication of clear skies and air.

https://www.americanscientist.org/article/sunshine-on-a-cloudy-day

Edited June 6, 2023 by jwitt

[Arecaceus]

On 6/4/2023 at 12:01 AM, MarcusH said:

There's a reason why plants and trees grow quicker in warmer temperature than in cooler. When it comes to palms some require more heat than others to thrive.  Remember that guy from England who's growing a Queen?  He barely gets 3 fronds per growing season so claiming UV index , latitude doesn't play a huge role is not correct.  All other palms in London grow slower than here in Texas. Mine got completely defoliated and already has 3 fronds on it and I still have about 6 months left before the freeze comes again and reset the button.  Maybe we get lucky for a few years I don't know.  As for the Queen goes it loves water and regular fertilizing. On a dry week I water it 3 times a week . 

Yes but I will try for myself with this one. I'm still not convinced that UV index plays so much of a role. Even if you can get some cold blasts, the winter temperature is fairly high where you live. You have more heat, humidity and sunlight throughout the year. But a big thing to consider as well is that at our latitude in the growing season we have more hours of sunlight, which also makes up for a lot of the missing UV rays. Currently we have 15 to 16 hours of sun from sunrise to sunset. As no other palm from low latitudes like Sabals or Washingtonias or even Chamaedorea seem to grow slow here because of missing UV rays I still think that water, sunlight, warmth and nutrients are the most important factors. I also have the 'Santa Catarina' varient which seems to actually be a lot different in needs from the more tropical varieties up north up to Rio de Jeneiro. It grows in higher altitudes with lots of foggy and rainy cool days which might also be beneficial for longer growing period here in early spring and late autumn. Despite the reputation of Queen palms to be fast growers I travelled through Southern California for example, on StreetView and compared growth rate with changeing the date. Like most experiences here on palmtalk, some of them grow pretty slow and some pretty fast. We will see. I think that your warm and humid temperatures throughout the year are making them grow fast. I might be wrong with this but I will try for myself.

[Arecaceus]

On 6/4/2023 at 5:57 PM, Foxpalms said:

I don't have a Santa Catarina but the regular queen's need lots of water and fertilizer in the summer. If it's planted in a suntrap where it gets slightly warmer I think it will grow fine. Hopefully it makes it through the winters.

Yes winter is the only concern I have for now. It's position is good though. Full sun most of the day, in a corner, not too far from the house and surrounded by lava mulch (big bed) which radiates heat because of its black colour. We will see. So far I'm happy it's growing at all because I had to bend it very badly to transport it in my car home, from mypalmshop. I might add some woodchip mulch underneath the rocks it's in to keep temperature and mositure of the soil more steady.

[Harry’s Palms]

I think there are variations in Queen Palms that are quite obvious. I have a few of them here in Southern California that are large and they seem to grow at different rates even though when I bought them 20+ years ago , they came from the same nursery and looked the same in their 10" pots. Now that they are large , they look different . One will have a thick trunk and another will have a more slender trunk . The size is variable as well as the nature of the fronds , some being full and arching , while others being more upright. I don't feed any of them but I water quite a bit in the warmer months and they all get full sun now that they tower over everything else. They are nice "canopy" palms for providing filtered light for more sensitive plants. The only negative I see is the mess from prolific flowering and seeds. I have mine trimmed up tight every 4-6 months.