Spring is not my friend in Chicago...

[ActualTrachycarpus]

I purchased this trachycarpus fortunei from Home Depot in late September for $30. Unfortunately I didn’t have enough time to re-pot (he is a overwinter in garage) He took no damage (I brought him inside for polar vortex) So I decided to put him outside for April? HUGE MISTAKE lol. Yesterday I left him outside even though I heard there would be very light snow, and I was in a rush to attend church. I came back to this;

[ActualTrachycarpus]

So here’s the damage. I am gonna leave him inside my house until summer so he can grow out. I am wondering if I should chop the fronds or wait.

[ActualTrachycarpus]

Thank goodness for the lonesome center spear:

[Allen]

That's a lot of damage for just snow.  trachy take snow rather well.  I'm at a loss.  wind????  Mine in pots have taken snow with no damage.   I leave my trachy pots outside till temps go under 20F.  I would put back outside and clip any dead brown/black tips off fronds.  If it green at all leave it.  Were there any issues before this with it?

Edited April 16, 2019 by Allen

[ActualTrachycarpus]

25 minutes ago, Allen said:

That's a lot of damage for just snow.  trachy take snow rather well.  I'm at a loss.  wind????  Mine in pots have taken snow with no damage.   I leave my trachy pots outside till temps go under 20F.  I would put back outside and clip any dead brown/black tips off fronds.  If it green at all leave it.  Were there any issues before this with it?

Yeah I left it out because I thought it would be hardy... It was growing in a pretty crappy situation at HD and spent the winter in my garage. I honestly have no idea

[Allen]

I have 5 trachycarpus fortunei in pots and left them out almost all winter this year except for 3 weeks when the arctic blasts hit.  Our low this year was a unusually high 16F but I left the pots out almost the entire time.  They actually stayed out to around 18F a couple of times as I was too lazy to bring them in.   You've had a rough winter there.   I'd re pot it gently and check the root health and soil.  

Here's one of my larger ones in snow  but my other ones are much smaller.   There are a lot of Seattle and Canada YouTube snow videos with windmills from this year taking a LOT of snow.  Search Dave Alvaraz on youtube or "seattle windmill palms snow"

Edited April 16, 2019 by Allen

[ActualTrachycarpus]

Will do! Today here is high 70s and we are going to have a stretch of warm weather.

[UK_Palms]

That damage to the fronds is not the result of cold or snow. Trachy's are very hardy and unless thy saw temps below 5F, it should not be looking like that.

That kind of damage is probably the result of the pot freezing solid and the roots freezing, which would kill the roots in the pot and prevent the palm from uptaking water and nutrients. Which then makes the fronds look like crap and die back.

A simple way to prevent this happening again is to plant the palm in the ground. That way the roots won't freeze solid like they would when above ground, in a pot. But then again, in Chicago you will probably have to risk the fronds getting badly damaged by the extreme cold in Jan/Feb, if planted in the ground, since you can't move it indoors. So I would either just opt to plant it in the ground and risk it, or keep it in a pot but make sure you bring it inside when temps drop below freezing.

How cold did it actually get by the way? I have had Trachy's outdoors in pots which endured temps in the 20s F and they were fine, so it is slightly baffling...

[Allen]

1 hour ago, UK_Palms said:

That damage to the fronds is not the result of cold or snow. Trachy's are very hardy and unless thy saw temps below 5F, it should not be looking like that.

That kind of damage is probably the result of the pot freezing solid and the roots freezing, which would kill the roots in the pot and prevent the palm from uptaking water and nutrients. Which then makes the fronds look like crap and die back.

A simple way to prevent this happening again is to plant the palm in the ground. That way the roots won't freeze solid like they would when above ground, in a pot. But then again, in Chicago you will probably have to risk the fronds getting badly damaged by the extreme cold in Jan/Feb, if planted in the ground, since you can't move it indoors. So I would either just opt to plant it in the ground and risk it, or keep it in a pot but make sure you bring it inside when temps drop below freezing.

How cold did it actually get by the way? I have had Trachy's outdoors in pots which endured temps in the 20s F and they were fine, so it is slightly baffling...

I agree something's up.  

[ActualTrachycarpus]

2 hours ago, UK_Palms said:

That damage to the fronds is not the result of cold or snow. Trachy's are very hardy and unless thy saw temps below 5F, it should not be looking like that.

That kind of damage is probably the result of the pot freezing solid and the roots freezing, which would kill the roots in the pot and prevent the palm from uptaking water and nutrients. Which then makes the fronds look like crap and die back.

A simple way to prevent this happening again is to plant the palm in the ground. That way the roots won't freeze solid like they would when above ground, in a pot. But then again, in Chicago you will probably have to risk the fronds getting badly damaged by the extreme cold in Jan/Feb, if planted in the ground, since you can't move it indoors. So I would either just opt to plant it in the ground and risk it, or keep it in a pot but make sure you bring it inside when temps drop below freezing.

How cold did it actually get by the way? I have had Trachy's outdoors in pots which endured temps in the 20s F and they were fine, so it is slightly baffling...

Yeah 20F is the lowest it saw in a garage with no wind or frost, and that was a very brief amount of time. I am still baffled, but I am very hopeful it will come back. I had a 1G trachy this summer almost die because of under-watering (lol stupid mistake on my part) but I brought it in September and put it in a bathroom for the entire season and he just put out another frond, so he looks fine. 

[Allen]

If you're leaving it in a pot try to find a double walled pot (Air between) to put in in to create a air buffer to minimize temperature differences.  Mulch over roots with large hardwood chips or similar.

[NorCalKing]

17 hours ago, UK_Palms said:

That damage to the fronds is not the result of cold or snow. Trachy's are very hardy and unless thy saw temps below 5F, it should not be looking like that.

That kind of damage is probably the result of the pot freezing solid and the roots freezing, which would kill the roots in the pot and prevent the palm from uptaking water and nutrients. Which then makes the fronds look like crap and die back.

A simple way to prevent this happening again is to plant the palm in the ground. That way the roots won't freeze solid like they would when above ground, in a pot. But then again, in Chicago you will probably have to risk the fronds getting badly damaged by the extreme cold in Jan/Feb, if planted in the ground, since you can't move it indoors. So I would either just opt to plant it in the ground and risk it, or keep it in a pot but make sure you bring it inside when temps drop below freezing.

How cold did it actually get by the way? I have had Trachy's outdoors in pots which endured temps in the 20s F and they were fine, so it is slightly baffling...

Perfect analysis, but in Chicago winters the ground freezes solid >12" deep. This tree will NEVER make it in ground there.

[Allen]

27 minutes ago, NorCalKing said:

Perfect analysis, but in Chicago winters the ground freezes solid >12" deep. This tree will NEVER make it in ground there.

With a box protection method it can.  

[hbernstein]

Trust me, when it's -20F in Chicago, you'd need quite the awesome ground heat to keep a palm alive. It's one thing to have freezing temps for a few days. It's another to have severely subzero temps for several days in a row, then warming up to single digits. I don't think that even Rhapidophyllum would survive unless completely tented or planted right up against a very warm building.  

[Allen]

3 hours ago, hbernstein said:

Trust me, when it's -20F in Chicago, you'd need quite the awesome ground heat to keep a palm alive. It's one thing to have freezing temps for a few days. It's another to have severely subzero temps for several days in a row, then warming up to single digits. I don't think that even Rhapidophyllum would survive unless completely tented or planted right up against a very warm building.  

You wrap the palm fronds up.  You make a box out of the solid insulation foam board around it, then inside use a thermocube and christmas lights inside.  Mulch around base of box.  Lots of people do it successfully.   This can be done for palms up to 8-10' .  You can bury a heat cable around the palm if you need to but usually not needed.  palm roots go out only 18" in general.  But you're in Miami so I don't guess you know this or need to lol.  For a similar method in Pittsburgh look up John Harding on Youtube but he doesn't use the foam board.

Edited April 17, 2019 by Allen

[Ben in Norcal]

There is no good reason to put this in the ground in Chicago (where I am from.)  You'll just speed up it's growth and it's a sure goner sooner or later.  Sure, box protection might work for a couple of years, but I've never understood that personally.  It's an insane amount of work and it'll look just as good in a pot/last a hell of a lot longer.

If it comes back, just bring it in when it's going to drop below 30 to be safe.  Pot it up down the line, and enjoy it for many, many more years than you would otherwise.

[ActualTrachycarpus]

Lol thanks for all the replies everyone. Growing palms in the ground in Chicago is like trying to dunk a basketball when you’re 5’7. You can do it, but it takes a lot of work. My home depot hands away their palms before the first frost, so if I really wanted to palm in the ground I would put a free trachy in the ground.

[Ben in Norcal]

1 minute ago, ActualTrachycarpus said:

Lol thanks for all the replies everyone. Growing palms in the ground in Chicago is like trying to dunk a basketball when you’re 5’7. You can do it, but it takes a lot of work. My home depot hands away their palms before the first frost, so if I really wanted to palm in the ground I would put a free trachy in the ground.

That's one method of composting. 

Good luck man - love seeing people growing palms in Chiberia.  In pots.  Ha!

[ActualTrachycarpus]

3 minutes ago, Ben in Norcal said:

That's one method of composting. 

Good luck man - love seeing people growing palms in Chiberia.  In pots.  Ha!

I am going to need it.  A few days ago I picked up a 6 1/2 foot Adonidia... Might have to pay for greenhouse space for it.

[Ben in Norcal]

1 minute ago, ActualTrachycarpus said:

I am going to need it.  A few days ago I picked up a 6 1/2 foot Adonidia... Might have to pay for greenhouse space for it.

The house needs an addition!

[Allen]

Look up expressiontropicale on youtube he maintains a lot of palms in Motreal Canada which is also 5b/6a like you.  This gives you a idea of what size palms can be protected and the process.  His videos show alot of protection methods.  A Trachy can be planted in your area if protected.   It would be best to plant a healthy large as possible palm.  It takes about 1-2 hours to install protection.  I completely disagree with folks saying it's not possible or takes too much work.  Many people zone push everywhere.  Many people in FL protect their palms because they zone push too.  

[NorCalKing]

12 hours ago, Allen said:

With a box protection method it can.  

We all love to zone push. Hell I could grow a coconut palm in the arctic with enough protection. But at what point does it just become silly?

Here's a little reminder about winters in Chicago. A little bit of mulch and Xmas lights and a box is not saving any Trachy from -23°F. But hey, whatever floats your boat.

Life-threatening weather with extreme windchill and subzero temperatures had the weather service on high alert for record-breaking, historic numbers at the end of January.

On Thursday night, Chicago had a subzero temperatures for 52 straight hours. The frigid marathon beat out the last subzero streak in 2014 by 14 hours—the National Weather Service Chicago estimates 2019 is the fourth longest streak ever.

No all-time records were broken for Chicago but the low temperature of minus 23 was close to clipping the record of minus 27 degrees on January 20, 1985. However, daily records for the city were shattered, according to the National Weather Service Chicago. 

On Wednesday, the record for lowest maximum temperature was broken with minus 10, previously it was 3 degrees in 2004. The day’s record for lowest minimum temperature was also broken at 23 degrees below zero, before it had been minus 15 in 1966.

Thursday’s weather also set a new record for the lowest minimum temperature with minus 21 degrees. Previous records were minus 12 in 1899 and 1985.

[hbernstein]

I do have some personal experience about dealing with tropical plants in Chicago. I was Curator of Collections for the Chicago Park District. The collections were the tropical and subtropical plants grown in and (seasonally) around the Garfield Park and Lincoln Park conservatories.

I'm sure that it is possible to keep palms alive, if not thriving, planted in the ground there. I just think that it would be a very frustrating, labor and energy intensive effort that would yield little satisfaction.

Weak plants that are grown under extremely challenging conditions (e.g., being wrapped in insulation and wire for months) don't have much appeal to me because the plants will never look anything like they should. But I do understand the thrill of trying. I think that that Winter/Spring inside and Summer/Fall outside offer the best possibility of growing healthy, attractive plants.

[cm05]

Home Depot really sells Trachycarpus fortunei in Chicago? I’ve never seen that here in New York, and it’s just barely warm enough here for them to survive (not thrive) with perfect siting. Lowe’s had them in 2017, but they were smaller and way more expensive.

Never seen Sabal minor or Rhapidophyllum hystrix at any of the big box stores though, and those should be nearly bullet proof here. 

As far as growing them in the ground, if they can do it in Montréal you can do it in Chicago, their winters are far more harsh, your climate is all-around superior to theirs. Mulch and snow cover are great insulators.

[Ben in Norcal]

12 hours ago, Allen said:

Look up expressiontropicale on youtube he maintains a lot of palms in Motreal Canada which is also 5b/6a like you.  This gives you a idea of what size palms can be protected and the process.  His videos show alot of protection methods.  A Trachy can be planted in your area if protected.   It would be best to plant a healthy large as possible palm.  It takes about 1-2 hours to install protection.  I completely disagree with folks saying it's not possible or takes too much work.  Many people zone push everywhere.  Many people in FL protect their palms because they zone push too.  

Whatever floats your boat, and kudos to all that try, but this is not zone-pushing.  Planting in ground in Chiberia is zone-ignoring. 

It's one thing to give a marginal palm a helping hand (which I used to do here) and another to try and keep something alive several zones outside of their limits.

That said, some really impressive work is done by folks here, which I thoroughly admire!  I just can't be arsed to protect anything anymore; I've concentrated on building microclimates through heavy planting - and from there the chips fall where they may!  I think regular T. fortunei look better before they trunk, anyway, so pot culture would make for a nice plant long-term.  Some of the other Trachy's are much more appealing - shame that it is the least attractive plant in the genus that is widely available.

[ActualTrachycarpus]

On 4/18/2019 at 10:35 AM, Ben in Norcal said:

Whatever floats your boat, and kudos to all that try, but this is not zone-pushing.  Planting in ground in Chiberia is zone-ignoring. 

It's one thing to give a marginal palm a helping hand (which I used to do here) and another to try and keep something alive several zones outside of their limits.

That said, some really impressive work is done by folks here, which I thoroughly admire!  I just can't be arsed to protect anything anymore; I've concentrated on building microclimates through heavy planting - and from there the chips fall where they may!  I think regular T. fortunei look better before they trunk, anyway, so pot culture would make for a nice plant long-term.  Some of the other Trachy's are much more appealing - shame that it is the least attractive plant in the genus that is widely available.

Yeah Waggies are considerably nicer looking Trachys in my book. Basically most of the palms I have were bought locally, because mail order can sometimes be wacky. The closest tropical thing in Chiberia we can grow are bananas lol...

[mdsonofthesouth]

Chicago is quite a stretch and I applaud those whom push that far, but my patience is wearing thin just pushing 1/2 to 1 zone.  Hoping my better placement and microclimate this time around will fair better. I have already nixed several ideas of pushing palms due to the last 4 years of freak winters and experience zone pushing plants and starting to err on the side similar to @Ben in Norcal stated above. I have limited my selection to trachycarpus, waggie, 1 chamaerops humilis, 1 cerifera, rhapidophyllum, 1 palmetto (in the most protected spot) and sabal minor. Gone are livistona chinenesis perennials, chamaerodea radicalis (most likely), anything butia, trachycarpus nova, takil(due to being too expensive to risk),  and others. 

 

Going to pump my yuccas up as they are bulletproof here and trunking yuccas, if done right, are just as exotic here since barely anyone outside of the beach plants them. The only mass plantings of palms I will be done(funds willing) are rhapidophyllum and sabal minor as I over wintered a needle in my worst spot and it wasn't even remotely phased by our abnormal winter or the polar vortex that grazed us pretty good.

 

Mind you this is with 360 to 364 days of palm growing weather and 1 to 5 days of rhapidophyllum/magnolia/yucca gloriosa weather. 1 quick event that caught me in a rough time in my life took my green and flourishing palm garden to brown dead and withered in the matter of hours....

Edited April 20, 2019 by mdsonofthesouth

[cm05]

1 hour ago, mdsonofthesouth said:

Chicago is quite a stretch and I applaud those whom push that far, but my patience is wearing thin just pushing 1/2 to 1 zone.  Hoping my better placement and microclimate this time around will fair better. I have already nixed several ideas of pushing palms due to the last 4 years of freak winters and experience zone pushing plants and starting to err on the side similar to @Ben in Norcal stated above. I have limited my selection to trachycarpus, waggie, 1 chamaerops humilis, 1 cerifera, rhapidophyllum, 1 palmetto (in the most protected spot) and sabal minor. Gone are livistona chinenesis perennials, chamaerodea radicalis (most likely), anything butia, trachycarpus nova, takil(due to being too expensive to risk),  and others. 

 

Going to pump my yuccas up as they are bulletproof here and trunking yuccas, if done right, are just as exotic here since barely anyone outside of the beach plants them. The only mass plantings of palms I will be done(funds willing) are rhapidophyllum and sabal minor as I over wintered a needle in my worst spot and it wasn't even remotely phased by our abnormal winter or the polar vortex that grazed us pretty good.

 

Mind you this is with 360 to 364 days of palm growing weather and 1 to 5 days of rhapidophyllum/magnolia/yucca gloriosa weather. 1 quick event that caught me in a rough time in my life took my green and flourishing palm garden to brown dead and withered in the matter of hours....

I think I’m with you on that, though I haven’t had any real experience with palms in the ground, I’ve already come to the conclusion that I’m uninterested in protecting anything more cold sensitive than a Trachycarpus fortunei/wagnerianus, and I’m perfectly content with growing just Needles and Minors if it came down to just those two. I’m not against providing temporary protection, primarily against damaging snowfall (my Needle got shredded in a blizzard), but I couldn’t cover them up all winter, I’d like to actually see them.

The only exception would be my Trachycarpus takil, I know they're supposed to be as hardy as fortunei, but I won’t be putting mine to the test.

[mdsonofthesouth]

Yeah we get blizzards aka 8+ inches of snow every 6 to 10 years which is a worry for me. But most years the total for the entire winter is between 1 and 12in. Mostly melts the next (sometimes same day) and rarely sticks around, but the last few winters are proving this might no longer be the norm for us. God help us when we enter the solar minimum soon....

[UK_Palms]

20 hours ago, mdsonofthesouth said:

Yeah we get blizzards aka 8+ inches of snow every 6 to 10 years which is a worry for me. But most years the total for the entire winter is between 1 and 12in. Mostly melts the next (sometimes same day) and rarely sticks around, but the last few winters are proving this might no longer be the norm for us. God help us when we enter the solar minimum soon....

You talk about us approaching the solar minimum, but last winter was probably my mildest on record. I didn't have any snow and my lowest was about 22F for about an hour on the coldest of nights. London didn't drop below 27F last winter. So I don't really buy the whole 'solar minimum' affecting temperatures. Although I don't completely disbelieve it.

Could the extreme lows and heavy snowfall events you are experiencing in recent years be more to do with a change in the jet stream patterns and prevailing winds allowing cold fronts to seep in? There's got to be other factors at play, surely? The jet stream especially...

[mdsonofthesouth]

Because we are still in a solar maximum hence why things are still semi mild. It's a 11year cycle.

 

https://science.nasa.gov/science-news/news-articles/solar-minimum-is-coming

 

https://www-almanac-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.almanac.com/news/astronomy/astronomy/solar-minimum-approaching-mini-ice-age?amp_js_v=a2&amp_gsa=1&amp&usqp=mq331AQCCAE%3D#aoh=15558922369513&amp_ct=1555892280058&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&amp_tf=From %1%24s&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.almanac.com%2Fnews%2Fastronomy%2Fastronomy%2Fsolar-minimum-approaching-mini-ice-age

Edited April 22, 2019 by mdsonofthesouth

[ActualTrachycarpus]

On 4/21/2019 at 6:42 PM, UK_Palms said:

You talk about us approaching the solar minimum, but last winter was probably my mildest on record. I didn't have any snow and my lowest was about 22F for about an hour on the coldest of nights. London didn't drop below 27F last winter. So I don't really buy the whole 'solar minimum' affecting temperatures. Although I don't completely disbelieve it.

Could the extreme lows and heavy snowfall events you are experiencing in recent years be more to do with a change in the jet stream patterns and prevailing winds allowing cold fronts to seep in? There's got to be other factors at play, surely? The jet stream especially...

The thing was in December, for where I lived it only dropped below 20F twice, and barely at that. And then January came around it was one of the coldest months I've ever experienced, The strange thing about April here is that Sunday we got 4 inches of snow and exactly a week later on Easter Sunday we received 80F and sunny. While that is not farfetch'd it certainly is a little weird. For the most part, the highs in April have been higher than all of the averages.