Rapid Phoenix Sylvestris death in Sanford, FL. TPPD or something else?

[Merlyn]

Since I should have posted these Phoenix Dactylifera in this thread anyway, here are the photos of the 9 potentially diseased palms at 860 North Orange Blvd. in downtown Orlando:

https://www.google.com/maps/@28.5556849,-81.3791987,3a,75y,267.13h,107.28t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sBbpqKYAuPeeeNVsD3tm8Lw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

As Meg said in that thread, it's possible that something else is killing these, something like Fusarium, Thielaviopsis, or something else.  I looked at the original photos again, and it doesn't look like the fronds are dying in a typical Fusarium 1-sided pattern.  Here's the overtrimmed palm from inside the courtyard:

And here's the two along the road, flanking the courtyard, with contrast/brightness/saturation adjusted to see the palms better:

[Merlyn]

It occurred to me that the the sudden frond collapse on the above Dactylifera could be due to natural causes.  On a bike ride Saturday I saw another pair that have been in place for 15+ years, and they showed the same kind of collapse of all the fronds immediately below the flowers.  The fronds were still all green, with just a bit of normal-looking browning.  On Friday I drove past a pair of Sylvestris that also showed the same kind of collapse. 

I searched a bit online and found other photos of otherwise healthy Phoenix palms doing the same thing, here's a Dacty:

And a Sylvestris:

And a CIDP:

So maybe there's a Phoenix characteristic on these big palms, where the weight of the seed pods or the energy used to create them means the palm quickly sacrifices the lower fronds?  Date growers seem to always cut off the fronds below the seed pods, for obvious collection reasons.  Maybe the downtown Orlando Dactylifera are just acting normally and they are being overtrimmed to remove the date pods before they fall and become a hazard?

[Merlyn]

Here's an update on the Sylvestris on International Parkway near the end of 417.  On 8/23/19 it had about 25 decent looking fronds, with the lower 8 or so looking a bit lime green.  On 10/26 it had about 14 alive fronds, and on 11/5 it's rapidly losing the lower half.  I couldn't find any signs of trunk damage, rot or conks.  The only other thing I can think of that could be causing it to die (other than LB) is that it's in a narrow median and planted fairly high.  It has at least a foot of aerial roots, so it's possible that it's dying due to poor planting and watering.  Here's two photos from the past couple of weeks:

[PalmatierMeg]

It's dying fast, should be gone by year end.

[Merlyn]

24 minutes ago, PalmatierMeg said:

It's dying fast, should be gone by year end.

I think you are right, even the more vertical fronds are showing some lime green color.  I haven't seen a spear on this palm for at least 4 months.  I'm betting that they will cut it down before the end of the year, with it looking so ratty now.  The 4 or 5 big Bismarcks right behind it all still look fine, hopefully they won't be affected by the Sylvester dying!

[TexasColdHardyPalms]

As far as the dead butia i have found that they will get fungal infections and die after brutal winters.  It takes a little while but wet cold and 9-14f is butia kryptonite.  I saw an entire grove of 250 butia die two winters that experienced 12-15f followed by a wet spring.

[Merlyn]

On 11/12/2019 at 8:01 PM, TexasColdHardyPalms said:

As far as the dead butia i have found that they will get fungal infections and die after brutal winters.  It takes a little while but wet cold and 9-14f is butia kryptonite.  I saw an entire grove of 250 butia die two winters that experienced 12-15f followed by a wet spring.

That's very possibly what happened to it.  That winter was our once-a-decade cold snap, down to 25F for about 1 hour in the middle of January.  I don't think it rained that night, but that Butia had a sudden middle-of-canopy collapse shortly after the cold night.  The newer fronds all looked okay and the oldest hanging ones were ok too, but the middle ones suddenly collapsed down onto the old ones.  It never recovered.  The new homeowners have left the trunk laying there on the ground for the past 2 years...

The Sylvestris on International Parkway is now officially dead.  Just before Thanksgiving the only 4 or 5 remaining green fronds fell over, and I snapped this photo yesterday.

[NOT A TA]

6 hours ago, Merlyn2220 said:

The Sylvestris on International Parkway is now officially dead. 

That one went quick! Have you been by the Mercedes dealer lately?

[NOT A TA]

On 4/16/2019 at 10:05 AM, aztropic said:

More dying phoenix in Phoenix,Arizona.

Curious if you've noticed any new cases this year and if there's been any mention of certain disease responsible?

[aztropic]

Yes.I've seen a few more date palms collapse. Not as bad a problem as all the allepo pine trees randomly dropping dead around here though.Now that's currently a very huge,noticeable,problem. Haven't heard anything on causes though.

 

aztropic

Mesa,Arizona

[Silas_Sancona]

13 minutes ago, aztropic said:

Yes.I've seen a few more date palms collapse. Not as bad a problem as all the allepo pine trees randomly dropping dead around here though.Now that's currently a very huge,noticeable,problem. Haven't heard anything on causes though.

 

aztropic

Mesa,Arizona

Funny you mention this.. Been seeing the same thing around Chandler.  Infact, there's a huge one in the neighborhood that has been slowly dying back since i moved here. Seems that the die back starts late in the spring when the tree would be producing new growth.  By mid summer it is very noticeable, not so much now.  Lots of dead wood that hasn't been removed though.  Imagine taking it down will be a big job, much like what it took to take down another Allepo 2 doors down this past summer.

[NOT A TA]

Sounds like Aleppo pine blight or pine bark beetles.

[NOT A TA]

10 hours ago, aztropic said:

Yes.I've seen a few more date palms collapse.

Is there any grass near them? In your previous pics there wasn't any grass and without it the leaf hopper life cycle doesn't continue.

[Merlyn]

20 hours ago, NOT A TA said:

That one went quick! Have you been by the Mercedes dealer lately?

I drove past the Mercedes dealer this afternoon, the remaining 4 Sylvestris look pretty sad.  Three of four have the fronds "shrinking," almost like they are drying out despite plenty of recent rain.  None have had a spear leaf for 2-3 months.  The fourth doesn't look horrible, but I couldn't spot a spear.  As far as I can tell, only these palms are affected, and nearby Roebellini are not affected.

 

[Silas_Sancona]

8 hours ago, NOT A TA said:

Sounds like Aleppo pine blight or pine bark beetles.

Very reasonable assumption.. Was thinking bark beetles might be the culprit. Had heard some talk about the regions' long term drought conditions/ milder winters of late encouraging these beetles to move out of the mountains, and into more of the valley.. Blight would make sense also as the beetles spread the pathogen tree to tree..

[aztropic]

9 hours ago, NOT A TA said:

Is there any grass near them? In your previous pics there wasn't any grass and without it the leaf hopper life cycle doesn't continue.

No grass.Mostly crushed granite used as ground cover out here in the desert.

 

aztropic

Mesa,Arizona

[NOT A TA]

1 hour ago, aztropic said:

No grass.Mostly crushed granite used as ground cover out here in the desert.

 

aztropic

Mesa,Arizona

Are the tops of the dead palms folding over in the upper 1/3 of the trunk?

[NOT A TA]

2 hours ago, Merlyn2220 said:

I drove past the Mercedes dealer this afternoon, the remaining 4 Sylvestris look pretty sad. 

Ya they do.  Notice any other large Phoenix in the nearby area suffering? Seems kinda weird the roebelenii aren't being affected.

[aztropic]

1 hour ago, NOT A TA said:

Are the tops of the dead palms folding over in the upper 1/3 of the trunk?

Yes on ones left long enough to fold over.Trees are dying from 40 years in the ground to newer ones planted just a few years ago.

 

aztropic

Mesa,Arizona

[NOT A TA]

47 minutes ago, aztropic said:

Yes on ones left long enough to fold over.Trees are dying from 40 years in the ground to newer ones planted just a few years ago.

 

aztropic

Mesa,Arizona

If you see one with the crown starting to show signs could you get a pic? Curious what might be the cause and although I'm colorblind certain diseases or insect infestations create a pattern of necrosis. IF lethal bronzing is only transmitted by leaf hoppers then that's probably not what's killing palms in your area. They like moist deep mulched grass which isn't available. However if there's another insect vector then there's a possibility. From the size and appearance of the palms in your first pic trimmers tools probably aren't a transport consideration of whatever is causing their demise.

[Merlyn]

On 12/6/2019 at 9:45 PM, NOT A TA said:

Ya they do.  Notice any other large Phoenix in the nearby area suffering? Seems kinda weird the roebelenii aren't being affected.

It's strange that these are the only few in the area that "appear" to be suffering from TPPD/LB.  Headquarter Hyundai just planted about 30 mature Phoenix Dactylifera near the intersection of 46A and Rinehart, about 1/4 mile down the road from the Mercedes dealer.  I drove around the area and didn't see any other suffering palms of any type.  Sabals, Livistona and Roebellini at the Mercedes dealer and the one next door all look 100% fine.  The closest sick palms I could find are a row of palms about a mile NE on Rinehart.  They seem to be suffering from "power line decline" and not necessarily a disease.

https://www.google.com/maps/@28.8026503,-81.3310135,3a,75y,86.18h,98.07t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s7LBhRsRObketdT6h0Zxj1g!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

[kinzyjr]

CFPACS has been planning on having someone come in at one of our meetings, hopefully the summer one at Leu, and give a talk/update about the status of research on Lethal Bronzing/TPPD.

[NOT A TA]

Is there any actual research being conducted? Maybe Eric @ Leu could contact Monica Elliot down in Ft. Lauderdale and ask if there's actually anything being conducted or if current information is merely observational when high profile cases are reported.  Funding is probably a determining factor.

[NOT A TA]

A year ago this one looked fine but I noticed a couple days ago it's a goner. Dunno what happened, might have been lightening. I will keep a close eye on the others and see if they start to show any signs. I'm colorblind though so hard to see early signs before serious wilting.

This syagrus  romanzoffiana had been there for many years and also died off within the past year across the road from the one above. Carefully examined the base for Ganoderma conk and did not find one even though conditions at the base favor conk formation based on my previous observations so I expect one to eventually form on the stump after the palm is removed. It's got irrigation, shade, and reduced ventilation which seem to promote conk formation. Perhaps fusarium got both of them.

[kinzyjr]

58 minutes ago, NOT A TA said:

Is there any actual research being conducted? Maybe Eric @ Leu could contact Monica Elliot down in Ft. Lauderdale and ask if there's actually anything being conducted or if current information is merely observational when high profile cases are reported.  Funding is probably a determining factor.

Given the recent updates and the number of newspaper articles stating such, I would say there is a lot going on behind the scenes.  As you mentioned, funding is always an issue.  In this case, the loss of these palms certainly impacts tourism in the state and that means there is an economic impact significant enough to justify funding.  Just a few examples that I may have previously shared:

This article states research is being done to find an antibiotic: https://www.staugustine.com/news/20190819/lethal-bronzing-deadly-palm-tree-disease-on-rise-in-st-johns-county

This article states research is being done to determine if large amounts of antibiotics in the disease's early stages can stop an infection:

https://www.mysuncoast.com/2019/08/20/disease-called-lethal-bronzing-is-killing-florida-palm-trees/

There are a few comments on this blog, one from Dr. John Rossi.  The comments point to the paper from IFAS below as the most up-to-date source of info:

http://blogs.ifas.ufl.edu/palmbeachco/2018/01/20/lethal-bronzing-destructive-new-palm-disease/

This paper was updated in 2019 and is listed as the most up-to-date source of info from IFAS: https://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/pp163

This paper cites a case of issues with Bismarckia in 2018: https://www.fdacs.gov/content/download/39924/file/Pest_Alert_-_Texas_Phoenix_Palm_Decline.pdf

Now this will be interesting if it works:

https://www.nova.edu/academic-affairs/faculty-research-grant/winners1920/an-electronic-nose-to-monitor-the-health-of-palms-with-lethal-bronzing-disease.html

Apparently there is an annual summit on this disease if someone is so inclined to attend: https://www.eventbrite.com/e/3rd-annual-lethal-bronzing-disease-lbd-summit-tickets-68776730051

No doubt we're all frustrated by seeing rows of palms just drying up in a few months time.  I miss all of the date palms here.

[NOT A TA]

The 3rd annual LBD summit was held this past September so probably have to wait till the 2020 one is announced. 

Most of the articles just rehash the same info other than adding areas where new cases have been confirmed. I haven't seen any confirmation on the one case suspected in a Bismarkia.

Current testing is $75.00 per sample and OTC injections as a preventive are about $50.00 per palm 4 times a year which adds up quickly so although cheaper than removal it's easier for public and private maintenance departments to get funding for removal of dead plants than funding for preventive measures of healthy ones. It's likely only certain high profile specimens in certain locations will get preventive injections.

The E-nose concept for testing seems good in theory however it just gives us a little earlier notice that a palm is infected and will likely die. I haven't seen any confirmation that OTC injections will "cure" an infected palm. So that leaves us right where we would be anyway, remove dead/dying palms. Many people don't realize it but there's an E-nose up above the headliner in many of the newest cars sniffing all the time and feeding that information into the computers in your cars. Those in car sniffers are supposedly for "quality control" to detect formaldehyde and plastic smells for automakers but think about it for a minute and consider the cost of implementing it in every car not just test models. Then consider the possibilities. Lets say the sniffer smells cigarette smoke, or weed, or alcohol, or fast food or other substances. You might start receiving advertising or other marketing targeted as soon as you plug the phone in. They already know where you grocery shop, work, school, etc based on GPS info.  Orwellian.................

I think Dr. Brian Badher would probably be one of the most knowledgeable people you could have speak at the meeting.

Seems to me it might be easier to control the disease in high profile areas with an insecticide used on the lawn areas that would reduce the population of the plant hoppers that might transmit the disease. There's a perfect breeding ground created in the over manicured lawn areas which increases the insect population over what would typically be in the same area if it was in a natural state. So kill off a lot of the insects and the frequency of disease cases would be reduced over a period of time. If we want to reduce the possibility of infections in our own yards we could remove the grass and mulch, gravel etc. or just don't try to promote the perfect looking lawn by watering less and what not.

While it's frustrating to see lots of palms die off nature will eventually balance things out.

[Merlyn]

The Ballantrae sylvester was cut down and removed around January 10th, 2020.  I checked out the freshly cut trunk and didn't see any sign of Ganoderma or any odd discoloration that would indicate something like Fusarium.  In looking into Fusarium deaths of Queens (since I just took one out) I found that Fusarium sometimes causes fast wilt and death on Phoenix species, but without the stereotypical "one sided death" of Fusarium in queens.  So some of the LB-accused deaths might be due to Fusarium.

This palm is in my neighborhood, here are photos taken 2/10 (left side in the AM sun) and 2/20 (right side near dusk).  They never have the older fronds cut off, so the lower hanging fronds were green in the fall and died in one of the cold fronts.  I recall this palm doing something similar last spring.  It suddenly put out a "mega-spear" of 8 or so fronds at once, followed up by another big spear of 4-6 fronds.  So this one is really disturbing but might not have anything wrong with it other than "under-trimming."  I'll have an easier time keeping an eye on this one...unfortunately!

[NOT A TA]

I'm sad to report I believe I've seen the first cases of Lethal Bronzing show up on coconuts in my neighborhood. If I'm right, it may be devastating to the aesthetic quality of the area because of the very high proportion of palms in the residential landscape.

I was in the hospital for several days (once again modern medicine kept me alive thankfully!) and when I got home a neighbor came over immediately and asked me to look at his Coconut palms because a large number of them had suddenly started looking very bad all the lower fronds all wilted within days while I was in the hospital. Doesn't look like other diseases I have experience with and the only unusual environmental factors are that we've had what seems to be more rain than usual during winter and he had a company spray his lawn for weeds. Our lowest temp this winter was 46-47 F and all of the palms in question survived the two colder events around 2010 without nearly the damage shown below. Two of the cocos that appear infected are in a large  vegetable garden area where there's no lawn for at least 30' so I doubt the lawn weed killer is responsible, it wasn't even strong enough to kill the weeds in the lawn anyway.

The most disturbing thing to me in diagnosis is that it appears that the disease was spread by pruning tools. This goes against information in extension service bulletins suggesting that the disease can only be spread by insect vector plant hoppers, Myndus crudus Van Duzee in particular.    This particular neighbor consistently trims his palms too often, never letting the lower fronds brown out completely before cutting. I've warned him repeatedly but it always fell on deaf ears. He is retired but still does landscape maintenance for people in very high end HOA where he worked his regular job in landscape maintenance. So he may have brought the disease home and spread it around his yard. Also since he's gotten older he sells all the coconuts on the trees he can't easily reach with his pole saw. The man he sells them to goes from home to home every day cutting down coconuts and trimming the lower partially dead fronds as needed. When cutting coconuts for sale to consumers they are cut down long before maturity (months) and so the infrutescense stalk is still green and very live. The coconut procurement specialist may have also brought the disease to the property OR just help spread it to the tall ones. Neither of them ever clean their tools.

I've documented with many pics from my first visit one week ago but I'll just post a couple pics from Monday morning that tell the main story. I literally just pulled these fronds and Infructescence off the palm with my bare hands and very little effort. I just pulled the tips of fronds I could reach. The nuts fell when fronds were pulled. Typically it takes two men and a boy if there's only a few strands left holding a brown frond still. The abscission layer is not normal looking where the frond would separate from the trunk.

 

[Merlyn]

Definitely let us know an update on the progress of these palms.  It looks like the coconuts on the far side of the hedge have some browning fronds too, maybe they all got infected at the same time?  I haven't read about fronds bronzing and then falling off easily, or being pulled off really easily.  But I haven't read of that *not* being a symptom, so it may go along with the "early fruit drop" symptom.

I stopped by the Mercedes dealer and all 4 of the remaining Phoenix Sylvestris are gone.  I'll have to go back in the daylight and snap photos of the stumps.  The stump of the Ballantrae Sylvestris looked normal, with no signs of partial trunk discoloration that you'd expect in Fusarium or other fungal infections.

[NOT A TA]

34 minutes ago, Merlyn2220 said:

It looks like the coconuts on the far side of the hedge have some browning fronds too

^^^ You are correct. All the coconut trees in the yard have fronds with leaflets cupping/kinking/discoloring and then the frond drying up & dropping prematurely. Some drop before even drying up.  In the pics above I took the top pic one day and the bottom pic the following morning after I'd pulled the fronds & nuts off the palm in the foreground. Note in the bottom pic there's three fronds on the ground under another coconut palm in the background, they fell on their own overnight. Since then fronds have been falling off his trees daily. I walked around the neighborhood a bit today and saw other palms that don't look good. While we're having cool weather now for a few days and the sun's still on a low angle I'll bet once the heat comes back into the 80's next week there's going to be a lot of fronds dropping quickly because they'll dry out faster.

I think I'm going to start a thread with Lethal Bronzing in the title where we can all include diagnosis info, examples, answer questions, share news, etc.  That way anyone searching can find everything in one thread instead of various threads like this one with titles that don't come up quickly in a search. Some of the symptoms are different for different species of palms, so having picture examples for different species would help people diagnose correctly.  Thinking about it as I write this post I'm surprised there isn't more threads about disease info on this forum. There should really be a thread on each of the common palm diseases to educate people and help them correctly determine what's wrong with their plant.

I have a feeling that because of the news attention that Lethal Bronzing has been getting as it's become more widespread that people who have palms sickened by other diseases like the fusariums,  Thielaviopsis trunk rot, Ganoderma, Pink rot, or whatever will automatically think it's Lethal Bronzing just because that's what they've heard of. I'm thinking more of new members who find the forum searching for info on their sick plant not the palm experts & collectors already here who follow threads like this quietly learning.

 

[Merlyn]

10 hours ago, NOT A TA said:

I think I'm going to start a thread with Lethal Bronzing in the title where we can all include diagnosis info, examples, answer questions, share news, etc.  That way anyone searching can find everything in one thread instead of various threads like this one with titles that don't come up quickly in a search.

That's a good idea, especially because the title of this one was the "old name" TPPD!