PALMS IN ALMERIA

[CarlosRubi]

I'm trying to study the species of Phoenix genus in the province of Almeria, in Spain, but it is a difficult task. I thought you can help me. I have a few specimens, growing in a desert near the capital. I don't know, because they look like P. dactylifera, but with green leaves. I think it can be a hybrid between dactylifera and canariensis or somenthing P. iberica.

[CarlosRubi]

The fruits are lesser than dactylifera but bigger than canariensis.

Edited March 8, 2019 by CarlosRubi

[pietropuccio]

almost certainly a hybrid between dactylifera and canariensis. Phoenix iberica D.Rivera, S.Ríos & Obón is a synonym of Phoenix dactylifera.

[CarlosRubi]

Thanks

 

[CarlosRubi]

Those are the seeds, I think it can help.

[CarlosRubi]

And those ones? Canariensis x sylvestris? 

[Alicante]

The north part of the city is pure desertic, Phoenixes grow there like bushes, they're naturalized all over a very big area within the province of Almeria. I wouldn't be too surprised if there are hybrids there, naturally made.

It's very strange to find P.Iberica , they are few and all wild specimens are located in isolated places of SE Spain. According to the last seed pic, That's definelty Phoenix Ibérica seeds. Astonishing!

https://www.laverdad.es/nuestra-tierra/naturaleza/201601/26/la-ciencia-descubre-la-palmera-iberica.html

A couple of years ago, they found the first wild Phoenix Iberica in the province of Alicante. It was just known in Almería and Murcia.

https://www.diarioinformacion.com/elche/2016/09/21/encuentran-primera-palmera-nativa-iberica/1808203.html

[CarlosRubi]

Well, so in Almeria I already found between the planted ones and the wild species, Phoenix dactylifera, Phoenix sylvestris, Phoenix dactylifera x sylvestris, Phoenix canariensis, Phoenix iberica x dactylifera and possibly Phoenix canariensis x sylvestris. Thanks for your help.

[Alicante]

On 3/9/2019 at 11:45 AM, CarlosRubi said:

Well, so in Almeria I already found between the planted ones and the wild species, Phoenix dactylifera, Phoenix sylvestris, Phoenix dactylifera x sylvestris, Phoenix canariensis, Phoenix iberica x dactylifera and possibly Phoenix canariensis x sylvestris. Thanks for your help.

Any additional pics about the hybrid species you found there? It would be great, that area has a very interesting climate, alternating so many factors.  

My dream is to make a big nursery in Almeria one day, since that climate offers a lot of opportunities and lots of tropical species thrive, but people there are not too interested in this. I am sure with the proper orographic conditions (without artificial help) but taking advantage of the best locations and natural heat enclaves, I think a coconut could be grown there!

Seeds of the strange Phoenix Iberica found by a professor from the University of Murcia. This species are just marginally found in small areas of SE Spain:

Edited July 6, 2019 by Alicante

[wimmie]

Adam and Carlos, do you know what species or variety the attached palm is? It's petioles are of a golden/yellow colour throughout the entire leave!

[palmsOrl]

I had read that Chamaerops humilis is the only palm species found in mainland Europe, but this thread indicates there are two, the other being Phoenix iberica.

[UK_Palms]

7 minutes ago, palmsOrl said:

I had read that Chamaerops humilis is the only palm species found in mainland Europe, but this thread indicates there are two, the other being Phoenix iberica.

Don't forget Phoenix Theophrasti. 

There's about 10 old specimens on the Greek mainland, which used to be part of a larger ancient palm forest.

[PalmTreeDude]

Southern Coastal Europe definitely has a climate palms can thrive in! I was just in Italy and there were many many palms, but mostly Phoenix and Washingtonia species, along with some planted and wild Chamaerops humilis. Here is a picture from Italy I took. I wouldn't be surprised to hear that there are more palms native to Southern Europe than previously thought. It would make sense for a species of Phoenix to be native to Spain, doesn't their range cover the entire Northern Mediterranean coast of Africa? If so, Southern Spain is not far away. 

Edited July 7, 2019 by PalmTreeDude

[ActualTrachycarpus]

On 7/7/2019 at 12:08 PM, PalmTreeDude said:

Southern Coastal Europe definitely has a climate palms can thrive in! I was just in Italy and there were many many palms, but mostly Phoenix and Washingtonia species, along with some planted and wild Chamaerops humilis. Here is a picture from Italy I took. I wouldn't be surprised to hear that there are more palms native to Southern Europe than previously thought. It would make sense for a species of Phoenix to be native to Spain, doesn't their range cover the entire Northern Mediterranean coast of Africa? If so, Southern Spain is not far away. 

I'm traveling to Barcelona in a few days and I am hoping to see palm trees other than Washys, Phoenix, and Chamaerops but we'll see. I'll make sure to take photos of anything I find but my time will be limited.

[UK_Palms]

On 7/7/2019 at 5:44 PM, wimmie said:

Adam and Carlos, do you know what species or variety the attached palm is? It's petioles are of a golden/yellow colour throughout the entire leave!

That looks like a Phoenix Theophrasti that has had most of its crown trimmed back. Like excessively hacked back for some reason...? I'm guessing to make it easier to move, which also feeds into the likelihood of it being a Theophrasti, given that they are notoriously spiny & dangerous. I am around 90% sure it is Theophrasti. I can see the resemblance to my own one. 

I suppose it could also be a Dactylifera though. I think a few types/cultivars have yellowish fronds. Possibly through hybridisation with Theophrasti...?

[wimmie]

It isn't Theophrasti, Ben. That's a clustering palm and the species I want to know the name of is single trunked Phoenix. The special item on this palm is the golden/yellow petiole/midrib of the leave throughout the entire length of the leave!

[UK_Palms]

2 hours ago, wimmie said:

It isn't Theophrasti, Ben. That's a clustering palm and the species I want to know the name of is single trunked Phoenix. The special item on this palm is the golden/yellow petiole/midrib of the leave throughout the entire length of the leave!

It has to be Theophrasti, or some kind of hybrid involving a Theophrasti.

Maybe Theophrasti x CIDP. Or perhaps even Theophrasti x Dactylifera, although that would obviously cluster. Which makes me think it is a Theophrasti x CIDP hybrid then. Or it is just a very yellow, genetic variant of normal CIDP. 

I don't see what other kind of Phoenix it could be...

[wimmie]

Well, that's exactly the problem, Ben; although it is a beauty, nobody seems to know of recognize this variety and I haven't been able to find it in Spanish nurseries either.

[pin38]

On 7/7/2019 at 11:48 AM, palmsOrl said:

I had read that Chamaerops humilis is the only palm species found in mainland Europe, but this thread indicates there are two, the other being Phoenix iberica.

 

On 7/7/2019 at 11:58 AM, UK_Palms said:

Don't forget Phoenix Theophrasti. 

There's about 10 old specimens on the Greek mainland, which used to be part of a larger ancient palm forest.

In addition to Greece, I've read Phoenix theoprasti is also native to a few spots in western Turkey, as well as Crete. 

[palmsOrl]

It is a shame they trim it that much, as such a practice would be horrible for that any palm and will cause malnutrition, stunting, pest susceptibility and premature death.

[UK_Palms]

3 hours ago, pin38 said:

 

In addition to Greece, I've read Phoenix theoprasti is also native to a few spots in western Turkey, as well as Crete. 

This is correct, but Turkey is technically not part of Europe. It is part of Asia, although many people refer to it as 'Eurasia", since 3% of Turkey's landmass is situated in the southeast of the European continent. But the other 97% of Turkey is located in Asia, which is also where the Theophrasti specimens are located, in the far south of the country along the Mediterranean coast. And since the Turkish Theophrasti specimens are not in Europe, I did not list it, or refer to them. But you are right. 

[wimmie]

3 hours ago, palmsOrl said:

It is a shame they trim it that much, as such a practice would be horrible for that any palm and will cause malnutrition, stunting, pest susceptibility and premature death.

Michael, the photo shows a municipal buildingsite where the palms were just recently planted. And because the plantingsite is next to a sidewalk, the palms are heavely trimmed for safety.

[Oppido]

hi, the coconut palm could have hope in the Tabernas Desert? Here are some of his climate data:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tabernas_Desert

[MAUSER]

No

[palmsOrl]

11 hours ago, Oppido said:

hi, the coconut palm could have hope in the Tabernas Desert? Here are some of his climate data:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tabernas_Desert

Perhaps just a little chilly on the averages in the winter months, but not by much though actually.  I would try a few if I lived there.