What are signs of drought for trachycarpus fortunei

[Rickybobby]

What are the signs and examples of a trachycarpus in dry conditions 

currently my 7g has been indoors and a year ago I learned that I watered too much indoors and got root rot. This winter it has only been watered rarely. I moved it into my main palm room 80 degrees and I noticed all the fronds folded. A couple of fronds had light brown tipping. A few weeks ago I felt moisture when I put my finger down the soil. Probably just moist. Is folding a drought trend for these? There’s no way it was over watered. Like I said last time watered was like fall. And of course I know with lack of heat and air movement the soil stays moist longer. So the other day I gave the palm a compete soaking and flushed it 

[Chester B]

Yep.  You'll see the fronds kind of fold shut first and then start to see some brown tips on the leaves starting.  After giving a good soak within a few hours the leaves should spread out again.

I'm not sure Trachys can get root rot.  I have some planted in essentially slop and they are the fastest growing ones I have.  The palm nursery by me has a bunch of waggies (seed stock) in a low lying area with a high water table that are essentially flooded 4 or 5 months of the year.

[Rickybobby]

I gave the palm a good soak 2 days ago. Still folded. I’ve never gotten root rot on a palm that hasn’t been watered for months. (Could be a first) having so many palms indoors is a challenge and I’m learning the hard way. I’m thinking more along drought I hope. The original room was always 69f and had south east exposure. I moved it to my heater palm room with south west exposure with led plant lighting and this happened 

[Rickybobby]

4 minutes ago, Chester B said:

Yep.  You'll see the fronds kind of fold shut first and then start to see some brown tips on the leaves starting.  After giving a good soak within a few hours the leaves should spread out again.

I'm not sure Trachys can get root rot.  I have some planted in essentially slop and they are the fastest growing ones I have.  The palm nursery by me has a bunch of waggies (seed stock) in a low lying area with a high water table that are essentially flooded 4 or 5 months of the year.

Chester it seems for me anyway trachycarpus are the root rot kings. My soil mixtures now are so mixed and able to breathe it’s insane once the heat and sun is away from the pots indoors is the problem. I think. We will see. 

[PalmatierMeg]

I can't grow Trachycarpus here but I have a few questons. My understanding is they prefer cooler temps in general so why did you move it from 69F to 80F? I've read Trachies may cease growing when temps consistently exceed 80F and above - is that true? And after high daytime temps they need the relief of much cooler nights(?) Based on what I know of their natural habitats they should have quite a bit of drought tolerance. What is the humidity level of their new environment? Do you have them surrounded by some kind of plastic structure that causes a lot of condensation inside? Could higher heat and humidity promote a lot of condensation that might be adversely affecting your Trachy? I remember from trying to grow a small Trachy (which I mistook for a Coccothrinax) back in the 90s that a combination of FL sweltering heat, humidity and rain caused it to rot away.

Can you post photos of the palm and its growing setup so we can better analyze what's going on?

[kbob11]

I have the same sort of scenerio as you.  I have a 7gal indoors with southern window sun.  I have it in probably too big of a pot but still water it a gallon a week.  The older fronds are looking good.  I’d say you are under watering. It is growing pretty fast with 65f and 50% humidity.  The cheap Home Depot / Lowe’s moisture meter have been great for not over or under doing it!

 

[Chester B]

37 minutes ago, PalmatierMeg said:

I can't grow Trachycarpus here but I have a few questons. My understanding is they prefer cooler temps in general so why did you move it from 69F to 80F? I've read Trachies may cease growing when temps consistently exceed 80F and above - is that true? And after high daytime temps they need the relief of much cooler nights(?) Based on what I know of their natural habitats they should have quite a bit of drought tolerance. What is the humidity level of their new environment? Do you have them surrounded by some kind of plastic structure that causes a lot of condensation inside? Could higher heat and humidity promote a lot of condensation that might be adversely affecting your Trachy? I remember from trying to grow a small Trachy (which I mistook for a Coccothrinax) back in the 90s that a combination of FL sweltering heat, humidity and rain caused it to rot away.

Can you post photos of the palm and its growing setup so we can better analyze what's going on?

Hi Meg,

From what I can tell Trachys love our PNW climate more than pretty much anywhere else on the continent.  In my experience they do not slow down at all above 80F when provided with ample water.  The Palm nursery by me keeps all of his small to medium palms (literally thousands and thousands) in giant hoop houses to keep the heat on them as he says they grow much faster.  On hot days the hoops are at like 120 degrees.  However.... we have very low humidity here in the summer time, typically 20-30% but can go much lower.  Winter is cool, damp, humid and the everything outside is wet/damp for months on end.  My dogs have muddy feet from late October to almost June and I have to wait for a couple weeks of no rain in June to be able to cut the grass because my lawnmower sinks in our lovely Willamette Valley Clay.  Summers are sunny, hot and dry, however... the weather here is very different from most of North America.  Nighttime temperatures fall to the 50's, by noon we may be at 70 and by five we'll be in the 90's. The daytime high usually only occurs for an hour or two each day.  You never wake up thinking "oh boy it's going to be a hot one today".   So I think you're probably correct the High temps coupled with high humidity is not the best for Trachys and I think I've heard nematodes attack them down towards Florida.

Rickybobby I've been starting trachys and the like indoors for a few years now, even when I lived back in Ontario.  I agree keep the soil free draining and water deeply when the soil is dry an inch or so down or when the fronds start to fold, preferably the former.  I can't get the PromixHP here that BananaJoe likes to promote so I kind of make my own blend.  At Homedepot I buy the Cactus and citrus blend (50%) and add to orchid blend (25%) and finally add perlite (25%) as they are all pretty easy to acquire.  It makes a pretty light rapidly draining mix that I seem to have luck with for my indoor palms such as Rhaphis exelsa (Lady Palm) and Chamaedorea elegans (parlor palm), as well as my outdoor palm seedlings.  I water from the bottom allowing the pots to soak in water for about an hour and do not fertilize other than using water from an aquarium which contains dilute fish waste.  I'm assuming no signs of infestation from scale or mealy bug?

 

[mdsonofthesouth]

15 hours ago, Chester B said:

Yep.  You'll see the fronds kind of fold shut first and then start to see some brown tips on the leaves starting.  After giving a good soak within a few hours the leaves should spread out again.

I'm not sure Trachys can get root rot.  I have some planted in essentially slop and they are the fastest growing ones I have.  The palm nursery by me has a bunch of waggies (seed stock) in a low lying area with a high water table that are essentially flooded 4 or 5 months of the year.

 

Lets not forget @Banana Joe's trachycarpus swamp-something lol

 

@PalmatierMeg I think its a combination of the sand and lack of a break from heat. We have similar summers here to more northern Florida and they do fine in the heat. 

Edited January 17, 2019 by mdsonofthesouth

[Chester B]

2 minutes ago, mdsonofthesouth said:

 

Lets not forget @Banana Joe's trachycarpus swamp-something lol

Exactly.  If you look up Banana Joe's Youtube channel and look up Trachycarpus swampsonei you will see how adaptable Trachycarpus really are.

[Rickybobby]

I’m wondering if really what the difference was. The room it was in at 69 was around 50 percent humidity and the warm room 80f is in the mid 30s for humidity and that’s why it has folded up. There’s no way it got root rot. It never got watered soil was only lightly damp before hand 

[Rickybobby]

So I’ve put it right back in the spot that it was growing slow but looked jut fine. Southeast facing window. It never folded leaves until I put it in the warm room. I figured it would love the heat? I guess not the dryness

[Rickybobby]

5 hours ago, Chester B said:

Hi Meg,

From what I can tell Trachys love our PNW climate more than pretty much anywhere else on the continent.  In my experience they do not slow down at all above 80F when provided with ample water.  The Palm nursery by me keeps all of his small to medium palms (literally thousands and thousands) in giant hoop houses to keep the heat on them as he says they grow much faster.  On hot days the hoops are at like 120 degrees.  However.... we have very low humidity here in the summer time, typically 20-30% but can go much lower.  Winter is cool, damp, humid and the everything outside is wet/damp for months on end.  My dogs have muddy feet from late October to almost June and I have to wait for a couple weeks of no rain in June to be able to cut the grass because my lawnmower sinks in our lovely Willamette Valley Clay.  Summers are sunny, hot and dry, however... the weather here is very different from most of North America.  Nighttime temperatures fall to the 50's, by noon we may be at 70 and by five we'll be in the 90's. The daytime high usually only occurs for an hour or two each day.  You never wake up thinking "oh boy it's going to be a hot one today".   So I think you're probably correct the High temps coupled with high humidity is not the best for Trachys and I think I've heard nematodes attack them down towards Florida.

Rickybobby I've been starting trachys and the like indoors for a few years now, even when I lived back in Ontario.  I agree keep the soil free draining and water deeply when the soil is dry an inch or so down or when the fronds start to fold, preferably the former.  I can't get the PromixHP here that BananaJoe likes to promote so I kind of make my own blend.  At Homedepot I buy the Cactus and citrus blend (50%) and add to orchid blend (25%) and finally add perlite (25%) as they are all pretty easy to acquire.  It makes a pretty light rapidly draining mix that I seem to have luck with for my indoor palms such as Rhaphis exelsa (Lady Palm) and Chamaedorea elegans (parlor palm), as well as my outdoor palm seedlings.  I water from the bottom allowing the pots to soak in water for about an hour and do not fertilize other than using water from an aquarium which contains dilute fish waste.  I'm assuming no signs of infestation from scale or mealy bug?

 

No infestation at all looks great

[Rickybobby]

Here’s today’s pic back in spot where it was fine. I’m guessing lack of water and then dry heat ticked it off. Thanks everyone lots of good info 

i was worried about over watering root rot  I’ve been so up and down with this  I increased my palm room temps and the winter got colder so the furnace is on a lot and the house got dry and all of a sudden I can’t keep up

[Rickybobby]

I was just on Christian Faulkner’s love you tube. He’s thinking the palm is not like the consistant dry weather it’s in now. So we will see thanks everyone 

[PalmatierMeg]

Looks like it may want not just water but humidity. Once or twice a week run hot water in a closed bathroom. Turn off water then let palm sit in the steamy room a while. Or you can give it a tepid shower in the tub.

[UK_Palms]

Generally speaking, I find Trachycarpus to be pretty drought resistant. They are indigenous to areas that receive moderate rainfall, often in the form of monsoons, but they are also used to periods of drought in their natural range, where there may be practically no rainfall for 4-5 months during the drier part of the season. Consequently, I rarely have to water my Trachy's in summer even, which cannot be said for most of my other palms. The Trachy's are probably the one genus that requires the least maintenance and are the easiest to grow.

From my own observations, I have found Trachycarpus to be less demanding of water than Phoenix species during hot, dry weather. I rarely if ever see any of my many Trachy's suffer during the hot dry summer weather, whereas my Phoenix species, such Theophrasti and Canariensis, kick up a right fuss if they don't get plenty of water. The fronds on the Phoenix's will brown off completely and growth will grind to a halt, unless they get plenty of water from June - August. That may mean daily watering for Phoenix species here, during hot & dry spells.

However, I do not notice that same problem with Trachycarpus's. They seem to have pretty good drought tolerance and aren't as water demanding during the summer months. As someone else has previously stated though, they will also grow fine in permanently wet/waterlogged soil, which is often the case for the half of the year in their natural range. I too have some seedlings that are growing in 'slop' and they look fine. Trachy's are pretty darn resilient in all but the toughest climates - say arid, desert climates, or extreme polar climates. Everywhere else they are pretty much bulletproof, whether you get 10 inches of rain a year, or 70 inches. They'll grow in north Africa, and also in Scandinavia. 

The biggest issue with indoor Trachy's, or any palm in general, is the lack of natural light. Trachy's will lose their vigour and fronds will start dying back if they do not get sufficient light, which they can then use for photosynthesis. It won't kill the palm if you leave it in your living room until April, but it may continue to deteriorate until then, and look progressively worse, until you get it outside and exposed to natural, unfiltered light.

Also, that isn't bark chippings for a growing medium is it? Trachy's like damp loam soil, compost, manure etc with a bit of sand or perlite mixed in for filteration. They don't like dry, non-soil mediums, as they are adapted to permanently wet, heavy soils in their native ranges. Your medium looks too dry and barren for Trachy's. That looks more like a Washingtonia setup than a Trachy one. I have never seen a Trachy grown in such a dry, barren medium as yours. That may also be part of the issue.

[Rickybobby]

2 hours ago, UK_Palms said:

Generally speaking, I find Trachycarpus to be pretty drought resistant. They are indigenous to areas that receive moderate rainfall, often in the form of monsoons, but they are also used to periods of drought in their natural range, where there may be practically no rainfall for 4-5 months during the drier part of the season. Consequently, I rarely have to water my Trachy's in summer even, which cannot be said for most of my other palms. The Trachy's are probably the one genus that requires the least maintenance and are the easiest to grow.

From my own observations, I have found Trachycarpus to be less demanding of water than Phoenix species during hot, dry weather. I rarely if ever see any of my many Trachy's suffer during the hot dry summer weather, whereas my Phoenix species, such Theophrasti and Canariensis, kick up a right fuss if they don't get plenty of water. The fronds on the Phoenix's will brown off completely and growth will grind to a halt, unless they get plenty of water from June - August. That may mean daily watering for Phoenix species here, during hot & dry spells.

However, I do not notice that same problem with Trachycarpus's. They seem to have pretty good drought tolerance and aren't as water demanding during the summer months. As someone else has previously stated though, they will also grow fine in permanently wet/waterlogged soil, which is often the case for the half of the year in their natural range. I too have some seedlings that are growing in 'slop' and they look fine. Trachy's are pretty darn resilient in all but the toughest climates - say arid, desert climates, or extreme polar climates. Everywhere else they are pretty much bulletproof, whether you get 10 inches of rain a year, or 70 inches. They'll grow in north Africa, and also in Scandinavia. 

The biggest issue with indoor Trachy's, or any palm in general, is the lack of natural light. Trachy's will lose their vigour and fronds will start dying back if they do not get sufficient light, which they can then use for photosynthesis. It won't kill the palm if you leave it in your living room until April, but it may continue to deteriorate until then, and look progressively worse, until you get it outside and exposed to natural, unfiltered light.

Also, that isn't bark chippings for a growing medium is it? Trachy's like damp loam soil, compost, manure etc with a bit of sand or perlite mixed in for filteration. They don't like dry, non-soil mediums, as they are adapted to permanently wet, heavy soils in their native ranges. Your medium looks too dry and barren for Trachy's. That looks more like a Washingtonia setup than a Trachy one. I have never seen a Trachy grown in such a dry, barren medium as yours. That may also be part of the issue.

Those bark chips are just for top cover 

the medium is a mix of sand peat perlite etc. This palm originally came from Florida and I only added a tad of my mix to it when I potted it up

[Rickybobby]

I wonder if this palm had slight root damage. When I bought it the oldest fronds were frayed and bent but it grew so well all summer when I brought it in. It’s only been watered a couple times. I wonder if the lack of summer heat has done it in? It looked pretty good and it changed in a day like this  sucks. I only had it since this summer as a last minute patio palm. Normally I’ve killed a trachy with too much water etc. This time I did none of that. Didn’t seem to matter 

[Rickybobby]

Not sure if you can see in this pic but obviously it’s. Very windy here. But the oldest fronds were shriveled when I bought it and this palm came from a Florida nursery

[Allen]

Just don't overwater it and wait till next year to see how it does.  I don't think anything is wrong with it.

[Brad Mondel]

I've been growing Trachycarpus for many years and I've never had a problem with root rot. I keep them moderately moist in summer and let them dry out a little between waterings in winter if they're potted. Did you rip off the old leaf bases? Or trim them?

[Rickybobby]

I spoke with Christian Faulkner again today and asked an interesting question. Are the palm nurseries that sell to northern us and Canada using cheap. Non draining soil? I have had many issues with pot drainage whenever I buy a palm from a nursery here. He told me the nursery’s use the cheapest soil possible and basically sell the palms as annuals. Which makes sense. Most of what I have purchased has gotten root rot even if I only water when needed. When i potted up i used a better draining medium but the existing roots and soil still in junk. If one thing I can attest too. Is that most of the palms I bought were not in the greatest of shape. Even with pre ordering months in advance and with all these factors. Being inside for the winter and not hot and sunny doesn’t help. I do have many seedlings I’ve grown with my own medium doing very well

[UK_Palms]

On 1/21/2019 at 10:10 PM, Rickybobby said:

Not sure if you can see in this pic but obviously it’s. Very windy here. But the oldest fronds were shriveled when I bought it and this palm came from a Florida nursery

 

Please someone correct me if you think I am wrong, but I have seen hundreds of Trachy's and have 5 moderately sized Fortunei's myself, but the one in this photo does not look like Fortunei.  

The length of those petioles are consistent with the Trachycarpus 'green' nova if you ask me. Either that or it has been deprived of sunlight, which has elongated the petioles, but I doubt that is the case if it came from Florida where it would have been grown outside and where they obviously get plenty of strong sunshine. The trunk doesn't appear to have much fibres on it either, whereas Fortunei has quite a lot of fibres. Again that is more consistent with Nova. 

The fronds of all Trachycarpus's can be quite variable, especially Fortunei's. Some are way more robust than others, able to take an absolute beating of wind and retain their shape, whereas other specimens have fronds that get damaged and tatty in low wind and sheltered conditions still.

Adorably cute picture by the way 

[Chester B]

18 hours ago, UK_Palms said:

 

Please someone correct me if you think I am wrong, but I have seen hundreds of Trachy's and have 5 moderately sized Fortunei's myself, but the one in this photo does not look like Fortunei.  

The length of those petioles are consistent with the Trachycarpus 'green' nova if you ask me. Either that or it has been deprived of sunlight, which has elongated the petioles, but I doubt that is the case if it came from Florida where it would have been grown outside and where they obviously get plenty of strong sunshine. The trunk doesn't appear to have much fibres on it either, whereas Fortunei has quite a lot of fibres. Again that is more consistent with Nova. 

The fronds of all Trachycarpus's can be quite variable, especially Fortunei's. Some are way more robust than others, able to take an absolute beating of wind and retain their shape, whereas other specimens have fronds that get damaged and tatty in low wind and sheltered conditions still.

Adorably cute picture by the way 

Most Trachys here are greenhouse grown and heavily crowded.  It's pretty typical to see them looking like that when you buy them from places like Home Depot and Lowes.  In my area the palms are from California.   It takes about a year for them to grow out of that appearance.  Once you get them outside and in the ground they will start putting up thicker fronds with much much shorter petioles.  Field grown specimens are much fuller but a little harder to come by.

[Rickybobby]

Well all the fronds have dried up. Except the two spears coming up. Which won’t pull so we will. Not looking good today 

[Chester B]

Sounds drought stressed to me.  I did the same thing to a Washingtonia.

[Rickybobby]

11 minutes ago, Chester B said:

Sounds drought stressed to me.  I did the same thing to a Washingtonia.

Hope you are right and I will update 

[Chester B]

Here's a pic of a shade grown Trachy I have.  I bought it because it was 6' to the top of the fronds and would provide some immediate gratification.  You can see the tall original fronds are very spread out, thin, have long petioles and windbeaten.  The final picture shows the latest frond - Much much shorter and far beefier and about 3' below the tallest fronds.

 

[Rickybobby]

Yes fronds were super long like that when I bought it. But everything new that grew last summer looked nothing like in that picture and more like a fortunei. The Florida nursery’s make them stretch a lot. 

[Chester B]

Here's another example of stretched out Trachys.  I bought these from Lowes for $30 each with each clump comprised of three palms.  They were planted the second week of May 2017.  So in just under two years the fronds are just now higher than fronds it had when I first got them but as you can see much fuller.  The actual trunks have grown 6"-9" and now produce much thicker fronds with shorter petioles.  I expect this year for them to easily clear the fence.

[Rickybobby]

2 hours ago, Chester B said:

Here's another example of stretched out Trachys.  I bought these from Lowes for $30 each with each clump comprised of three palms.  They were planted the second week of May 2017.  So in just under two years the fronds are just now higher than fronds it had when I first got them but as you can see much fuller.  The actual trunks have grown 6"-9" and now produce much thicker fronds with shorter petioles.  I expect this year for them to easily clear the fence.

Looks good