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frienduvafrond

Sabal minors

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frienduvafrond

I like these smaller minors, that grow more inland. 

20181015_153403-1.jpg

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PalmatierMeg
3 hours ago, frienduvafrond said:

I like these smaller minors, that grow more inland. 

20181015_153403-1.jpg

Interesting. How large do they ultimately get compared to standard minors? In NFL and along the Gulf Coast there are a number of what I call "uber dwarf" Sabal minors, some of them quite tiny. Most are named for the nearest town or settlement to the newly discovered population, i.e. Blountstown Dwarf and Wakulla Dwarf (each 12-18" tall and 30" wide), Chipola Dwarf (2' tall x 4' wide), High Spring Dwarf, Castor Dwarf. To my knowledge most of these variations grow true from seeds

My point is maybe you've discovered an uber dwarf form of S. minor in NC. You will have to check out and document the population perhaps collect and germinate seeds. Sabal minor is unique among Sabals in its diversity of geographical variations. How exciting if you've come across an undocumented variation.

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NC_Palms

PalmatierMeg hit the nail on the head! Sabal minors are extremely diverse. Bailey once said that you would think you are seeing multiple palm species in the South, yet they are all Sabal minors. I have no doubt in my mind that those smaller Sabal minors could be a different variety.

I was actually talking to Gary a few days ago about Sabal minor diversity. We were talking about the possibility that Sabal minor diversity might have been caused by hybridization with an extinct palm species. 

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PalmTreeDude

Do you know if these Sabal minor are from a North Carolina population? When I see Sabal minor in North Carolina I am used to seeing big fronds with a blue tinge and an occasional trunking one. If these are from an N.C. population, I would definitely try to find it in habitat if you can! I know Sabal minor can grow smaller in full sun (assuming these are in full sun), but even the fronds on these look different. It's like they open at that angle that known dwarf varieties open at. I remember PalmatierMeg talked about this on an older thread. 

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NC_Palms
7 minutes ago, PalmTreeDude said:

Do you know if these Sabal minor are from a North Carolina population? When I see Sabal minor in North Carolina I am used to seeing big fronds with a blue tinge and an occasional trunking one. If these are from an N.C. population, I would definitely try to find it in habitat if you can! I know Sabal minor can grow smaller in full sun (assuming these are in full sun), but even the fronds on these look different. It's like they open at that angle that known dwarf varieties open at. I remember PalmatierMeg talked about this on an older thread. 

The farther east you travel in North Carolina, the larger the Sabal minors get. In my county they stay pretty small but just 20 minutes east and you’ll see them start to develop mini trunks. I have no idea why this is, but my guess is because of soil composition. 

 

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PalmTreeDude
1 minute ago, NC_Palms said:

The farther east you travel in North Carolina, the larger the Sabal minors get. In my county they stay pretty small but just 20 minutes east and you’ll see them start to develop mini trunks. I have no idea why this is, but my guess is because of soil composition. 

 

I saw some crazy beefy ones around Jacksonville,  N.C.

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NC_Palms
Just now, PalmTreeDude said:

I saw some crazy beefy ones around Jacksonville,  N.C.

The biggest ones i’ve ever seen were in Pamlico and Beaufort Counties. They looked almost like Birminghams

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PalmTreeDude
2 minutes ago, NC_Palms said:

The biggest ones i’ve ever seen were in Pamlico and Beaufort Counties. They looked almost like Birminghams

I saw pictures of some of those on Harys Nursery's website. They look almost like a whole different species. I want to go see them some day in person. 

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NC_Palms
5 minutes ago, PalmTreeDude said:

I saw pictures of some of those on Harys Nursery's website. They look almost like a whole different species. I want to go see them some day in person. 

You should plan to come down to NC and visit Gary. I visit him every few weeks to pick up palms. 

If you ever come down, I can give you the locations to where you can find these giant Sabal minors. 

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frienduvafrond
On 1/7/2019 at 1:06 PM, PalmatierMeg said:

Interesting. How large do they ultimately get compared to standard minors? In NFL and along the Gulf Coast there are a number of what I call "uber dwarf" Sabal minors, some of them quite tiny. Most are named for the nearest town or settlement to the newly discovered population, i.e. Blountstown Dwarf and Wakulla Dwarf (each 12-18" tall and 30" wide), Chipola Dwarf (2' tall x 4' wide), High Spring Dwarf, Castor Dwarf. To my knowledge most of these variations grow true from seeds

My point is maybe you've discovered an uber dwarf form of S. minor in NC. You will have to check out and document the population perhaps collect and germinate seeds. Sabal minor is unique among Sabals in its diversity of geographical variations. How exciting if you've come across an undocumented variation.

These are cultivated, I was using them as an example of the smaller inland type. They are planted at a grocery store, so I doubt they are uber dwarf. I assume uber dwarfs would be expensive and hard to get, but ya never know. I have thought about searching the inland populations for dwarfs, but figured it has already been done. I assume these minors pictured will get medium sized, but I don't know the source. They are seeding already at this size, and the angle of the fronds is quite different from the native large minors.

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PalmatierMeg
4 hours ago, frienduvafrond said:

These are cultivated, I was using them as an example of the smaller inland type. They are planted at a grocery store, so I doubt they are uber dwarf. I assume uber dwarfs would be expensive and hard to get, but ya never know. I have thought about searching the inland populations for dwarfs, but figured it has already been done. I assume these minors pictured will get medium sized, but I don't know the source. They are seeding already at this size, and the angle of the fronds is quite different from the native large minors.

I would collect seeds from those minors, germinate and grow them to see what you get. All the dwarf Sabal minors I have originally came from Plant Delights Nursery in Raleigh. Unforturnately, their latest catalog is woefully deficient in Sabal minor varieties but they keep previous offerings in archive.

One intriguing thing I did notice about your original photo, aside from the overall size of the palm, is the shape and angle of the leaves, which you also mentioned. While normal Sabal minor leaves are nearly circular, i.e., 360 degrees, leaves of many of the uber dwarfs, esp. Blountstown and Wakulla, have approx. 60-75 degree angles. See photo of my original Blountstown mother palm below and compare.

Sabal_minor_Blountstown_dwf_mother_01_04-08-18.thumb.jpg.153aaf68f40f72b87790c6f05e9ed7cd.jpg

 

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frienduvafrond
20 hours ago, PalmatierMeg said:

I would collect seeds from those minors, germinate and grow them to see what you get. All the dwarf Sabal minors I have originally came from Plant Delights Nursery in Raleigh. Unforturnately, their latest catalog is woefully deficient in Sabal minor varieties but they keep previous offerings in archive.

One intriguing thing I did notice about your original photo, aside from the overall size of the palm, is the shape and angle of the leaves, which you also mentioned. While normal Sabal minor leaves are nearly circular, i.e., 360 degrees, leaves of many of the uber dwarfs, esp. Blountstown and Wakulla, have approx. 60-75 degree angles. See photo of my original Blountstown mother palm below and compare.

Sabal_minor_Blountstown_dwf_mother_01_04-08-18.thumb.jpg.153aaf68f40f72b87790c6f05e9ed7cd.jpg

 

They do look similar to your pic above. They are quite uniform in growth as well.

20181015_153412-1.jpg

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frienduvafrond

These are what I normally see. These are holding about the same amount of frond, yet are larger in all their parts. They are also in shade though.

20180802_152852-1-1.jpg

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Sabal_Louisiana

The farther east you travel in North Carolina, the larger the Sabal minors get. In my county they stay pretty small but just 20 minutes east and you’ll see them start to develop mini trunks. I have no idea why this is, but my guess is because of soil composition. 

I'm not sure about NC but in Louisiana, the trunk size appears to be an adaptation to elevation and standing water level. They are most abundant and very dense on natural levees and ridges in bottomland hardwood forests but remain as shrubs. As one transitions to deeper swamp and lower elevation, they get more scattered but grow taller and may have emergent trunks.

This phenomenon occurs in the southern part of the state. North of I-10 they rarely develop trunks, even in swamps. However, I've seen some huge ones that were almost 10 feet tall - all crown hardly any trunk.

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GaDawg

Sabals here in SE Georgia.

palms.jpg

palms 2.jpg

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NC_Palms
On 2/9/2019 at 11:51 PM, Sabal_Louisiana said:

The farther east you travel in North Carolina, the larger the Sabal minors get. In my county they stay pretty small but just 20 minutes east and you’ll see them start to develop mini trunks. I have no idea why this is, but my guess is because of soil composition. 

I'm not sure about NC but in Louisiana, the trunk size appears to be an adaptation to elevation and standing water level. They are most abundant and very dense on natural levees and ridges in bottomland hardwood forests but remain as shrubs. As one transitions to deeper swamp and lower elevation, they get more scattered but grow taller and may have emergent trunks.

This phenomenon occurs in the southern part of the state. North of I-10 they rarely develop trunks, even in swamps. However, I've seen some huge ones that were almost 10 feet tall - all crown hardly any trunk.

That makes sense. The tallest Sabal minors i’ve seen were growing in marshlands and tidal forest. I have never seen any trunking minors west of the Tidewater region in NC. 

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mdsonofthesouth

What variety are the largest sabal minors?

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PalmTreeDude
6 hours ago, mdsonofthesouth said:

What variety are the largest sabal minors?

Sabal minor from Southern Louisiana and Northeastern/Eastern N.C. especially along the Pamlico River (I want to visit these someday). Even Monkey Island has huge ones. But I believe that the ones in Southern Louisiana take the cake since they can literally grow into palm trees

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mdsonofthesouth
7 hours ago, PalmTreeDude said:

Sabal minor from Southern Louisiana and Northeastern/Eastern N.C. especially along the Pamlico River (I want to visit these someday). Even Monkey Island has huge ones. But I believe that the ones in Southern Louisiana take the cake since they can literally grow into palm trees

 

Ok so Louisiana it is! Although NC varieties would feel closer to home Im sure. Never been to Monkey island but growing up beach trips in OBX and Currituck county areas would make the palms nostalgic lol.

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NC_Palms

Not how hardy the Sabal Louisianas are, but near Belhaven, NC there are populations of trunking Sabal minors that have seen temperatures as cold as -10°F. No where in NC (besides the mountains) has gotten this cold. 

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mdsonofthesouth

Thats the "hundred year event" type cold here too. 

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NC_Palms
31 minutes ago, mdsonofthesouth said:

Thats the "hundred year event" type cold here too. 

 I have some seeds I can send you if you'd like

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mdsonofthesouth

Id be curious about germinating sabal minors, but worried about how slow they are. Will get with you at some point about them.

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