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Coconut Palm Experiment in Southern Italy

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veeman55
On 1/3/2019, 3:41:09, pietropuccio said:

The wall is north-facing!

Did the recent cold damage your cavendish?. In gela catania pozzallo bananas and papayas were killed

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veeman55
10 hours ago, Stelios said:

Hi Vee.

I believe the siberian cold that hit Italy and Greece is here!

For the temps if you mean this winter I think around 7c in Paphos for 1 night and around 6c in Limassol but for record temps maybe around 0c for both towns. Very rarely we have less than 5c for a few nights and not every winter. Last night I was watching the forecast on TV and it was showing Paphos 11c and Limassol 7c. Generally the two towns have similar temps but when we get snowfall on the top of Troodos mountain, Limassol can have cooler nights because is more near the mountain than Paphos.

In Phassouri or Fasouri which is near Limassol, generally they grow citrus (oranges, lemons etc). In Paphos we have a big area to the north of the town with banana plantations mostly but also some avocado, mango, different other tropical fruits. We have a lot of citrus too.

I noticed that our winters are more mild since I was a child. I don't know if the climate is becoming warmer globally but for example the plumerias at my parents house used to have less leave by now. I just took this photo today and this is how they look. The 1st has white and the 2nd pink flowers (still have a few flowers on them). As for pineapple, I have one (which you can see on the righthand side in the photo of the coconut) outside for its first winter under all this rain (planted in mostly sand), but protected near coconut.

 

2019-01-07 08.15.43.jpg

2019-01-07 08.16.17.jpg

2019-01-07 08.16.36.jpg

Nice Pineapple Stelios.

Alot of rain shouldnt be a problem to your coconut as long as the temps dont go too low during that rain and it drains well.

Are you salting it?

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UK_Palms
10 minutes ago, veeman55 said:

Wasnt London warmer many years ago than it is now?

This year you got a nice warm spell. Northern italian alp region while south was in a deep freeze with snowstorms in puglia and parts of sicily.

southern alp and italian lakes towns were getting sunshine and +12 at night +16 during the day due to fohn winds. Due to a huge high pressure.

Weird whacky weather

 

London may have been warmer in ancient times, from the period of the Roman occupation, up until around 500AD. Then i think much of Europe experienced cooling and mini ice ages. But its only in recent times that we have experienced significant warming. They used to hold a fare on the river Thames when it froze over in the 1700's. It was called an 'ice fair'. Apparently most winters the Thames would freeze solid for 2-3 weeks of the year! It never freezes now though. I think the last time it actually froze over was in like 1985. These days London is far too mild for that to happen.

Actually, London has only dropped below 0C once this winter, so far. The urban heat island obviously helps as well, with London having the largest metropolitan area in Europe. I'm 35 miles away from London and my nights in winter are always 2-3C colder usually. 

It has definitely been whacky this year. Most of the US east coast has experienced well above average temps as well, much like western Europe. Eastern Europe on the other hand has been hit hard by the cold. I saw that even Athens had a low of -2C the other night, while that same night it only dropped to 6C here in my location. Athens is at 37N. I am at 51N. So that is crazy weather for January.

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pietropuccio
2 hours ago, veeman55 said:

Did the recent cold damage your cavendish?. In gela catania pozzallo bananas and papayas were killed

But where do you take this news from?

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Stelios
11 hours ago, veeman55 said:

Nice Pineapple Stelios.

Alot of rain shouldnt be a problem to your coconut as long as the temps dont go too low during that rain and it drains well.

Are you salting it?

 

This is the first year that I was watering the palm with seawater around once a week in the summer. I don't know if it helps against the cold but so far it seems that seawater didn't show any negative results on the palm. Time will tell.

You have a nice microclimate in Reggio so it would be interesting to see what other palms people grow there.

Best regards

Stelios

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veeman55
19 hours ago, pietropuccio said:

But where do you take this news from?

19 hours ago, pietropuccio said:

But where do you take this news from?

From actual people who live in gela and pozzallo? I have facebook freinds in tropical subtropical plant groups and fruit sites. 

Here is my freinds cavendish  near the colder airport area with absolutely no frost damage to young and mature fingers and leaves

IMG_0371.JPG

IMG_0374.JPG

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pietropuccio

Sorry, but I have no confidence in social networks, anyone can say what he wants without any control.
Regarding the "Cavendish" of Palermo they are fine, after all the minimum temperatures of Palermo are always higher than those of Reggio C. (in the recent cold wave +6 °C against +4 °C of Reggio).

Edited by pietropuccio
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veeman55
21 hours ago, pietropuccio said:

Sorry, but I have no confidence in social networks, anyone can say what he wants without any control.
Regarding the "Cavendish" of Palermo they are fine, after all the minimum temperatures of Palermo are always higher than those of Reggio C. (in the recent cold wave +6 °C against +4 °C of Reggio).

21 hours ago, pietropuccio said:

Sorry, but I have no confidence in social networks, anyone can say what he wants without any control.
Regarding the "Cavendish" of Palermo they are fine, after all the minimum temperatures of Palermo are always higher than those of Reggio C. (in the recent cold wave +6 °C against +4 °C of Reggio).

21 hours ago, pietropuccio said:

Sorry, but I have no confidence in social networks, anyone can say what he wants without any control.
Regarding the "Cavendish" of Palermo they are fine, after all the minimum temperatures of Palermo are always higher than those of Reggio C. (in the recent cold wave +6 °C against +4 °C of Reggio).

I saw pictures. Palermo isnt always warmer. Its also a much bigger city than reggio which determines temperatures. Reggio airport doesnt have the heating benefit palermo central does.

Pellaro just south is even warmer than both cities esp in the lows

Edited by veeman55
Typo

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GottmitAlex

In my microclimate, I turn on the brood lamps for my young coco palms if the temperature hits below 5c at night.

I do drape thecoco seedlings with only a tarp above. I do not tent them. No need in my climate.  

Here are a couple pictures of the exposed Pacific tall young cocos. And the store bought golden Pacific tall along with the red Tahiti dwarf coco which are draped with a only a tarp for winter (cold rain, etc) . Here again, no side panels/ tenting. Just a brood lamp 80% trained on the soil and 20% towards the meristem.   You may notice the B.alfredii in the middle which (3rd picture) has no supplemental heat or tarp. (The one which has the red 10w LED over it.) Looks like a a weed between the coconuts. (Ironically, it's 3 years older than the green pacific talls flanking it. )

20190113_000317-980x2016.jpg

20190113_000340-980x2016.jpg

20190113_000306-2016x980.jpg

And yes, I must stress, compared to cocos nucifera, in the same spot/plot of land (shade or no shade), B.alfredii are very slow growers. I love the alfredii. It's the next California CIDP and more tropical at that. That said,  it's still, just as the CIDP,  a 30 year grow.

 

 

Edited by GottmitAlex
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sandgroper
48 minutes ago, GottmitAlex said:

In my microclimate, I turn on the brood lamps for my young coco palms if the temperature hits below 5c at night.

I do drape thecoco seedlings with only a tarp above. I do not tent them. No need in my climate.  

Here are a couple pictures of the exposed Pacific tall young cocos. And the store bought golden Pacific tall along with the red Tahiti dwarf coco which are draped with a only a tarp for winter (cold rain, etc) . Here again, no side panels/ tenting. Just a brood lamp 80% trained on the soil and 20% towards the meristem.   You may notice the B.alfredii in the middle which (3rd picture) has no supplemental heat or tarp. (The one which has the red 10w LED over it.) Looks like a a weed between the coconuts. (Ironically, it's 3 years older than the green pacific talls flanking it. )

20190113_000317-980x2016.jpg

20190113_000340-980x2016.jpg

20190113_000306-2016x980.jpg

And yes, I must stress, compared to cocos nucifera, in the same spot/plot of land (shade or no shade), B.alfredii are very slow growers. I love the alfredii. It's the next California CIDP and more tropical at that. That said,  it's still, just as the CIDP,  a 30 year grow.

 

 

How wide is the strip you have the coconuts in Alex? I hope they grow well for you mate but it'll be a tight fit when they start getting bigger.

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GottmitAlex
37 minutes ago, sandgroper said:

How wide is the strip you have the coconuts in Alex? I hope they grow well for you mate but it'll be a tight fit when they start getting bigger.

Yes mate. 60ft long, 2ft- 3ft wide in cetain areas.     They will get claustrophobic. However, I do not think they all will make it in my 32.6 latitude. I am an engineer: 1 out of 6 is the possibility. I only have five Cocos n and one B.alfredii. Being realistic, I do not expect all of them to survive.  However, I would welcome the challenge of having 5 cocos and 1 alfredii surviving in my region...  I'd actually be humbled even if they (or one of them) can grow in a Cali 9B (I.e. Corona,CA). 

20190113_000317-980x2016.jpg

20190113_000340-980x2016.jpg

20190113_000306-2016x980.jpg

Edited by GottmitAlex
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GottmitAlex

Remember folks, there's also the Mexicali Coco.. and from what I have read, it is still alive beneath the power lines.....

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GottmitAlex
On 1/8/2019, 11:11:18, pietropuccio said:

Sorry, but I have no confidence in social networks, anyone can say what he wants without any control.
 

Hey! More power to you! 

I imagine this is one of the many reasons Palmtalk was created. 

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sandgroper
2 hours ago, GottmitAlex said:

Yes mate. 60ft long, 2ft- 3ft wide in cetain areas.     They will get claustrophobic. However, I do not think they all will make it in my 32.6 latitude. I am an engineer: 1 out of 6 is the possibility. I only have five Cocos n and one B.alfredii. Being realistic, I do not expect all of them to survive.  However, I would welcome the challenge of having 5 cocos and 1 alfredii surviving in my region...  I'd actually be humbled even if they (or one of them) can grow in a Cali 9B (I.e. Corona,CA). 

20190113_000317-980x2016.jpg

20190113_000340-980x2016.jpg

20190113_000306-2016x980.jpg

Good luck with them mate, it's a lot of fun playing around with these things and pretty rewarding when we have the occasional win.

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Alicante
6 hours ago, GottmitAlex said:

Remember folks, there's also the Mexicali Coco.. and from what I have read, it is still alive beneath the power lines.....

Yes, and there are also coconuts in Cuba, Panamá and Thailand. For example. :lol:

Both Mexicali and your own climate are a looot warmer during winter, and spring, and autumn, and summer... when it comes to highs. You have a real chance since your winter highs are completely much warmer. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexicali#Climate

Mexicali has no month with average highs under 20°C (while this place lasts half a year with high averages under 20°C) also being at 32°N means much stronger sun. And your avg sun hours are also a lot higher.

In February, the average highs are already above 23°C, but the best from Mexicali is the annual mean, which is 23.1°C. A world apart, honestly.  It's like comparing apples with oranges! ^_^

 

Edited by Alicante

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veeman55
6 hours ago, GottmitAlex said:

Remember folks, there's also the Mexicali Coco.. and from what I have read, it is still alive beneath the power lines.....

On 1/8/2019, 2:11:18, pietropuccio said:

Reggio).

On 1/8/2019, 2:11:18, pietropuccio said:

 

On 1/8/2019, 2:11:18, pietropuccio said:

 

Is there a picture of it somewhere? It must be cool.

Mexicali baja is very hot in summer 110s/120s/130s similar to deathvalley and mideast heat like san luis rio colorado just accross into mainland mexico Sonoran desert

They can get occasional frost too but thats desert weather for you but its a a hot zone below sea level.

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veeman55
8 hours ago, GottmitAlex said:

In my microclimate, I turn on the brood lamps for my young coco palms if the temperature hits below 5c at night.

I do drape thecoco seedlings with only a tarp above. I do not tent them. No need in my climate.  

Here are a couple pictures of the exposed Pacific tall young cocos. And the store bought golden Pacific tall along with the red Tahiti dwarf coco which are draped with a only a tarp for winter (cold rain, etc) . Here again, no side panels/ tenting. Just a brood lamp 80% trained on the soil and 20% towards the meristem.   You may notice the B.alfredii in the middle which (3rd picture) has no supplemental heat or tarp. (The one which has the red 10w LED over it.) Looks like a a weed between the coconuts. (Ironically, it's 3 years older than the green pacific talls flanking it. )

20190113_000317-980x2016.jpg

20190113_000340-980x2016.jpg

20190113_000306-2016x980.jpg

And yes, I must stress, compared to cocos nucifera, in the same spot/plot of land (shade or no shade), B.alfredii are very slow growers. I love the alfredii. It's the next California CIDP and more tropical at that. That said,  it's still, just as the CIDP,  a 30 year grow.

 

 

6 hours ago, GottmitAlex said:

Remember folks, there's also the Mexicali Coco.. and from what I have read, it is still alive beneath the power lines.....

On 1/8/2019, 2:11:18, pietropuccio said:

Reggio).

On 1/8/2019, 2:11:18, pietropuccio said:

 

On 1/8/2019, 2:11:18, pietropuccio said:

 

Great Work Alex. You really care about your plants

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Cristóbal
On 1/13/2019 at 8:14 AM, veeman55 said:

Is there a picture of it somewhere? It must be cool.

Mexicali baja is very hot in summer 110s/120s/130s similar to deathvalley and mideast heat like san luis rio colorado just accross into mainland mexico Sonoran desert

They can get occasional frost too but thats desert weather for you but its a a hot zone below sea level.

I did a experiment with cocos nucifera in Mexicali in 2006 or 2007 .

The summer is too hot there. It was dead at the end of September, it lasted about 6 months.

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veeman55

The coconut in southern Italy is still alive

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veeman55

The coconut in southern Italy is still alive and in great shape. Healthy green leaves

20190222_124923.jpg

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Oppido
1 hour ago, veeman55 said:

La noce di cocco nel sud Italia è ancora viva e in gran forma. Foglie verdi sane

20190222_124923.jpg

Of course it is fine, it is covered by a greenhouse with a heating cable, thanks that is

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veeman55

The coconut in southern Italy is still alive and in great shape. Healthy green leaves

No heating cable only plastic cover to keep the heat in

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Oppido
2 hours ago, veeman55 said:

The coconut in southern Italy is still alive and in great shape. Healthy green leaves

No heating cable only plastic cover to keep the heat in

I do not think there is only the plastic cover. I have been following the Italian forum for a long time even though I have not registered it, and the same person who has grown the coconut says that he has put a system that heats the greenhouse when the temperature drops below 20 ° C

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GottmitAlex
11 hours ago, veeman55 said:

The coconut in southern Italy is still alive and in great shape. Healthy green leaves

20190222_124923.jpg

I see no issue with placing plastic around the coconut to protect it. (Making sure the plastic does not touch the coconut). However, looking at the leaf/stem structure of the coconut, one can tell it is thin and scrawny. I wish the best for it. But if it does not make it, ask your friend to look for the thickest stemmed coco he can acquire in southern Italy. Remember, it's not about height, it's about girth. 

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veeman55
7 hours ago, GottmitAlex said:

I see no issue with placing plastic around the coconut to protect it. (Making sure the plastic does not touch the coconut). However, looking at the leaf/stem structure of the coconut, one can tell it is thin and scrawny. I wish the best for it. But if it does not make it, ask your friend to look for the thickest stemmed coco he can acquire in southern Italy. Remember, it's not about height, it's about girth. 

Girth is alot thicker than it was before..it keeps putting out a new leaf every couple weeks. Theres no yellowing or sign of wilting according to my freind. He only sees it every couple weeks. 

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veeman55
9 hours ago, GottmitAlex said:

Hi need advice on watering the coconut..the soil around the coconut is dry now since he poked holes in the small plastic enclosure to prevent condensation and overheating that was happening before.

Any reccomendation would be helpful.

Thanks

 

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veeman55

Hi need advice on watering the coconut..the soil around the coconut is dry now since he poked holes in the small plastic enclosure to prevent condensation and overheating that was happening before.

Any reccomendation would be helpful.

Thanks

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veeman55

He just watered around the enclosure today. 

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GottmitAlex
4 hours ago, veeman55 said:

Hi need advice on watering the coconut..the soil around the coconut is dry now since he poked holes in the small plastic enclosure to prevent condensation and overheating that was happening before.

Any reccomendation would be helpful.

Thanks

In my limited experience, watering the inside of the enclosure during cold spells will rot the roots. Especially if you leave the enclosure in place. The excess water will not evaporate because the sunlight wont heat up the soil.  I've lost two coconuts because of that. (I tented them completely during winter and watered them once a week)

I would suggest watering it in the morning without the enclosure and wait till evening to setup the enclosure again. 

 

Edited by GottmitAlex

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GottmitAlex
6 hours ago, veeman55 said:

Girth is alot thicker than it was before..it keeps putting out a new leaf every couple weeks. Theres no yellowing or sign of wilting according to my freind. He only sees it every couple weeks. 

Based on the pictures, I would suggest to your friend to take the rocks out of the enclosure in order for the sun to heat up the topsoil.

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veeman55
2 hours ago, GottmitAlex said:

In my limited experience, watering the inside of the enclosure during cold spells will rot the roots. Especially if you leave the enclosure in place. The excess water will not evaporate because the sunlight wont heat up the soil.  I've lost two coconuts because of that. (I tented them completely during winter and watered them once a week)

I would suggest watering it in the morning without the enclosure and wait till evening to setup the enclosure again. 

 

He watererd on the outside of the enclosure

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veeman55
On 2/27/2019 at 1:27 AM, Oppido said:

I do not think there is only the plastic cover. I have been following the Italian forum for a long time even though I have not registered it, and the same person who has grown the coconut says that he has put a system that heats the greenhouse when the temperature drops below 20 ° C

Yes you are right there is some kind of heating apparatus in there

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veeman55

@GottmitAlex

He just messaged me

Thecoconut is in fair condition, but as you can see carefully looking at the last photo posted currently. The coconut to derive its energy you can count on two large leaves in good condition plus the perfect central jet. The others are in decline, it can not be ruled out because of the lack of light or perhaps of a fungal attack in any case now no longer active or as suspicious the roots of the nearby American Vine are suffocating it. Sunday I will do an accurate inspection.

He beleives that proximity vine is taking away its energy being too close to the cocos roots.

What can you deduce from this?

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Oppido

I want to point out to Alicante an incredible climate in Spain:

Cartagena

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Alicante
On 2/27/2019 at 4:43 AM, veeman55 said:

The coconut in southern Italy is still alive and in great shape. Healthy green leaves

No heating cable only plastic cover to keep the heat in

That coconut has been surely protected with a lot of artificial heat... Reggio's official highs for January and February 2019 are not available for a strange reason but Messina's one are, and Messina is almost identical to Reggio during winters, even with milder nights.

This year had a cool, damp winter in much of southern Italy. January was even quite cloudy, with just 120 sunshine hours and 178mm of rain:

http://www.meteociel.fr/climatologie/villes.php?code=16420&mois=1&annee=2019

13.3°C average high in January 2019.

 

http://www.meteociel.fr/climatologie/villes.php?code=16420&mois=2&annee=2019

14.9°C average high in February 2019. 

Even if that microclimate is as warm as it can be, it wouldn't be more than +1°C than the official station from Messina.

Thriving discarded, but just surviving with average highs of 13-15 in 2 months with so many rainy, damp, chilly days having highs under 14°C? That's completely sci-fi. It's suitable for papayas although, or bananas. But not for coconuts, by a long shot.

As I said before together with many others, it will grow with winter protection and additional heating, things provided already for the plant. But with protection and artificial heat, it won't break any northernmost record, which is still at Porto Santo at 33°N

 

On 2/27/2019 at 7:27 AM, Oppido said:

I do not think there is only the plastic cover. I have been following the Italian forum for a long time even though I have not registered it, and the same person who has grown the coconut says that he has put a system that heats the greenhouse when the temperature drops below 20 ° C

I agree.

Edited by Alicante

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Alicante
5 hours ago, Oppido said:

I want to point out to Alicante an incredible climate in Spain:

Cartagena

I know that area is quite warm but those numbers seem a bit too warm in my opinion. Probably, the annual average in Cartagena would be about 19°C. 

According to Murcia's regional weather agency, in their Atlas, the warmest annual average is of 20°C located in Águilas, a coastal town. Still quite impressive for a place at 37° 30' N, the source is in the regional page and the map.

_zoom_El%20clima_Picture9.jpg

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veeman55
5 hours ago, Alicante said:

I know that area is quite warm but those numbers seem a bit too warm in my opinion. Probably, the annual average in Cartagena would be about 19°C. 

According to Murcia's regional weather agency, in their Atlas, the warmest annual average is of 20°C located in Águilas, a coastal town. Still quite impressive for a place at 37° 30' N, the source is in the regional page and the map.

_zoom_El%20clima_Picture9.jpg

In your opinion which is the warmest place in Winter in all of continental spain? Carboneras, Adra, Motril Almunecar, Nijar, Torrox, Cabo de gata.

The average minimums south of Reggio city are higher than most places in spain sicily or cyprus.

Ever since The historical records were taken since 1908 from Aragon Castle at Reggio center has never went below 1c. It is truly a frost free location.

Jan 5 2019 lowest recorded temp according to official aeronautical station was 4c not 1c according to other sources..by the way the coconut is not in reggio city but farther south but still considered reggio region in an area warmer and drier than the city

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Oppido
3 hours ago, veeman55 said:

Secondo te qual è il posto più caldo d'inverno in tutta la Spagna continentale? Carboneras, Adra, Motril Almunecar, Nijar, Torrox, Cabo de gata.

I minimi medi a sud di Reggio sono più alti della maggior parte dei posti in spagna, in sicilia o a Cipro.

Da allora i documenti storici sono stati presi dal 1908 dal castello di Aragon al centro di Reggio, non è mai andato sotto l'1c. È veramente una posizione senza ghiaccio.

Il 5 gennaio 2019 la temperatura minima registrata secondo la stazione aeronautica ufficiale era 4c non 1c secondo altre fonti ... dal modo in cui la noce di cocco non è nella città di reggio ma più a sud ma ancora considerata regione reggio in un'area più calda e secca della città

no Veeman, I have to contradict you this time. It is impossible that Reggio did not fall below 3 degrees because it has snowed here, while here it has dropped to 3.8 ° and has only made graupel, and when it is snow it is impossible that it is hotter than the graupel. I already told you this year Reggio dropped between 2.9 ° of Pentimele and 1.7 ° of the center passing through 1.9 ° in Catona. While Reggio South fell to 2.1 °. In the Reggio area (from Villa S.Giovanni to Bova) everywhere it snowed, only from Tropea / Pizzo up to Scilla and passing through the Piana di Gioia Tauro did only graupel (even if there is an exceptional microclimate here)

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veeman55
14 hours ago, Alicante said:

Present condition of coconut..any opinions of the brown spots on older leaves? Fungus that can be treated with anything.

Main center shoot bright green no issues

P_20190303_094555_1_1.jpg

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Alicante
10 hours ago, veeman55 said:

In your opinion which is the warmest place in Winter in all of continental spain? Carboneras, Adra, Motril Almunecar, Nijar, Torrox, Cabo de gata.

The average minimums south of Reggio city are higher than most places in spain sicily or cyprus.

Ever since The historical records were taken since 1908 from Aragon Castle at Reggio center has never went below 1c. It is truly a frost free location.

Jan 5 2019 lowest recorded temp according to official aeronautical station was 4c not 1c according to other sources..by the way the coconut is not in reggio city but farther south but still considered reggio region in an area warmer and drier than the city

You still don't understand that coconuts need warmth and not mild lows, mate. 

Reggio has no winter warmth, it has mild lows, but quite chilly highs. Too cool for a coconut.

Even Catania has more chances than Reggio, being the winter highs warmer. I am not comparing Reggio to anywhere, I just answered Oppido. As far as lows go, Tarifa, Spain or Ponta Delgada, Portugal have much warmer winter lows than Reggio but both have 0 coconut chances. Just to show you why highs are important, like they grow in Mexicali, but not lows! 

Same goes for Corona, California. It's not needed to be a frost free zone. It's not needed to have very mild lows. But proper natural winter warmth! And Reggio clearly lacks of that. January 2019 had average highs of 13°C in Reggio's area, that's way too cold for a coconut. They died even in Sydney when transplanted from the Botanical Gardens, and Sydney is much warmer than Reggio during the winter daytime.

This seems to be an endless discussion, I told you already this before, and others did too, putting as an example the SoCal coconuts, but you put that before the warm days. A coconut prefers 20-21 highs with 6-7 lows, it will get some damage but survive. But of course rather than 13-14 highs and 8-9 lows, where it would die in the 1st winter without protection.

Regards, have luck!

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