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veeman55

Coconut Palm Experiment in Southern Italy

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veeman55
1 hour ago, maesy said:

@veeman55 if you are interested and if there is a way how to do it, I would offer you the philippine coconut I posted yesterday.
:rolleyes::D

Hindi ko alam. I don't know.

You could have it for free. Only the shipping might be a challange and difficult to do.

Salaamat.

A coconut seed just sprouted?

 

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veeman55
2 hours ago, Alicante said:

Exactly. Valencia at 39°N can grow mangoes, papayas, litchis, avocados, kumquats... and many more subtropical & tropical fruits too. But a coconut is a no-no.

Madeira, Bermuda, Texas or Florida are much warmer than Reggio di Calabria lol, while Corona, CA has much warmer winter highs with frequent Dec-Jan days with highs above 25°C, that's unthinkable in Calabria. Also southern Cyprus has quite warmer winter highs,  so does coastal southern Spain, but a coconut here is a no-no. The soil temps and sun hours also count.

Veeman, you don't understand that it doesn't matter if you get no freezes (although there are no freeze-less places in Calabria at least looking at official records, which are the best source to talk about a climate). A coconut needs warm temperatures, many winter days above 20°C... while Reggio has high averages slightly surpassing 15°C in Jan-Feb. And a car thermometer is not trustworthy, neither is the same 200ft as 400m. 

In Calabria, cities on the coast or few kms inland at low-mid altitude (200-300m) will get lows of -3°C (coast) and up to -5°C as I posted the forecast above. There is no way even mangoes can grow in these places, just around low lying areas of Reggio. Reggio itself will get this week 7-8°C highs with 3°C lows and rainy weather, many exotic species will have some kind of damage because the prolonged time without warm temps, rather than lows sub zero. A coconut prefers (and lives) in 21/5 winters with occasional light freezes but it doesn't live in 15/8 winters with no freezes in 20 years. The best example is Corona, California. 

 

Valencia isnt frost free and the Paphos coconut is still alive after two years after being protected at birth.

South of Reggio Pellaro is even warmer and frost free.

Theres big mango plantations in Catona and a private one even farther north in tropea region which ive seen in person plus large unprotected commercial Cherimoya plantations north of Reggio.

I know the coconut needs warmer weather but im just letting you know how mild it is in the Reggio region

We can argue back and forth till the chickens come home and not conclude anything but when this coconut survives this winter we shall talk more.

So far it hasnt skipped a beat and it keeps putting out new leaves from what ive been told and seen.

The test will be how it reacts with this upcoming cold snap supposed to hit next few days but the straits of messina and siculo/calabro mountains seems to deflect any cold coming its way from e w ne or nw

Im grateful for everyones past suggestions on heating canopy and salt

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maesy
5 hours ago, veeman55 said:

Salaamat.

A coconut seed just sprouted?

 

Yes I picked it up in the forest of my wifes relative.
There are sprouted nuts lying around everywhere.

They just fall down and start growing.

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Alicante

Veeman, you still don't understand the point which others (as well as me) said to you.

A coconut is a 9b plant, it can get freezes with no problem, as long as it gets warmth the days after that. 

I know Valencia is not frost-less but it has quite warmer winter highs than Reggio, so that's a bigger potential for a coconut but it still won't do it more than a couple of winters without protection.

As Meg said, prepare the poor plant with heavy protection because the upcoming weather in your area is very chilly. And yes you are growing it with protection so does maesy in Switzerland. 

Just as you said and I agree, Reggio is exceptionally mild but that's all, mild. That is good for some kind of plants, but bad for others such as the coconut. A coconut doesn't want 15°C average highs. A coconut wants warmth, it can even take freezes if it gets sunny, warmy days. Reggio is mild, which is no winter warmth so it doesn't matter at all if it get freezes or not. Btw, Reggio recorded 0°C in 2014...

Paphos is quite warmer than Reggio during winters. So is Corona. So is slightly more southern Sicily. 

The plant reaction will be as heavy as you protect it. Now it has protection which is a bit not enough for the upcoming very chilly days in Reggio. I said it before, protect it for 4 months and you can have it outside for 8 months, but that's all. Reggio is not warm enough (not even in the mildest microclimates) to hold a coconut all year round without protection and you proved it since your friend already protected the coconut. 

I wish you luck in your experiment but for that little plant's sake, protect it a bit more this upcoming week. Have a nice day!

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pietropuccio
8 hours ago, veeman55 said:

Nice but I see a wall and other vegetative protection in those sicilian cavendishes

The wall is north-facing!

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GottmitAlex
1 hour ago, Alicante said:

Just as you said and I agree, Reggio is exceptionally mild but that's all, mild. That is good for some kind of plants, but bad for others such as the coconut. A coconut doesn't want 15°C average highs. A coconut wants warmth, it can even take freezes if it gets sunny, warmy days. Reggio is mild, which is no winter warmth so it doesn't matter at all if it get freezes or not. Btw, Reggio recorded 0°C in 2014...

You know what Corona, CA recorded back in February 2018? 0C

 Dec 29th of 2014?  The  1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th of  January 2015?

Dec 15 &17th of 2015? January 1st and Feb 2nd of 2016?  Dec 18th, 19th & 28th 2017? Among many other "cool" California dates...

Take a wild guess. But I figure you already know. 

I guess all I'm trying to say is that we are better off trying to encourage and support folks who endeavor into (reasonable) zone pushing instead of just handing over statistics, which in the end of the day, mean nothing (reasonably speaking) and can only discourage. Heck, had I researched coconuts before accidentally purchasing one back in 2016 and still believe they could grow in my region, I would have opted for date palms.  

 

April 14, 2018:

http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/51903-corona-ca-coconut/&do=findComment&comment=843689

 

 

gute Nacht.

 

 

Edited by GottmitAlex

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Alicante
1 hour ago, GottmitAlex said:

You know what Corona, CA recorded back in February 2018? 0C

 Dec 29th of 2014?  The  1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th of  January 2015?

Dec 15 &17th of 2015? January 1st and Feb 2nd of 2016?  Dec 18th, 19th & 28th 2017? Among many other "cool" California dates...

Take a wild guess. But I figure you already know. 

I guess all I'm trying to say is that we are better off trying to encourage and support folks who endeavor into (reasonable) zone pushing instead of just handing over statistics, which in the end of the day, mean nothing (reasonably speaking) and can only discourage. Heck, had I researched coconuts before accidentally purchasing one back in 2016 and still believe they could grow in my region, I would have opted for date palms.  

 

April 14, 2018:

http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/51903-corona-ca-coconut/&do=findComment&comment=843689

 

 

gute Nacht.

 

 

I fully agree with you. Basically this is what I was saying to Veeman. Coconuts can handle freezes as long as they get real warmth. So it is more likely to grow in a climate with constant +21°C winter highs and cool lows with sporadical light freezes as it's a 9b plant after all, than in one with 15°C highs and mild lows. 

In Corona is not strange at all to see winter highs surpassing +26°C, it has even recorded 34°C in January. 26-27°C in winter in Reggio di Calabria sounds like sci-fi, while in Corona is not rare at all. Also Corona is a lot further south, sun angles are stronger during winter. 

For instance, your zone is a pusher, as it's Perth or southern Cyprus to put a couple of examples. But this is not the case. For example, you have quite warmer avg winter highs than 15/16°C during Dec-Feb. Yesterday your current yard temperature was 21°C and that's normal in SoCal. While very rare in this fella's place. 

But well, I just encourage him to protect the palm more because the weather upcoming there is not a joke, rainy/cloudy days with highs under 10°C and many days not even surpassing 13°C equal to sayonara for a coconut. It was much better if the low was -2°C but the high was sunny with +20°C... If he wants to suceed in this tryout he should put more protection, that's my point, because if it didn't work in climates with considerably warmer winter highs (what a coconut wants) then... btw. I wish you luck, Veeman!

Edited by Alicante
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veeman55
On 1/3/2019, 4:48:08, GottmitAlex said:

You know what Corona, CA recorded back in February 2018? 0C

 Dec 29th of 2014?  The  1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th of  January 2015?

Dec 15 &17th of 2015? January 1st and Feb 2nd of 2016?  Dec 18th, 19th & 28th 2017? Among many other "cool" California dates...

Take a wild guess. But I figure you already know. 

I guess all I'm trying to say is that we are better off trying to encourage and support folks who endeavor into (reasonable) zone pushing instead of just handing over statistics, which in the end of the day, mean nothing (reasonably speaking) and can only discourage. Heck, had I researched coconuts before accidentally purchasing one back in 2016 and still believe they could grow in my region, I would have opted for date palms.  

 

April 14, 2018:

http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/51903-corona-ca-coconut/&do=findComment&comment=843689

 

 

gute Nacht.

 

 

Right and Thanks @ Alex

Corona can get below freezing too and to see that snow isnt uncommon. That weather would kill cherimoyas and Cavendish bananas

 

Whats interesting the cherimoya plantations got destroyed in southern cali few years back by frost yet in Reggio area theyve been flourishing uninhibited by no real frost since the 1800s.

 

Ill challenge Alicantes assertion that Valencias weather is better than Reggio

Why arent there any Cherimoyas Bergamots Cavendishes Coffee Trees Pitayas and Papayas flourishing therewithout any protection in Valencia? Whats the Annual average in Valencia? 17.xx?

Why do the best bergamots on the planet only grow in Reggio and not in Valencia or anywhere else in espana?

I highly doubt that if it snows overnight and below zero in corona it was 26 during that same day. In key west there was a cold spell that last 3-4 days where the temps didnt rise above 50 even tho they didnt go below zero they werent in the 70s either during the day during that spell.  So we cant go with stats alone.

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veeman55

Weather Stats are meant to be challenged by actual plants surviving. Just like the Corona Tijuana and Paphos coconut  is living proof that goes against the experts and assertians. Soon the Reggio coconut will be added to that exception. Thanks for all your support.

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Alicante

I don't know how many people will need to say to you that growing a kind of fruit doesn't mean you can grow coconuts.

Corona or Tijuana have much, much warmer winter highs than you have. Paphos considerably too. :interesting:

Your average highs from December to March : 16.1ºC

Corona average highs from average highs from December to March : 20.5ºC

Tijuana average highs from December to March : 20.7ºC

Paphos average highs from December to March :17.8ºC 

Key West doesn't even need to be mentioned. I don't know why you constantly compare your place to much warmer places. You also said that you're warmer than Malta or Lampedusa "which get terrible winter weather" while Reggio doesn't (in the 1st page). Yet this is your weather for this week. Looks tropical, yeah... smh.

ZuTTVfn.png

 

Edited by Alicante
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Alicante
1 hour ago, veeman55 said:

Right and Thanks @ Alex

Corona can get below freezing too and to see that snow isnt uncommon. That weather would kill cherimoyas and Cavendish bananas

 

Whats interesting the cherimoya plantations got destroyed in southern cali few years back by frost yet in Reggio area theyve been flourishing uninhibited by no real frost since the 1800s.

 

Ill challenge Alicantes assertion that Valencias weather is better than Reggio

Why arent there any Cherimoyas Bergamots Cavendishes Coffee Trees Pitayas and Papayas flourishing therewithout any protection in Valencia? Whats the Annual average in Valencia? 17.xx?

Why do the best bergamots on the planet only grow in Reggio and not in Valencia or anywhere else in espana?

I highly doubt that if it snows overnight and below zero in corona it was 26 during that same day. In key west there was a cold spell that last 3-4 days where the temps didnt rise above 50 even tho they didnt go below zero they werent in the 70s either during the day during that spell.  So we cant go with stats alone.

- Cherimoyas can handle light frosts. But any proofs for this? As official stats show how nowhere in Calabria is freeze-less, since Reggio got various freezes since 1950, the last one in December of 2014. Here is the proof:  Stazione meteorologica di Reggio di Calabria. Temperature estreme mensili dal 1951 ad oggi.

But again, a coconut is a 9b plant. It's hard to understand? A coconut can handle freezes as long as it handles warmth. Reggio has no winter warmth. Full stop.

- Valencia's average annual temperature is 18.4ºC which +0.1ºC warmer than Reggio's 18.3ºC, while it's located further north.. (39ºN / 38ºN)

- And yes, Valencia can grow (and grows) all of those plants you mentioned, and many more too. Any pic of Roystoneas in Reggio? Because I have posted in the past various pics of healthy, unprotected trunking Roystoneas in Valencia... Bergamots are something typical of Calabria, there isn't much interest in growing them outside, since they are used for oil. Yet you can see them growing even in 41ºN in Barcelona, in the Parque del Laberinto de l'Horta, Barcelona. Google it.

As for international agriculture, in the FAO, only Spain appears as the only continental European country exporting in large scale mangoes, cherimoyas and avocados from Europe. If we don't count overseas territories, sure, since the bananas also grow in the Portuguese islands. I know these fruits also grow in Portugal, Italy, Greece, Croatia. But I mean for large scale export, only Spain appears. I know it's off topic, but you said it can't. Do you want the links proving this?

Valencia for example, the climate you like to criticize a lot, has an high average of 17.5ºC from Dec-Mar, considerably warmer than the 16.1ºC you get in Reggio. In such low temps, 1-2ºC are crucial for a coconut, that's why it can grow under special circumstances in Paphos, which is also much further south and gets stronger winter sun. Reggio lacks warmth, and data confirms it. You can't deny that, and yes, Corona is much warmer, no matter they get occasional freezes.

- Pietro shown you how he also grows those small bananas in Sicily (after you said they can only grow in Reggio) but you replied him "they're protected" while they're not. And again, your friend's coconut is already protected (said by yourself) which is already against what you say, so you prove that a coconut can't grow unprotected nowhere in Calabria. And a coconut is a 9b plant, google it. It has survived even -6ºC freezes in Florida...but your region doesn't get, not even by closely, the winter warmth central Florida gets. Reggio recorded freezes various times since 1950 as the official station shows, but let's say it's a freeze-less zone.

Still, it can't grow any coconut for the lack of winter warmth. Cherimoyas yes, Coconuts no. If a winter has 18ºC highs but accompanied by 13-14ºC lows that will help. Like in Porto Santo. But that's not your case since Reggio in January has 15ºC highs and 8ºC lows! And rainy/cloudy days with highs under 10ºC are not uncommon as we're seeing during this week. And mate, Tijuana and Corona are much warmer than Reggio, comparing your place to these is quite pointless...

- Reggio is not the warmest place in Europe, it's not even the warmest place in Italy. Parts of Sicily and Lampedusa beat it. Can't deny that, official data is there. Even I do have more chances than you, since my winter lows are about 1ºC lower but my highs about 2ºC warmer than yours. And still, it would be a waste of time and a poor plant suffering, unless if I cover it to protect it. And I get quite more sunshine hours than Reggio does during winters, since my rainy season is Autumn.

Reggio isn't freeze-less as well. Malta is freeze-less (where you say they have "terrible winter weather") and has more opportunities to grow one than you have. But as said before, Coconuts can handle freezes, since it's a 9b plant and it even survived to -6ºC, but they prefer warm highs in winter, even if they get cool lows.

Edited by Alicante
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sandgroper

I admire your optimism but don't like your chances, your weather is just too cold for coconuts, at least not unless they are well protected and provided with artificial heat. There's a reason Europe doesn't look like Queensland. Good luck anyway mate, I'd love to be surprised by your results and I really hope I will be but I am very sceptical.

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GottmitAlex

 

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Xenon

Cherimoya doesn't grow well in prime coconut growing areas. It's originally from the Andes and doesn't like the heat of the lowland tropics. Even Miami is too warm. 

The record low in Brownsville, Texas is 12F/-11C and yet today there are large fruiting coconuts growing out in the open completely exposed. Maybe your area is milder but you certainly don't have the winter time warmth of areas of much lower latitude, not to mention the very long tropical summers. 

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maesy
On 3.1.2019, 00:45:26, veeman55 said:

 

The first thing that causes problems to coconut palms might be too cool ground temperatures. While too cold days or even frost causes damaged fronds but the palm will regrow as soon as days are warm enough, too many days or even weeks with cold soil will cause the roots to start dying off. I dont know where is the limit, when they start suffering. There must be a soil temperature where they should not be exposed for too long.

In your case veeman I would now start measuring the soil temperatur during the winter to have an indication what works or gives problems.

 

Edited by maesy
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dalmatiansoap

It will do fine as long as it feeds from nut

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Alicante
6 hours ago, Xenon said:

Cherimoya doesn't grow well in prime coconut growing areas. It's originally from the Andes and doesn't like the heat of the lowland tropics. Even Miami is too warm. 

The record low in Brownsville, Texas is 12F/-11C and yet today there are large fruiting coconuts growing out in the open completely exposed. Maybe your area is milder but you certainly don't have the winter time warmth of areas of much lower latitude, not to mention the very long tropical summers. 

You're right, I did some research on Cherimoyas and they grow in very high areas in South America, the fruit is subtropical. They don't like tropical / very warm climates. Their best growth in their natural areas is at places with 16-17ºC annual means and lots of rain (well, can be solved with irrigation in cultivation areas) and humidity under 80%. They will grow at their optimal form in places with 16-19ºC annual means and mild winters. They can take -3/-4ºC without major damage.

Wow, I heard about -6 almost touching -7ºC surviving coconuts in FL but didn't about -11ºC. Some pages talk about being as hardy as 9a. So if it's really warm during winters like in Brownsville, it can be even a 8b plant! Brownsville is fully tropical for 9 months a year, so coconuts surely get their amount of warmth. :)

2 hours ago, dalmatiansoap said:

It will do fine as long as it feeds from nut

True! :lol:

Edited by Alicante

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Xenon
1 hour ago, Alicante said:

 

Wow, I heard about -6 almost touching -7ºC surviving coconuts in FL but didn't about -11ºC. Some pages talk about being as hardy as 9a. So if it's really warm during winters like in Brownsville, it can be even a 8b plant! Brownsville is fully tropical for 9 months a year, so coconuts surely get their amount of warmth. :)

True! :lol:

Oh no, there's no surviving -11C haha. Point was that it is mild enough in between these cold events to grow a coconut to fruiting maturity. Coconuts are definitely a zone 10 plant. Coconuts (very mature and established ones) surviving a one time event of -6C in areas that are 10 a/b 99% of the time does not make them a 9b plant. Most coconuts will die at these twmperatures, the stragglers that survive are the exception. Marginal in the warmest parts of 9b (i.e most winters are zone 10) in very warm subtropical climates like central Fl/s. Texas. 

Edited by Xenon
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Stelios

Hi Vee. I wish all the best for your friend's coconut and it will be great to see the updates of this palm. Your friend knows his special microclimate better than us so why not. But I agree with the others. Your friend needs to protect this palm for as long as he can. Also it has to be planted in almost pure sand in a full winter sun position (this is a Holland grown so it could tricky), protected from any cold wind if you want to increase your temps. Growing some tropical fruits does not mean that is possible to grow coconuts. My almost 10 year old palm is going now through its 7th winter in the ground and this is the first year that I decided to let it less protected as you can see in my topic:

I don't know if Paphos has one of the warmest microclimates here in the Mediterranean but I agree with Alicante that the more south you are the sun is stronger. I love coconuts like many of us here so I wanted to try this experiment without to think that my climate is tropical or the best for it. I just did the extra tricks to increase the chances and we'll see how long it will make it. 

This is a rainy winter and it could be a problem for my palm. December was 297% of the average rainfall here in Paphos and the first 4 days of January is already 54%. If it will not make it I will find more beccariophoenix to plant. There are other beautiful palms that I can grow here so I can still create a tropical looking garden. Just came back yesterday from Malta and I took this photo today. Still looks alive!

 

2019-01-05 08.44.37.jpg

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RedRabbit
7 hours ago, Xenon said:

Oh no, there's no surviving -11C haha. Point was that it is mild enough in between these cold events to grow a coconut to fruiting maturity. Coconuts are definitely a zone 10 plant. Coconuts (very mature and established ones) surviving a one time event of -6C in areas that are 10 a/b 99% of the time does not make them a 9b plant. Most coconuts will die at these twmperatures, the stragglers that survive are the exception. Marginal in the warmest parts of 9b (i.e most winters are zone 10) in very warm subtropical climates like central Fl/s. Texas. 

Yep, they’re really not cold tolerant. I’ve seen them take a lot of damage right at 0c. Lots died last winter from -2c and I’m thinking 100% mortality rate would be somewhere around -5c (at least in FL.) 

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GottmitAlex
2 hours ago, RedRabbit said:

Yep, they’re really not cold tolerant. I’ve seen them take a lot of damage right at 0c. Lots died last winter from -2c and I’m thinking 100% mortality rate would be somewhere around -5c (at least in FL.) 

I beg to differ. 9b+ cold tolerant: They are. Of course. With adequate protection. Same goes for 10b crops.  Protection is key.

gute Nacht

 

Edited by GottmitAlex

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Xenon
15 minutes ago, GottmitAlex said:

I beg to differ. 9b+ cold tolerant: They are. Of course. With adequate protection. Same goes for 10b crops.  Protection is key.

gute Nacht

 

How are they cold tolerant if you have to protect them?:blink:

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Xenon
11 hours ago, Alicante said:

Wow, I heard about -6 almost touching -7ºC surviving coconuts in FL

Do you have a source for this? There's a thread about coconut in Cocoa Beach surviving -4 to -4.5C, but -6 or -7C seems to be really pushing it.  Seems like the main cutoff for survival on the east coast of FL after the '89  freeze was coastal Martin/Palm Beach county and maybe the barrier island portion of St. Lucie county where the low was closer to -3C. 

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Alicante
47 minutes ago, Xenon said:

Do you have a source for this? There's a thread about coconut in Cocoa Beach surviving -4 to -4.5C, but -6 or -7C seems to be really pushing it.  Seems like the main cutoff for survival on the east coast of FL after the '89  freeze was coastal Martin/Palm Beach county and maybe the barrier island portion of St. Lucie county where the low was closer to -3C. 

Hello! Bad Fahrenheit conversion for me, it's up to -5 what I've read here in PalmTalk then (Cocoa Beach) but in another website called Florida Palm Trees they say they can get up to 20F (-6.7°C) making it a 9a/9b plant.

http://www.florida-palm-trees.com/coconut-palm-tree/

Not sure about this, I know the coconuts can handle light freezes without any major problem in warm winter climates but maybe -6 /-7 is too much. I also agree -3 seems more realistic!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cocoa_Beach,_Florida

This page says that Cocoa Beach's recorded low is 17F (-8°C) but who knows when they hit that, maybe it was +50 years ago... if this temperature is accurate, sure, since the source is The Weather Channel. I have seen many pics of coconuts just searching "Cocoa Beach coconuts" but they look rather young specimens. As a bit of off topic, I am heavily surprised how it got that cold in a place like Cocoa Beach. Seriously? That place looks tropical for 8-9 months a year when it comes to climate averages and rain, and it's latitude is 28°N!

Edited by Alicante

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Zeeth
1 hour ago, Alicante said:

Hello! Bad Fahrenheit conversion for me, it's up to -5 what I've read here in PalmTalk then (Cocoa Beach) but in another website called Florida Palm Trees they say they can get up to 20F (-6.7°C) making it a 9a/9b plant.

http://www.florida-palm-trees.com/coconut-palm-tree/

Not sure about this, I know the coconuts can handle light freezes without any major problem in warm winter climates but maybe -6 /-7 is too much. I also agree -3 seems more realistic!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cocoa_Beach,_Florida

This page says that Cocoa Beach's recorded low is 17F (-8°C) but who knows when they hit that, maybe it was +50 years ago... if this temperature is accurate, sure, since the source is The Weather Channel. I have seen many pics of coconuts just searching "Cocoa Beach coconuts" but they look rather young specimens. As a bit of off topic, I am heavily surprised how it got that cold in a place like Cocoa Beach. Seriously? That place looks tropical for 8-9 months a year when it comes to climate averages and rain, and it's latitude is 28°N!

The thing that you have to realize about Florida climate is that the barrier island mesoclimate can be quite strong. As an example, take Palm Bay in Brevard county vs. Patrick Air Force Base on the Barrier Island. Palm Bay recorded 17˚ F (-8.3˚C) in 1989, whereas the weather station on Patrick Air Force Base was 24˚F (-4.4˚C). There's a similar pattern on the west coast of Florida, where our coldest winter was 1962, where the mainland got down to 20˚ F (-6.7˚C), but Anna Maria Island had a low of 26˚ F (3.3˚C) in that year. Coconuts will still die on the barrier islands in these freezes, but survival is possible, whereas it's much less likely on the mainland. Foliage changes quite drastically when you leave the island and go inland. 

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veeman55

Update on the calabrian coconut. Its still alive and well despite all the hoopla with meteo websites forecasting doom and gloom for southern calabria which was supposed to be one of the worst ever.

However this cold blast from siberia hit most of sicily hard with killer frosts for tropicals even at southermost part of the island in gela(frost free zone) and pozzallo that damaged or killed off banana trees even papayas froze in unheated greenhouses. Light Snow in Palermo Messina and Taormina and most of northern coast.

Papayas Mangoes and Bananas intact no cold damage whatsoever in Reggio area

South East reggio coast province did get hit with low temps close to zero tho. Central calabria got cold too except for vibo coastal area.

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veeman55
On 1/5/2019, 1:46:50, Stelios said:

Hi Vee. I wish all the best for your friend's coconut and it will be great to see the updates of this palm. Your friend knows his special microclimate better than us so why not. But I agree with the others. Your friend needs to protect this palm for as long as he can. Also it has to be planted in almost pure sand in a full winter sun position (this is a Holland grown so it could tricky), protected from any cold wind if you want to increase your temps. Growing some tropical fruits does not mean that is possible to grow coconuts. My almost 10 year old palm is going now through its 7th winter in the ground and this is the first year that I decided to let it less protected as you can see in my topic:

I don't know if Paphos has one of the warmest microclimates here in the Mediterranean but I agree with Alicante that the more south you are the sun is stronger. I love coconuts like many of us here so I wanted to try this experiment without to think that my climate is tropical or the best for it. I just did the extra tricks to increase the chances and we'll see how long it will make it. 

This is a rainy winter and it could be a problem for my palm. December was 297% of the average rainfall here in Paphos and the first 4 days of January is already 54%. If it will not make it I will find more beccariophoenix to plant. There are other beautiful palms that I can grow here so I can still create a tropical looking garden. Just came back yesterday from Malta and I took this photo today. Still looks alive!

 

2019-01-05 08.44.37.jpg

Ephcharisto Stelios. Great Job on your Coconut. 10 years is a record for the Mediterranean.

You might get a siberian cold front that recently hit italy and greece soon so just beware it may be moving your way.

True about sun. Your at 35 degrees latitude and southern calabria at 38. But latitude isnt always the main factor.

Look at the date palm jungles and sensitive tropicals way up 40 degree latitudes? in the rivieras thanks to the alps shutting down the cold winds.

Or the lemon and orange groves with cacti and palm trees way up north in the italian alpine lakes with constant fohn winds. They are basking in 60f 16c sunshine today.

But for coconuts i agree we need warm highs thats a given and not too low lows.

Curious whats the lowest temperatures youve had in Paphos and Limassol?

What experimental tropical plantations Do they supposedly have in Phassouri? I read about that place before the internet came along years ago and it intrigued me to know what because the books never mentioned what they grew.

Were you ever able to grow Pineapple/Ananas in your garden outdoors?

Many thanks and congratulations Stelios. Thaxxi

 

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PalmatierMeg

Alex, I believe you live in a very dry climate? Exposure to very dry cold air may give a coconut palm an extra degree or so of hardiness. In FL our winters tend to be very dry during cold spells. However, wet or rainy cold can be lethal. And, once again, what so many people are missing/ignoring is the concept of "cool sensitivity", i.e., look at @Alicante's weather chart of rain, highs in teens C and lows under 10C for days. People also forget that death isn't always instantaneous, "cold-fried-to-a-crisp" freeze. Death can take days, weeks even months after cold events. In 2010 I had tropical palms collapsing 9 months after the Jan. record cold and rain. They were dead all along but didn't know/show it. Nor do I believe a coconut palm, particularly a seedling, will survive -5C (23F) for any length of time (the all time record low for Ft. Myers is 24F in the 1920s). A rogue plunge to -5C minutes before sunup followed by soaring temps after doesn't constitute "survival" in my book. That's a fluke and I have trouble believing that. I'm more inclined to believe measuring equipment was faulty or someone was confused or misinformed. Just because I stick a potted coconut into a freezer for 5 minutes then yank it out doesn't mean it survived 0F (-18C).

My ultimate low last winter was 34F (1C) and I sweated bullets over my 3 surviving dwarf red spicata coconut seedlings. I wrapped them all in blankets with clothespins, weighed with rocks. I went outdoors the following sunny morning and uncovered them so they wouldn't cook. All survived but even though wrapped in blankets they suffered significant cold damage to their strap leaves that took 4-5 months to outgrow. Is there any wonder I go into panic mode when lows below 40F (4C) are predicted?

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RedRabbit
3 hours ago, veeman55 said:

Update on the calabrian coconut. Its still alive and well despite all the hoopla with meteo websites forecasting doom and gloom for southern calabria which was supposed to be one of the worst ever.

However this cold blast from siberia hit most of sicily hard with killer frosts for tropicals even at southermost part of the island in gela(frost free zone) and pozzallo that damaged or killed off banana trees even papayas froze in unheated greenhouses. Light Snow in Palermo Messina and Taormina and most of northern coast.

Papayas Mangoes and Bananas intact no cold damage whatsoever in Reggio area

South East reggio coast province did get hit with low temps close to zero tho. Central calabria got cold too except for vibo coastal area.

Can you explain why Reggio is so much warmer than the Messina/Taormina area? I recall being able to see Reggio from Sicily so I’m not quite clear on why the climate would be so different when they’re so close in proximity. 

Edited by RedRabbit
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Alicante
24 minutes ago, RedRabbit said:

Can you explain why Reggio is so much warmer than the Messina/Taormina area? I recall being able to see Reggio from Sicily so I’m not quite clear on why the climate would be so different when they’re so close in proximity. 

Hmm, personal predilection I guess. Data shows how Reggio and Messina have an almost identical climate. Sure, as you can see them both if you are in the small strait between Sicily and mainland Italy...

Banana plants can handle light freezes and they don't die in 1 day unless if they're hit with extreme cold, which is not the case. Same applies for mangoes. 

I also did a quick check-up of the temperatures in official stations and turns out that Messina had slightly warmer highs and identical lows as Reggio over the past 3 days. :hmm:

Edited by Alicante

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GottmitAlex
1 hour ago, PalmatierMeg said:

Alex, I believe you live in a very dry climate? Exposure to very dry cold air may give a coconut palm an extra degree or so of hardiness. In FL our winters tend to be very dry during cold spells. However, wet or rainy cold can be lethal. And, once again, what so many people are missing/ignoring is the concept of "cool sensitivity", i.e., look at @Alicante's weather chart of rain, highs in teens C and lows under 10C for days. People also forget that death isn't always instantaneous, "cold-fried-to-a-crisp" freeze. Death can take days, weeks even months after cold events. In 2010 I had tropical palms collapsing 9 months after the Jan. record cold and rain. They were dead all along but didn't know/show it. Nor do I believe a coconut palm, particularly a seedling, will survive -5C (23F) for any length of time (the all time record low for Ft. Myers is 24F in the 1920s). A rogue plunge to -5C minutes before sunup followed by soaring temps after doesn't constitute "survival" in my book. That's a fluke and I have trouble believing that. I'm more inclined to believe measuring equipment was faulty or someone was confused or misinformed. Just because I stick a potted coconut into a freezer for 5 minutes then yank it out doesn't mean it survived 0F (-18C).

My ultimate low last winter was 34F (1C) and I sweated bullets over my 3 surviving dwarf red spicata coconut seedlings. I wrapped them all in blankets with clothespins, weighed with rocks. I went outdoors the following sunny morning and uncovered them so they wouldn't cook. All survived but even though wrapped in blankets they suffered significant cold damage to their strap leaves that took 4-5 months to outgrow. Is there any wonder I go into panic mode when lows below 40F (4C) are predicted?

Yes Meg. East Tijuana/ East San Diego is very dry.

Well, the SoCal dryness is what makes a B. Alfredii a Cali 9A palm, while at the same time the same palm is a 9B at best in the east coast/ humid parts of US.

So yes, I agree with you that the extra dry climate gives a coconut a bit more "hardiness".   But the most important factor, I think, is the type of soil and its temperature. (In Cali's case, microclimates)

I'm pretty sure my C. nucifera seedlings (mid 2016- late 2017) had a good one and a half years of advantage by having my south facing coconut garden atop of a then-non obstructed 26 foot-high rock retaining wall which naturally was heated by the sun and made the soil temps rise above the ambient temperature. The coco's roots were at the time were well pampered.  A year and a half ago the neighbor erected his second story. Since then the rock retaining wall does not receive direct sunlight. So during several cold winter nights I turn on the brood lights trained 85% towards the soil and 25% to the meristem of each coco. I am not worried about the foliage. 

 

Edited by GottmitAlex

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GottmitAlex
26 minutes ago, RedRabbit said:

Can you explain why Reggio is so much warmer than the Messina/Taormina area? I recall being able to see Reggio from Sicily so I’m not quite clear on why the climate would be so different when they’re so close in proximity. 

It could very well be certain microclimates. 

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RedRabbit
11 minutes ago, Alicante said:

Hmm, personal predilection I guess.

Data shows how Reggio and Messina have an almost identical climate. Sure, as you can see them both if you are in the small strait between Sicily and mainland Italy...

Banana plants can handle light freezes and they don't die in 1 day unless if they're hit with extreme cold, which is not the case. Same applies for mangoes. He says coastal Messina had light snow but Messina had no snow btw, just hilly areas of the commune. I can't find any source saying it (nor pics) even searching in Italian newspapers. I also did a quick check-up of the temperatures in official stations and turns out that Messina had slightly warmer highs and identical lows as Reggio over the past 3 days. :hmm:

You're exactly right, I reviewed the data from a lot of the local Wunderground stations and the climates of eastern Sicily and Reggio are statistically the same. As you said, Messina is slightly warmer even. 

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GottmitAlex
36 minutes ago, RedRabbit said:

You're exactly right, I reviewed the data from a lot of the local Wunderground stations and the climates of eastern Sicily and Reggio are statistically the same. As you said, Messina is slightly warmer even. 

According to Wikipedia, Reggio is 1 degree warmer all around than Messina.

The other factor I noticed, is that Reggio is much more drier than Messina. (That could be the underestimated and overlooked factor.)

 

 

 

 

messina.jpg

reggio.jpg

Edited by GottmitAlex

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Alicante
18 minutes ago, GottmitAlex said:

According to Wikipedia, Reggio is 1 degree warmer all around than Messina.

The other factor I noticed, is that Reggio is much more drier than Messina. (That could be the underestimated and overlooked factor.)

 

 

 

 

messina.jpg

reggio.jpg

I wouldn't trust Wikipedia so much, as it can be easily edited or data missing. Reggio had -1.0°C in 1959, doesn't show up there but it does in the Italian Wiki. I posted the link 1 page ago.

In overall Messina is 0.5°C warmer than Reggio is, true that Reggio is about 1°C warmer when it comes to winter highs but the average from Dec-Mar is barely 16.1°C, lots of areas in southern Europe have at least 17°C avg highs in that 4 month lapse. I even reckon areas surpassing 18°C.

Btw, Messina had no coastal snow and it was slightly warmer than Reggio these past 3 days. Not sure how plants died in coastal Sicily but got 0 damage in Reggio. Strange...

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Stelios
12 hours ago, veeman55 said:

Ephcharisto Stelios. Great Job on your Coconut. 10 years is a record for the Mediterranean.

You might get a siberian cold front that recently hit italy and greece soon so just beware it may be moving your way.

True about sun. Your at 35 degrees latitude and southern calabria at 38. But latitude isnt always the main factor.

Look at the date palm jungles and sensitive tropicals way up 40 degree latitudes? in the rivieras thanks to the alps shutting down the cold winds.

Or the lemon and orange groves with cacti and palm trees way up north in the italian alpine lakes with constant fohn winds. They are basking in 60f 16c sunshine today.

But for coconuts i agree we need warm highs thats a given and not too low lows.

Curious whats the lowest temperatures youve had in Paphos and Limassol?

What experimental tropical plantations Do they supposedly have in Phassouri? I read about that place before the internet came along years ago and it intrigued me to know what because the books never mentioned what they grew.

Were you ever able to grow Pineapple/Ananas in your garden outdoors?

Many thanks and congratulations Stelios. Thaxxi

 

Hi Vee.

I believe the siberian cold that hit Italy and Greece is here!

For the temps if you mean this winter I think around 7c in Paphos for 1 night and around 6c in Limassol but for record temps maybe around 0c for both towns. Very rarely we have less than 5c for a few nights and not every winter. Last night I was watching the forecast on TV and it was showing Paphos 11c and Limassol 7c. Generally the two towns have similar temps but when we get snowfall on the top of Troodos mountain, Limassol can have cooler nights because is more near the mountain than Paphos.

In Phassouri or Fasouri which is near Limassol, generally they grow citrus (oranges, lemons etc). In Paphos we have a big area to the north of the town with banana plantations mostly but also some avocado, mango, different other tropical fruits. We have a lot of citrus too.

I noticed that our winters are more mild since I was a child. I don't know if the climate is becoming warmer globally but for example the plumerias at my parents house used to have less leave by now. I just took this photo today and this is how they look. The 1st has white and the 2nd pink flowers (still have a few flowers on them). As for pineapple, I have one (which you can see on the righthand side in the photo of the coconut) outside for its first winter under all this rain (planted in mostly sand), but protected near coconut.

 

2019-01-07 08.15.43.jpg

2019-01-07 08.16.17.jpg

2019-01-07 08.16.36.jpg

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veeman55
17 hours ago, Alicante said:

I wouldn't trust Wikipedia so much, as it can be easily edited or data missing. Reggio had -1.0°C in 1959, doesn't show up there but it does in the Italian Wiki. I posted the link 1 page ago.

In overall Messina is 0.5°C warmer than Reggio is, true that Reggio is about 1°C warmer when it comes to winter highs but the average from Dec-Mar is barely 16.1°C, lots of areas in southern Europe have at least 17°C avg highs in that 4 month lapse. I even reckon areas surpassing 18°C.

Btw, Messina had no coastal snow and it was slightly warmer than Reggio these past 3 days. Not sure how plants died in coastal Sicily but got 0 damage in Reggio. Strange...

18 hours ago, RedRabbit said:

You're exactly right, I reviewed the data from a lot of the local Wunderground stations and the climates of eastern Sicily and Reggio are statistically the same. As you said, Messina is slightly warmer even. 

18 hours ago, RedRabbit said:

You're exactly right, I reviewed the data from a lot of the local Wunderground stations and the climates of eastern Sicily and Reggio are statistically the same. As you said, Messina is slightly warmer even. 

By

On 1/5/2019, 1:46:50, Stelios said:

Hi Vee. I wish all the best for your friend's coconut and it will be great to see the updates of this palm. Your friend knows his special microclimate better than us so why not. But I agree with the others. Your friend needs to protect this palm for as long as he can. Also it has to be planted in almost pure sand in a full winter sun position (this is a Holland grown so it could tricky), protected from any cold wind if you want to increase your temps. Growing some tropical fruits does not mean that is possible to grow coconuts. My almost 10 year old palm is going now through its 7th winter in the ground and this is the first year that I decided to let it less protected as you can see in my topic:

2019-01-05 08.44.37.jpg

Messinas weather station is smack in the middle of downtown thats why its warmer whereas Reggios official weather station is at the airport which 2-3° cooler at night especially  with the winds coming off the mountains. They call it thermal inversion there translated The local guys i talk to tell me how much cooler it is at the airport all all the time and not indicative of the rest of the city. Heck they live and monitor the area weather wise. Its one of the very few areas of the city thats exposed to the cool mountain winds sometimes.. so if wikipedia says absolute low -1 i can beleive that at the airport. Ive read that before on wiki but like everyone says wiki stuff isnt written in stone. The absolute low in palermo and messina have also gone below zero at one time or another in past. Miami and southern fla except the kleys San diego and south cal los angeles crete cyprus egypt israel baja california rhodes southern spain morocco have all gone below zero at one time or another in the distant or recent past

Even north of Rc there's huge commercial mango plantation and there are even mango and papaya zones around the city itself with its myriad of mini microclimates because of mountain formations surrounding it

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UK_Palms
9 hours ago, Stelios said:

I noticed that our winters are more mild since I was a child. I don't know if the climate is becoming warmer globally but for example the plumerias at my parents house used to have less leave by now. I just took this photo today and this is how they look. The 1st has white and the 2nd pink flowers (still have a few flowers on them). As for pineapple, I have one (which you can see on the righthand side in the photo of the coconut) outside for its first winter under all this rain (planted in mostly sand), but protected near coconut.

Global warming is definitely making my winters and summers warmer here and it is also changing the rainfall pattern. I remember when I was a kid, only 10-15 years ago, the winters were much colder and almost always snowy. Now we are lucky to get one day of snow a year.

This winter I have been able to leave my citrus/calamondin plants outside and they have gone into flower again over the past week. White buds are appearing everywhere and they still have fruit on them to be harvested. I bring them inside if a frost or cold spell is forecast, but I have only had to bring them in on 4 or 5 nights this winter. Most nights the low is around 5C this time of year.

The one in the picture below has been outside for 2 weeks now, since 23rd December. The high today was 12C and the low last night was 7C. Mild enough to keep the fruit maturing and the plant growing. They probably think it is spring, hence the flowers. It has been very mild this winter, so far. And judging by my forecast, they will be staying outside for the next 10 days or so, along with the cacti. The southeast of England is pretty dry and mild although we can get hit by cold spells. 

large.5c33885367c64_Calamondinwinter.jpg

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veeman55
19 hours ago, RedRabbit said:

Can you explain why Reggio is so much warmer than the Messina/Taormina area? I recall being able to see Reggio from Sicily so I’m not quite clear on why the climate would be so different when they’re so close in proximity. 

Hard to explain. Mountain formations, strait currents, Reggio is facing west and the mountains behind Messina block out whats coming from west north west. Messina faces east south east. Reggio has more plantations than messina does. There weather is similar few degrees difference either way. Matter of poisitioning or exposure. It could be raining on one side and dry on the other and vice versa. Its kind of a unique macro microclimate not comparable to anywhere in the mediterranean. For its 38th parallel it sure is mild in winter

I read years ago cant remember where that the straits of messina had a connection with Maltas climate as frosts are extremely rare there

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veeman55
14 minutes ago, UK_Palms said:

Global warming is definitely making my winters and summers warmer here and it is also changing the rainfall pattern. I remember when I was a kid, only 10-15 years ago, the winters were much colder and almost always snowy. Now we are lucky to get one day of snow a year.

This winter I have been able to leave my citrus/calamondin plants outside and they have gone into flower again over the past week. White buds are appearing everywhere and they still have fruit on them to be harvested. I bring them inside if a frost or cold spell is forecast, but I have only had to bring them in on 4 or 5 nights this winter. Most nights the low is around 5C this time of year.

The one in the picture below has been outside for 2 weeks now, since 23rd December. The high today was 12C and the low last night was 7C. Mild enough to keep the fruit maturing and the plant growing. They probably think it is spring, hence the flowers. It has been very mild this winter, so far. And judging by my forecast, they will be staying outside for the next 10 days or so, along with the cacti. The southeast of England is pretty dry and mild although we can get hit by cold spells. 

large.5c33885367c64_Calamondinwinter.jpg

Wasnt London warmer many years ago than it is now?

This year you got a nice warm spell. Northern italian alp region while south was in a deep freeze with snowstorms in puglia and parts of sicily.

southern alp and italian lakes towns were getting sunshine and +12 at night +16 during the day due to fohn winds. Due to a huge high pressure.

Weird whacky weather

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