Sabal palmetto restoration in NC

[PalmTreeDude]

1 hour ago, NC_Palms said:

Thank you. I've been really busy with school and all but I plan on completing the official paper sometime within the next few weeks. 

I think we've got enough evidence proving the existence of Sabal palmetto on Cape Hatteras with recent history to go forth with restoration. The next step would be figuring out how that can be done. 

A few full seed stalks is how it can be done, and a lot of time. You could also grow them to a reasonable size (to a gallon or so) and plant them in clear areas. You'll definitely want to get them into a preserve or something or they'll probably be destroyed, humans like to destroy everything unfortunately (I am guilty, of course, I did my fair share of cutting down/ripping out plants as well, I don't anymore unless necessary). 

[Jimbean]

9 hours ago, NC_Palms said:

Thank you. I've been really busy with school and all but I plan on completing the official paper sometime within the next few weeks. 

I think we've got enough evidence proving the existence of Sabal palmetto on Cape Hatteras with recent history to go forth with restoration. The next step would be figuring out how that can be done. 

strategic planting

 

I thought about his for royals as well, but I'm not sure if I want to do it or not.

[NC_Palms]

20 hours ago, PalmTreeDude said:

A few full seed stalks is how it can be done, and a lot of time. You could also grow them to a reasonable size (to a gallon or so) and plant them in clear areas. You'll definitely want to get them into a preserve or something or they'll probably be destroyed, humans like to destroy everything unfortunately (I am guilty, of course, I did my fair share of cutting down/ripping out plants as well, I don't anymore unless necessary). 

I am currently in the germinating/looooong waiting period before I can start planting anything, but my plan is to donate most of the Sabal palmetto that I have grown to preservation sites along the coast from Cape Hatteras and south. 

[NOT A TA]

I'm curious as to why you would bother germinating seed and caring for them.  If you spread seed  (or actually plant seed) where you want them to grow and they don't grow then so be it, they're not meant to survive there.  If you plant specimens you've grown under ideal (or maybe just better) conditions, you've only postponed the inevitable conclusion that they're not going to naturalize there when they reach maturity 20 years down the road but don't reproduce. If you plant specimens you've grown, you've put yourself in the position of those who zone push plants into areas they might survive in but don't reproduce in with viable offspring. You wouldn't be "restoring" but rather be temporarily (perhaps lasting decades) creating an artificial appearance of a natural population. 

I still think there's probably environmental factors that may have contributed to the NC Palmetto extirpation. People harvesting wouldn't have killed off the entire population over a wide area. There would be specimens in hard to get to areas in swamps, some in parks, some on private lands where the land owner wouldn't allow harvesting, etc. etc. etc. And those specimens would have repopulated the species if growing conditions were favorable as soon as the practice of harvesting for the cabbage tapered off. Like crabgrass, clover, dandelions, or whatever,  you might rid your yard of it temporarily but it's coming back as soon as you let your guard down. Palmettos were widely harvested for the food here also in the past yet they're one of if not the most prolific weed trees here now.

[NC_Palms]

3 minutes ago, NOT A TA said:

I'm curious as to why you would bother germinating seed and caring for them.  If you spread seed  (or actually plant seed) where you want them to grow and they don't grow then so be it, they're not meant to survive there.  If you plant specimens you've grown under ideal (or maybe just better) conditions, you've only postponed the inevitable conclusion that they're not going to naturalize there when they reach maturity 20 years down the road but don't reproduce. If you plant specimens you've grown, you've put yourself in the position of those who zone push plants into areas they might survive in but don't reproduce in with viable offspring. You wouldn't be "restoring" but rather be temporarily (perhaps lasting decades) creating an artificial appearance of a natural population. 

I still think there's probably environmental factors that may have contributed to the NC Palmetto extirpation. People harvesting wouldn't have killed off the entire population over a wide area. There would be specimens in hard to get to areas in swamps, some in parks, some on private lands where the land owner wouldn't allow harvesting, etc. etc. etc. And those specimens would have repopulated the species if growing conditions were favorable as soon as the practice of harvesting for the cabbage tapered off. Like crabgrass, clover, dandelions, or whatever,  you might rid your yard of it temporarily but it's coming back as soon as you let your guard down. Palmettos were widely harvested for the food here also in the past yet they're one of if not the most prolific weed trees here now.

I never had any rhyme or reason but you bring up a very valid point and I agree with you. Spreading seeds around seems like more of a realistic approach than trying to germinate and care for seedlings on my own. 

I also agree that there was some environmental factor that lead to the exirpation on Cape Hatteras. My theory is that maybe the cold spells of the early 1900’s may of played a roll in the extirpation of Sabal palmetto north of BHI. 

I am not an expert on ocean currents by any means, but I wonder if Sabal palmetto seeds are still floating up the Gulf Stream and landing on North Carolina beaches. I’d imagine that it seems possible. 

 

 

[NOT A TA]

Have you researched widespread fires that may have occurred in the area? Could there have been an extended drought situation over several years or maybe a decade combined with one or more fires that may have gotten going with little to stop them? Perhaps combined with other factors such as extremely cold spells? Repeated fires with few periods of favorable conditions for seed germination and seedling/juvenile growth could seriously affect the population. After several years of unfavorable conditions the viability of seeds remaining after fires, extended droughts would be poor even in ideal conditions, never mind on the limit of it's ideal natural range (if it was natural, see below). 

Insect pests or disease? Since the area being discussed is at the limit of the range for cold hardiness, repeated cold spells would put them under stress, therefore being more vulnerable to disease or insect infestation.

Perhaps unusual conditions occurred at some point which allowed Sabal palmetto to naturalize in the area where it hadn't grown previously?  As an example: Lets say there was a huge storm that flushed lots of seed (of all types) into rivers in FL, GA, SC which went to sea and floated up North via the Gulf Stream. If the storm surge flooded coastal areas the seeds would be spread about all over the area. If favorable conditions existed after the storm surge receded for seed germination and then seedling/juvenile growth you'd have a naturalized population which might or might not survive long term and might or might not reach reproductive age. If they survived to reproductive age, favorable conditions for production of viable seeds followed by favorable conditions for germination/seedlings/juvenile would once again be necessary. That's a lot to ask for at the northern limit of survive-ability, so what you might end up with is a mature stand of trees that eventually die off. This would be similar to what I described might occur in my last post if you raise juveniles and then plant them except that nature provided the conditions for seed transportation and initial germination/seedling/juvenile.

Edited April 1, 2019 by NOT A TA

[Jimbean]

I suppose you can look at it as an experiment.  Of course you will not be able to see the proliferation of those Sabals in your lifetime unless you get life extension in the future.  I would imagine that they would grow there, at least until some kind of weather phenomenon wipes them out.

[Zeeth]

18 hours ago, NOT A TA said:

I'm curious as to why you would bother germinating seed and caring for them.  If you spread seed  (or actually plant seed) where you want them to grow and they don't grow then so be it, they're not meant to survive there.  If you plant specimens you've grown under ideal (or maybe just better) conditions, you've only postponed the inevitable conclusion that they're not going to naturalize there when they reach maturity 20 years down the road but don't reproduce. If you plant specimens you've grown, you've put yourself in the position of those who zone push plants into areas they might survive in but don't reproduce in with viable offspring. You wouldn't be "restoring" but rather be temporarily (perhaps lasting decades) creating an artificial appearance of a natural population. 

I see what you're saying, but I don't think that I agree. In nature, each palm produces thousands of seeds yearly (a mature S. palmetto produces about 20,000 seeds each season). Natural clusters often have hundreds of palms, so the natural conditions of any given palm are that there are hundreds of thousands (or millions) of seeds spread around each year, and only a small percentage will sprout in any given year. I've spread out tens of thousands of Sabal lisa (a variety native to SW Florida but not common in the wild) seeds in a local bird preserve over the last 10 years and I haven't seen a single S. lisa seedling from this effort.

 

I think it makes sense to grow up a few seedlings to a respectable size before planting them out in an ideal spot. Then, in 20 years, that tree might produce 20,000 seeds each season on its own. This is the way that Fairchild has re-established P. sargentii in areas where it used to be native.  To truly replicate the natural conditions, one would have to gather 100,000+ seeds each year and spread them out. It seems easier to establish a group of palms from seedlings and let them do the work. If it doesn't work that way, then it wasn't meant to be, but spreading out a few hundred each year definitely isn't gonna do it. 

[NOT A TA]

3 hours ago, Zeeth said:

I see what you're saying, but I don't think that I agree. In nature, each palm produces thousands of seeds yearly (a mature S. palmetto produces about 20,000 seeds each season). Natural clusters often have hundreds of palms, so the natural conditions of any given palm are that there are hundreds of thousands (or millions) of seeds spread around each year, and only a small percentage will sprout in any given year. I've spread out tens of thousands of Sabal lisa (a variety native to SW Florida but not common in the wild) seeds in a local bird preserve over the last 10 years and I haven't seen a single S. lisa seedling from this effort.

 

I think it makes sense to grow up a few seedlings to a respectable size before planting them out in an ideal spot. Then, in 20 years, that tree might produce 20,000 seeds each season on its own. This is the way that Fairchild has re-established P. sargentii in areas where it used to be native.  To truly replicate the natural conditions, one would have to gather 100,000+ seeds each year and spread them out. It seems easier to establish a group of palms from seedlings and let them do the work. If it doesn't work that way, then it wasn't meant to be, but spreading out a few hundred each year definitely isn't gonna do it. 

I agree with you about the proliferation of seed in a natural scenario which is why I mentioned actually planting seed as well as spreading. I will admit my perception of the challenge of reintroducing Sabal palmetto is probably a bit skewed because it's a nuisance weed here like crabgrass. If one of my neighbors planted one I'd go over and offer them a different Palm even if I had to buy it for them. I'm actually kinda surprised the maintenance departments for cities, counties, etc here haven't asked planners and landscape architects to stop using them in landscape designs because they create a burden on the maintenance departments who have to try and keep up with removing all the unwanted ones. It costs millions every year to remove them.

Another reason I mentioned spreading or planting seed is that the palmettos do not like being transplanted at all until they've got some good trunk height for water storage. Having followed the thread since he started it I know the areas are not close to where he lives  (like say backyard) and he's a busy young student. I know even here where they grow like weeds I have quite a challenge transplanting juveniles (yes I grow some ahaha) which need to be kept wet after transplant because the roots break so easily. From his previous posts about having to wait to have time to go to certain areas I had/have doubts about his ability to go water transplants when necessary over many months. I spent an hour and a half tonight hand watering plantings I did this winter at a school on my street with jugs I fill at my house because it hasn't rained for 4 days. I'm old with free time and it's only a few minutes from my home. It takes a lot of effort to get transplants of any type established if it's not in your own yard and you don't have running water available. Would he have the time, every time, watering is necessary? Even I lost about 30 nice plants at this winters vigilante project because I didn't get there to water for 6 days once.

It's been my experience that Sabal palmetto likes to germinate and stay in one place.  Seedlings/juveniles can get very dry or flooded and be just fine, cut off all the fronds (above apical meristem) and they'll pop right back as long as it stays in the same place it germinated.  However, until it's got several feet of solid trunk as soon as it's dug up, moved, transplanted, or the roots are disturbed in any way it suffers a serious setback even if it lives. So being transplanted out into the wild where it might not get watered often enough when it's already under transplant shock/stress didn't seem like a good idea to me. So I thought why should he bother germinating and caring for young plants at all in his situation? The transplanted seedlings/juveniles aren't likely to live anyway and it would be even more disappointing to see the plants he grew die than say not seeing seed sprout.

[NC_Palms]

12 hours ago, NOT A TA said:

Have you researched widespread fires that may have occurred in the area? Could there have been an extended drought situation over several years or maybe a decade combined with one or more fires that may have gotten going with little to stop them? Perhaps combined with other factors such as extremely cold spells? Repeated fires with few periods of favorable conditions for seed germination and seedling/juvenile growth could seriously affect the population. After several years of unfavorable conditions the viability of seeds remaining after fires, extended droughts would be poor even in ideal conditions, never mind on the limit of it's ideal natural range (if it was natural, see below). 

Insect pests or disease? Since the area being discussed is at the limit of the range for cold hardiness, repeated cold spells would put them under stress, therefore being more vulnerable to disease or insect infestation.

Perhaps unusual conditions occurred at some point which allowed Sabal palmetto to naturalize in the area where it hadn't grown previously?  As an example: Lets say there was a huge storm that flushed lots of seed (of all types) into rivers in FL, GA, SC which went to sea and floated up North via the Gulf Stream. If the storm surge flooded coastal areas the seeds would be spread about all over the area. If favorable conditions existed after the storm surge receded for seed germination and then seedling/juvenile growth you'd have a naturalized population which might or might not survive long term and might or might not reach reproductive age. If they survived to reproductive age, favorable conditions for production of viable seeds followed by favorable conditions for germination/seedlings/juvenile would once again be necessary. That's a lot to ask for at the northern limit of survive-ability, so what you might end up with is a mature stand of trees that eventually die off. This would be similar to what I described might occur in my last post if you raise juveniles and then plant them except that nature provided the conditions for seed transportation and initial germination/seedling/juvenile.

3

I haven't researched the history of wildfires and droughts on Cape Hatteras, but it seems possible. When I find more time, I'll research it and share my findings here.

The unusual conditions theory makes sense. From the 1500's AD to the 1800's AD, North America was experiencing a so-called mini ice age and previously a cool, dry period in the 1400's AD. Perhaps the several centuries of cold temperatures put stress on Sabal palmetto until it was finally extirpated by both human activity and environmental stressors?. 

10 hours ago, Jimbean said:

I suppose you can look at it as an experiment.  Of course you will not be able to see the proliferation of those Sabals in your lifetime unless you get life extension in the future.  I would imagine that they would grow there, at least until some kind of weather phenomenon wipes them out.

That's a good way to think about it 

[NC_Palms]

34 minutes ago, NOT A TA said:

I agree with you about the proliferation of seed in a natural scenario which is why I mentioned actually planting seed as well as spreading. I will admit my perception of the challenge of reintroducing Sabal palmetto is probably a bit skewed because it's a nuisance weed here like crabgrass. If one of my neighbors planted one I'd go over and offer them a different Palm even if I had to buy it for them. I'm actually kinda surprised the maintenance departments for cities, counties, etc here haven't asked planners and landscape architects to stop using them in landscape designs because they create a burden on the maintenance departments who have to try and keep up with removing all the unwanted ones. It costs millions every year to remove them.

Another reason I mentioned spreading or planting seed is that the palmettos do not like being transplanted at all until they've got some good trunk height for water storage. Having followed the thread since he started it I know the areas are not close to where he lives  (like say backyard) and he's a busy young student. I know even here where they grow like weeds I have quite a challenge transplanting juveniles (yes I grow some ahaha) which need to be kept wet after transplant because the roots break so easily. From his previous posts about having to wait to have time to go to certain areas I had/have doubts about his ability to go water transplants when necessary over many months. I spent an hour and a half tonight hand watering plantings I did this winter at a school on my street with jugs I fill at my house because it hasn't rained for 4 days. I'm old with free time and it's only a few minutes from my home. It takes a lot of effort to get transplants of any type established if it's not in your own yard and you don't have running water available. Would he have the time, every time, watering is necessary? Even I lost about 30 nice plants at this winters vigilante project because I didn't get there to water for 6 days once.

It's been my experience that Sabal palmetto likes to germinate and stay in one place.  Seedlings/juveniles can get very dry or flooded and be just fine, cut off all the fronds (above apical meristem) and they'll pop right back as long as it stays in the same place it germinated.  However, until it's got several feet of solid trunk as soon as it's dug up, moved, transplanted, or the roots are disturbed in any way it suffers a serious setback even if it lives. So being transplanted out into the wild where it might not get watered often enough when it's already under transplant shock/stress didn't seem like a good idea to me. So I thought why should he bother germinating and caring for young plants at all in his situation? The transplanted seedlings/juveniles aren't likely to live anyway and it would be even more disappointing to see the plants he grew die than say not seeing seed sprout.

Good points! I think for my situation, it would be easier and more effective if I spread seeds around rather than going through the process of germination and then spending several years caring for seedlings. 

At the end of the day, this is all experimental at best. 

[Jimbean]

I would pick one, two, or three specific areas that are ideal and concentrate on them with seeds. 

[Joe NC]

4 hours ago, Jimbean said:

I would pick one, two, or three specific areas that are ideal and concentrate on them with seeds. 

Exactly.  I've been throwing Sabal seeds in the wooded area behind my house for years.  It will take a long time to notice the progress, but they will chug along in the undergrowth.

[RaleighNC]

If you have a limited number of seeds, I would take the time to bury the seed. A lot fewer are likely to germinate if they are on the surface. With Sabal, I get excellent results in my yard by making a small cut in the ground with any tool and dropping a seed in.  It is just a little more work than throwing them, but a lot less work than growing them up and planting them.

[PalmTreeDude]

I took a Sabal palmetto seed stock from a North Carolina rest stop back here to Virginia and flung them all around a little wooded area (that has slowly been becoming a planter) a couple years ago. The first year nothing came up, then the next Summer it was like they all came up at once and now it is filled with them, the first Winter (which was a really cold one, even for here) killed the weakest ones. Now, it is still loaded with seedlings, so now I'm just seeing how big they get before they die. When I first pulled the stock out of my car I dropped a bunch of seeds on my driveway and they all washed into the crack between the driveway and yard when it rained and sprouted there too. I don't think there will be any issue getting them to germinate in the ground by just flinging LOADS of seed everywhere, the issue is making sure they can rech maturity. Of course many will die along the way due to different causes. 

[NC_Palms]

Thanks everyone for your suggestions. I have a few locations in mind where I plan to plant the seeds. I won't start this until it warms up a bit more. I will keep everyone updated on my progress and growth. 

 

Furthermore, I wanted to share to everyone how easy Sabal palmetto can naturalize even here in Greenville. A few years back, a shopping center mass planted Sabal palmetto transplants from Florida. Unfortunately, these Florida transplants started dying but stayed long enough to produce seeds. Now the parking lot is littered in Sabal palmetto seedlings! I took these photos this past January. 

 

Some Fl transplanted Sabal palmettos are thriving here, like this one. In this photo, you can see the inflorescence full of seeds.

[NCFM]

Any updates?

[NC_Palms]

On 12/21/2019 at 6:43 PM, NC_Palm_Enthusiast said:

Any updates?

I will post an update next week when I return back to North Carolina. I have been out of state for several months and so haven't had a chance to check on the seedlings. I will have a progress update for everyone next week. 

[RyManUtah]

This thread makes me happy. I love when palms naturalize places. Best of luck to you. 

[NC_Palms]

17 hours ago, Ryagra said:

This thread makes me happy. I love when palms naturalize places. Best of luck to you. 

Thank you so much! :))

[NC_Palms]

Hello all. I apologize that it has taken a while to get updates. What was supposed to be a summer project was delayed due to temporarily leaving North Carolina for school. 

A few days back I drove down to the Fort Fisher area in Kure Beach to document more potentially native Sabal palmetto north of Bald Head Island, which is the currently known northernmost location of this species.  I was unable to find many tall specimens despite having strong evidence from Google Maps that shows this palm reaching the canopy of these intriguing subtropical ecosystems. I did in fact find evidence of reproduction in many of the medium-sized specimens in Kure Beach. 

In my observations, Sabal palmetto was absent in the salt marshes around the Fort Fisher State Recreational Area and grew mostly in the maritime forest and was seldom found in the high dune ecosystems. 

Without a doubt, I am confident that Sabal palmetto is native to New Hanover County.  I say this because while S. palmetto is commonly grown throughout the entire North Carolina coastline at a similar rate from Atlantic Beach to Kure Beach, you'll never see a ton of seedlings and medium sized specimens in the northern beaches when compared to Kure Beach. 

 

Thanks to @NOT A TA, I was given a ton of S. palmetto seeds to spread around areas where this palm may have been native to in recent history. As far as I am aware, I could not find evidence if any of the seeds germinated in the wild. I did see tons of seedlings on the forest floor but I cannot confirm or deny that those seedlings came from the seeds given to me. 

 

In conclusion, I collected more leaf samples of the Kure Beach specimens and I plan on sending my documentations to the NCSU herbariums.  For public view, I have listed my recent sightings on iNaturalist. Keep in mind that iNaturalist will not show the exact location of my sightings because this palm is considered endangered in North Carolina. 

https://www.inaturalist.org/projects/wild-sabal-palmetto-north-of-bald-head-island?tab=observations

[Joe NC]

On 4/2/2019 at 10:51 AM, Joe NC said:

Exactly.  I've been throwing Sabal seeds in the wooded area behind my house for years.  It will take a long time to notice the progress, but they will chug along in the undergrowth.

Went out and snapped a quick photo of some of the results of my Sabal seed tossing efforts.  The canopy was opened up with Florence in 2018, and the seedlings put on some growth with all the extra sun.   The taller S. palmetto are easy to identify now in the sea of S. minor. 

[PalmTreeDude]

8 hours ago, Joe NC said:

Went out and snapped a quick photo of some of the results of my Sabal seed tossing efforts.  The canopy was opened up with Florence in 2018, and the seedlings put on some growth with all the extra sun.   The taller S. palmetto are easy to identify now in the sea of S. minor. 

In 20 years it's going to be crazy back there... 

[Joe NC]

11 hours ago, PalmTreeDude said:

In 20 years it's going to be crazy back there... 

It used to be an impenetrable understory thicket of invasive privet, with nothing able to grow below that.   I've slowly been killing off sections of the privet and adding natives (Sabal included)

 

[NCFM]

Any news?

 

[NC_Palms]

On 5/24/2020 at 5:04 PM, NC_Palm_Enthusiast said:

Any news?

 

I will update everyone in a few weeks when I return back to the NC beaches. I have not visited since January so I am eager to see if anything germinated 

[NCFM]

On 7/13/2020 at 2:10 PM, NC_Palms said:

I will update everyone in a few weeks when I return back to the NC beaches. I have not visited since January so I am eager to see if anything germinated 

How’d it go?

[climate change virginia]

if you want a higher chance of them surviving try taking them from virginia beach its the most northern naturalization. If you go to BHI look for the oldest palmetto it probably has the best genes because it survived 1980 freezes and 2014.

Edited March 4, 2021 by climate change virginia

[Palmy Pal]

There is a few palms thought to be wild Sabal palmetto near Hatteras NC in a nature preserve. I think there were pictures of it 

[palmsOrl]

On 3/4/2021 at 11:05 AM, climate change virginia said:

if you want a higher chance of them surviving try taking them from virginia beach its the most northern naturalization. If you go to BHI look for the oldest palmetto it probably has the best genes because it survived 1980 freezes and 2014.

Was there significant mortality of the native Sabal palmetto during the 1980 and 2014 freezes?

-Michael

[NC_Palms]

Hi everyone, 

This project is still in the works. I have a ton of sabal palmetto seedlings that I need to get planting. If anyone is in the eastern NC area and wants to help i’ll send you some to plant : )

[NC_Palms]

Also, sorry for the long overdue update, but I’m pretty sure some of the seedling and seeds i’ve planted are established now. Will need to do another trip back down to get some photos. 

[MattInRaleigh]

@NC_Palms, great project! As a North Carolinian, I'm thankful for all this research and work.

Do you have a good estimate of what month the Bald Head Island sabal palmetto seeds are ripe?

[NC_Palms]

On 7/29/2023 at 10:44 AM, MattInRaleigh said:

@NC_Palms, great project! As a North Carolinian, I'm thankful for all this research and work.

Do you have a good estimate of what month the Bald Head Island sabal palmetto seeds are ripe?

I’m pretty sure now is the time when they’re ripe 

[NC_Palms]

Also just a fyi i’m going to be publishing actual documented research soon, as I have chosen this topic to be my final project for my biology degree : ) so stay tuned this has been a several year project in the making! 

 

My schedule has been extremely swamped. And I haven’t been to the sites like i’ve promised in the past few months, but this is gonna change in the new year, im thinking of driving back in the next few weeks. 

 

Also, i had absolutely no time to collect palmetto seeds like I usually do, so if anyone has any to spare, I’ll buy some off you to continue more restoration in southeastern NC.