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Jimbean

Poll on Florida hardiness zones

which hardiness zone map do you prefer of Florida?  

23 members have voted

  1. 1. which hardiness zone map do you prefer of Florida?

    • map #1
      2
    • map #2
      10
    • map #3
      0
    • map #4
      5
    • map #5
      6
    • map #6
      0


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RedRabbit
3 hours ago, kinzyjr said:

Coastal Pinellas and Hillsborough do appear to be a shade or two cooler than what they are.  They do have coconuts that survived 1989 at Kopsick and that is on the east side of the peninsula in Pinellas.  I would still say #5 is the best overall map from my point of view.

Yeah, map #5 doesn't do a good job on the west coast. It basically says 95% of Sarasota County is warmer than Pinellas which clearly is not the case. 

@Jimbean, this is the best map I've seen for the immediate Tampa Bay area:

http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/6179-make-your-own-zone-map/#comment-104327

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Xenon
45 minutes ago, Estlander said:

 

Another plant I like that you see alot as soon as you get down to 9B is the Norfolk Island pine. Unfortunately that is nowhere to be seen here. 

5bca640fd5422.image.thumb.jpg.21a9cc9ee9

Here's what a bad freeze does to them in 9b, similar latitude to Destin. This is the TX state champion (there may be larger specimens further down the coast and in the RGV). They were one of the most common trees in Galveston and survived Hurricane Ike in 2008. January 2018 absolutely nuked them. (Sorry for OT) 

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RedRabbit
1 hour ago, Estlander said:

Love the look of P. Reclinata a lot. They’re extremely rare for the area. So I took seeds from both P. Reclinatas back in October and they’ve all germinated. Gonna plant one on my yard when they’re big enough to be planted. :)

That's too bad they're not up there. They're all over the place here, very invasive. 

52 minutes ago, Estlander said:

Another plant I like that you see alot as soon as you get down to 9B is the Norfolk Island pine. Unfortunately that is nowhere to be seen here. 

I don't think Norfolk Island pines are actually long term hardy in 9B. There's a ton of them in 9B now, but you don't see the huge 100+ ft tall pines until you get to warmer parts of 10a. I'm guessing they must have not fared well in the 80s around here.  

Edited by RedRabbit
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kinzyjr
7 minutes ago, RedRabbit said:

Yeah, map #5 doesn't do a good job on the west coast. It basically says 95% of Sarasota County is warmer than Pinellas which clearly is not the case. 

@Jimbean, this is the best map I've seen for the immediate Tampa Bay area:

http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/6179-make-your-own-zone-map/#comment-104327

Thanks for sharing that link.  Definitely some valuable commentary for our region.

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Estlander
22 minutes ago, Xenon said:

5bca640fd5422.image.thumb.jpg.21a9cc9ee9

Here's what a bad freeze does to them in 9b, similar latitude to Destin. This is the TX state champion (there may be larger specimens further down the coast and in the RGV). They were one of the most common trees in Galveston and survived Hurricane Ike in 2008. January 2018 absolutely nuked them. (Sorry for OT) 

Ouch! If it’s really dead it would cost a pretty penny to take that beast down so close to the house. 

For me they’ve always been one of the most visible markers between 9A and 9B. I’m sure that when those 9B areas ever have a lower end 9A winter, they will most likely freeze. 

They’re everywhere in Daytona Beach. 

Edited by Estlander
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Jimbean
35 minutes ago, RedRabbit said:

Yeah, map #5 doesn't do a good job on the west coast. It basically says 95% of Sarasota County is warmer than Pinellas which clearly is not the case. 

@Jimbean, this is the best map I've seen for the immediate Tampa Bay area:

http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/6179-make-your-own-zone-map/#comment-104327

it's detailed but looks too warm. 

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kinzyjr
3 hours ago, Estlander said:

Can’t do that, lol. Then I’d be looking at S. Repens, Sabals, Butia and Euro fans only.  

Couldn’t imagine my surroundings without W. Robusta, CIDP, P. Sylvestris, P. Dactylifera, L. Chinensis/Nitida/Decora, Queens. Some of these palms have become numerous enough that they’re stepping on the toes of Sabals already.

Could you imagine your area of Tampa/Clearwater/St. Pete without Royals, Foxtails and other crown shaft palms and Coconuts? St. Pete went down to 18F in the 80’s. 

We certainly do have 9B winters here but not reliably enough to actually grow any 9B palms for more than a few years. P. Roebelenii is still a no go here unless you provide it some protection during a 9A winter. 

Another plant I like that you see alot as soon as you get down to 9B is the Norfolk Island pine. Unfortunately that is nowhere to be seen here. 

Nothing wrong with a little variety :)

Where did the 18F in St. Pete come from?  The record low for St. Pete is 22F according to weather.com:

201812290100_StPeteWeather.png

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RedRabbit
3 hours ago, Jimbean said:

it's detailed but looks too warm. 

It may be a little warm. Regardless of the scale, the lines are drawn well for radiational freezes. 

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Xenon
4 hours ago, Estlander said:

Ouch! If it’s really dead it would cost a pretty penny to take that beast down so close to the house. 

For me they’ve always been one of the most visible markers between 9A and 9B. I’m sure that when those 9B areas ever have a lower end 9A winter, they will most likely freeze. 

They’re everywhere in Daytona Beach. 

They're really a 9b/10a plant. Start showing damage at around 30F and major damage under 27-28F. Long duration freeze and an ultimate low of 25F (still technically 9b) erased 20 years of growth in Galveston. You can see all the dead trees on streetview...several on every block, quite sad. For comparison, some royal palms and a few foxtail palms managed to slip by.

Daytona Beach (near the water) is probably close to 10a, at least in the short term. The handful of coconuts there are a testament to that. 

 

Edited by Xenon

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Jimbean
9 hours ago, Xenon said:

They're really a 9b/10a plant. Start showing damage at around 30F and major damage under 27-28F. Long duration freeze and an ultimate low of 25F (still technically 9b) erased 20 years of growth in Galveston. You can see all the dead trees on streetview...several on every block, quite sad. For comparison, some royal palms and a few foxtail palms managed to slip by.

Daytona Beach (near the water) is probably close to 10a, at least in the short term. The handful of coconuts there are a testament to that. 

 

Daytona Beach is 9B and nowhere close to 10A.  It sounds like Norfolk Island pines are susceptible to long duration freezes.

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Estlander
10 hours ago, kinzyjr said:

Nothing wrong with a little variety :)

Where did the 18F in St. Pete come from?  The record low for St. Pete is 22F according to weather.com:

201812290100_StPeteWeather.png

Yes, the lowest for St Pete is 22F, 19F in Clearwater and 18F in Tampa. No crownshaft palm would survive those temps. 

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Matthew92
16 hours ago, Estlander said:

Not to mention all these Queens around town and in the area. And that’s not nearly all of them. There’s many more that I know of. 

Yeah, I know all about the 80’s freezes. Yes, they happened. Jacksonville went down to single digits and had a lot of snow. Neither area has seen those temps since. So why are they 9A on map #5 and coastal panhandle in a colder end of 8B?

So yeah, to reiterate my earlier point: Map # 5 sucks :D

Wow, you sure have found all the queens around there- I haven't seen many of those. I can see how if the area continues to have nothing colder than 9a temps, queens will become VERY prevalent. sure looks like they are almost common with your picture compilation, but they still aren't quite a widespread landscape staple at this point (more so to someone who doesn't live and drive around there a lot). Most of those are either planted post-2014 (like the ones at the Palms of Destin Resort) or they were 100% defoliated after that winter (with rare exception). 

I similarly remember in the mid/late 2000's, there was a big push for Phoenix roebelenni to become a landscape staple- they were being planted left and right everywhere. If it hadn't been for the freezes, they would be in almost everyone's front yard today.

I'll also point out that it wasn't just 80's freezes that had queen killing temps in the Destin area. Feb 1996 had 14 degrees at nearby Eglin Air Force Base (which probably meant nothing warmer than upper teens for the Destin area). And January 2003 had 19 degrees in the Destin area as well.

Edited by Opal92

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kinzyjr
47 minutes ago, Estlander said:

Yes, the lowest for St Pete is 22F, 19F in Clearwater and 18F in Tampa. No crownshaft palm would survive those temps. 

Probably not even at the St. Pete low.  Eric in Orlando had a great thread about the 1989 freeze that shows what can happen when the big one comes.  Even some of the hardy stuff takes a dive.

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Palmaceae
3 hours ago, kinzyjr said:

Probably not even at the St. Pete low.  Eric in Orlando had a great thread about the 1989 freeze that shows what can happen when the big one comes.  Even some of the hardy stuff takes a dive.

3 hours ago, kinzyjr said:

 

3 hours ago, kinzyjr said:

 

Many mature Royals survived the 80's freezes in the warmer areas of St Pete, but they were completely defoilated.

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Estlander
5 hours ago, Opal92 said:

Wow, you sure have found all the queens around there- I haven't seen many of those. I can see how if the area continues to have nothing colder than 9a temps, queens will become VERY prevalent. sure looks like they are almost common with your picture compilation, but they still aren't quite a widespread landscape staple at this point (more so to someone who doesn't live and drive around there a lot). Most of those are either planted post-2014 (like the ones at the Palms of Destin Resort) or they were 100% defoliated after that winter (with rare exception). 

I similarly remember in the mid/late 2000's, there was a big push for Phoenix roebelenni to become a landscape staple- they were being planted left and right everywhere. If it hadn't been for the freezes, they would be in almost everyone's front yard today.

I'll also point out that it wasn't just 80's freezes that had queen killing temps in the Destin area. Feb 1996 had 14 degrees at nearby Eglin Air Force Base (which probably meant nothing warmer than upper teens for the Destin area). And January 2003 had 19 degrees in the Destin area as well.

I wish I could say how long all of these Queens have been around, but I can't. But believe me, there's more. :D Have also seen surprisingly many of them in Panama City and Panama City Beach.

This is only my second winter that I've been paying close attention to how everything does around here in the winter. Up until two years or so ago I took everything growing around here for granted. I had no idea about how low winter temps could drop in Florida and what the cold hardiness levels of different Palms even were.

Then I heard about the winter of 1899 and -14C being recorded in Tallahassee. Blew me away. I was like, ok, that was over 100 years ago and who knows if it happens again (not yet being aware of the 80's freezes at that point, lol). When I finally did find out about the 80's freezes and hardiness levels of Palms is when everything changed. Started seriously freaking out at that point :D

Coming back to the Queens, however, the only one I've personally been aware of since 2012 is the one that's a few houses down from me. The crown on this thing is massive and nothing like the sorry ones on the ones I've posted. That one actually shows up on Google Maps images from 2007. So it's been there at least 12 years.

There's another one a couple of miles from me that's even bigger. It's tall with a thick robust trunk and the fronds on that thing are scary big when you're standing by it. Wouldn't wanna climb up there to prune that thing ,lol.

Edited by Estlander
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Estlander
7 hours ago, Opal92 said:

I similarly remember in the mid/late 2000's, there was a big push for Phoenix roebelenni to become a landscape staple- they were being planted left and right everywhere. If it hadn't been for the freezes, they would be in almost everyone's front yard today.

Considering they're about 5F less hardy than Queens, probably not such a good idea to spend money on those. With that being said, I do have one in ground as well. :D 

There's a nursery here that sells them for only $25. It was hard not to try one out. They're all  5-6ft tall with 4ft. of trunk, both singles and triples. Mine is planted on the south side of the house that is consistently 2 degrees Celsius warmer than the rest of the yard.

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kinzyjr
4 hours ago, Palmaceae said:

Many mature Royals survived the 80's freezes in the warmer areas of St Pete, but they were completely defoilated.

Interesting.  Do you happen to know if those areas stayed above 25F?

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Palmaceae
5 minutes ago, kinzyjr said:

Interesting.  Do you happen to know if those areas stayed above 25F?

At my place in south central St Pete, my lowest was 25F in the 80's and 98% of the royals survived. Even though it was 25F the duration below 32F was over 12 hours. 

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kinzyjr
Just now, Palmaceae said:

At my place in central St Pete, my lowest was 25F in the 80's and 98% of the royals survived. Even though it was 25F the duration below 32F was over 12 hours. 

Thanks for that piece of information.  I didn't get down here until 2003, so I didn't experience the 80s freezes first-hand here. 

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palmsOrl
11 hours ago, Jimbean said:

Daytona Beach is 9B and nowhere close to 10A.  It sounds like Norfolk Island pines are susceptible to long duration freezes.

In 2010, our 40 foot Norfolk Island Pine had only damage to the tiny new growth tips which means like 99% of the foliage was undamaged.  This was after 24F and lots of incessant cold and below freezing temperatures.  My large royals were defoliated but did both survive.

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kinzyjr
11 hours ago, palmsOrl said:

In 2010, our 40 foot Norfolk Island Pine had only damage to the tiny new growth tips which means like 99% of the foliage was undamaged.  This was after 24F and lots of incessant cold and below freezing temperatures.  My large royals were defoliated but did both survive.

We had very similar events in 2010.  Down here, we bottomed off at 26F twice, with a balmy 28F night in between.  The first time it hit 26F overnight, the high for the day was 37F.  Almost every royal in town and most of the foxtails survived with varying levels of burn (in most cases ~80%).  I had figured that 25F would be the cutoff for these, but that number apparently needs adjusted downward.

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Jimbean
33 minutes ago, kinzyjr said:

We had very similar events in 2010.  Down here, we bottomed off at 26F twice, with a balmy 28F night in between.  The first time it hit 26F overnight, the high for the day was 37F.  Almost every royal in town and most of the foxtails survived with varying levels of burn (in most cases ~80%).  I had figured that 25F would be the cutoff for these, but that number apparently needs adjusted downward.

I know royals can survive for short periods of 23F

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Estlander

 

On 12/29/2018, 10:35:14, Opal92 said:
On 12/29/2018, 10:35:14, Opal92 said:

 

Wow, you sure have found all the queens around there- I haven't seen many of those. I can see how if the area continues to have nothing colder than 9a temps, queens will become VERY prevalent. sure looks like they are almost common with your picture compilation, but they still aren't quite a widespread landscape staple at this point (more so to someone who doesn't live and drive around there a lot). Most of those are either planted post-2014 (like the ones at the Palms of Destin Resort) or they were 100% defoliated after that winter (with rare exception). 

I similarly remember in the mid/late 2000's, there was a big push for Phoenix roebelenni to become a landscape staple- they were being planted left and right everywhere. If it hadn't been for the freezes, they would be in almost everyone's front yard today.

 Thought I'd post a few more pics of Queens around Destin-Santa Rosa Beach area that I know of. Surprisingly there are quite a few P. Roebeleniis too.

The third one is the one that's been around at least since 2007. The fourth blurry one is a Queen in Fort Walton Beach that I've been keeping an eye on since at least 2010. I used to live in FWB until 2012 and I had been aware of it at least a couple of years before moving. Unfortunately I don't have a good pic of it. Just a very blurry Google Maps pic as it's by the house that's on a busy road and I just can't pull into someone's yard to take a pic of it, lol.

 

 

 

IMG_0349.JPG

IMG_0353.JPG

IMG_E0343.JPG

IMG_0361.PNG

Edited by Estlander

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Estlander

1.jpg

IMG_0360.jpg

IMG_0362.PNG

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Estlander

IMG_0364.jpg

IMG_0369.jpg

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Estlander

 

IMG_0367.jpg

Edited by Estlander

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Estlander

Here are the Robeleniis

IMG_0363.PNG

IMG_0365.PNG

IMG_0366.jpg

IMG_0370.jpg

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Estlander

And then there’s my young Queen, of course. It’s second winter in ground. It grew well the past summer and is now 11-12ft. tall. 

39AC466F-40A6-4C2F-9893-B5A58A1B165E.jpeg

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