Foxtail Palm (Desert) Sun Tolerance

[fernonvernon]

Hi, was wondering if anyone had some info/knowhow re the (max?) sun tolerance of Foxtail Palms?

The dog days here are no joke w/ temps easily in the 100s (high 30s/low 40s C). A lot of the more tropical pinnates burn up/barely make it, but some of the advice (online/locally) I've come across suggests that the Foxtail's on the sturdier/more desert-friendly side of things.

Would really appreciate some corroboration (or disagreement?).

 

 

 

Edited November 27, 2018 by fernonvernon

[RichAZ]

Beautiful palms but here in Arizona they need protection from the sun or they will fry and die pretty quickly.  Maybe an eastern exposure or filtered sun would be best?

[greysrigging]

Without specific knowledge of the climate in Dubai, I can only speculate...... I regard Foxtails as extremely sun hardy. Their natural range on Cape York Peninsular in far North Queensland has an extreme Wet/Dry climate..... nowhere near as hot as Dubai and much wetter of course. Similar climatic conditions to Dubai in Australia would be the arid Pilbara coast and adjacent inland regions of Western Australia. Foxtails do very well in these areas, although juveniles do get a bit scorched by the sun in summer. There must be thousands planted out in gardens in Karratha, Port Hedland, Dampier, Point Sampson and Wickham. Also see them in inland (  hotter and dryer ) towns too. With ample watering and a bit of sun protection while young they should thrive I'd say. The humble Carpentaria Palm ( climatically similar to the Foxtail ) also does well in coastal desert areas. they also love heat ( not as cold tolerant as the Foxtail ) Keep them well watered during the hottest months and back off the water somewhat during the cooler months. Foxtails do suffer a bit from poor soils/lack of minerals and nutrients which may give them a yellowed aspect, which can be mistaken for sunburn.

[fernonvernon]

Thanks a lot, I really appreciate the points of reference actually. There's v little info compiled hereabouts (about hereabouts)... makes sense given the rather transient nature of the place/consumer market, I guess (horticulture and late capitalism can work...but there's not a whole lot one can do about the simulacra most of the time so the hope is to find somewhat reasonably similar and better-catalogued situations (typically onliine)).

As one of those expats whose only really been in/around the ol' home state/the east coast I've very little first hand experience with say, Nevada or AZ... But via some of the (I think) closest/er approximations re certain conditions -- namely the heat and, in the case of W. Australia (a pretty large state, granted) some gutless/hydrophobic soil as well  -- I've managed to hodgepodge together/lean into some variation of modded info along the lines of "Az + humidity - nighttime lows" or "Western Australia w/ somewhat more traumatic summer highs". Supplemental water reqs are (depending on how one looks at it) impressive/obscene of course.

Really grateful for the regional examples btw: some of the coastal/inland locales' (Pilbara/Karatha) temp charts may come in handy when/if we decide to roll the dice here). 

 

Thanks again for responding. 

Edited December 1, 2018 by fernonvernon

[bubba]

I believe the Carpentaria Palm is beautiful and graceful. We have mass plantings of Foxtail Palms now (in direct sunlight) and not only is this palm not that attractive but it is extremely trashy (seeds,stains,seeds and stains).

[AZPalms]

I have a foxtail here in Phoenix. I’ll be honest, it struggles. I have it in about half day sun morning until noon. It pushed a spear this summer but still hasn’t opened. Fronds still crisped and was well watered. Wouldn’t personally be high on my “try” list. Just my experience though. 

[greysrigging]

Coastal Pilbara, WA ( I worked here on an Iron Ore Project for 3 years )

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roebourne,_Western_Australia

Inland Pilbara, WA.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marble_Bar,_Western_Australia

 

[greysrigging]

Looking at those summer stats for Dubai and Phoenix.... wow that is extreme prolonged heat. The Pilbara coast generally gets relief from the heat most summers with the passage of a Tropical Cyclone, upwards of 2 or 3 a season. The rain is always welcome from the cyclonic weather systems. Foxtails are tough but the summers in Dubai and Phoenix may well just a bit too tough !

[aztropic]

I'll agree,foxtails are a marginal palm in Phoenix, Arizona.That being said,I do have 1 that I put in on the south side of my house as a 5 gallon that is currently flowering.In fact,it may be the biggest one left in the state of Arizona.Cold,rather than 110+F heat,seems to do most of them in here.It's been my experience that 28 F in the dry desert seems to be their breaking point.Bottom line,if you're willing to make an effort to protect it from the extremes,they can be grown here.

 

aztropic

Mesa,Arizona

[aztropic]

A pic of the flowers.

 

aztropic

Mesa,Arizona

[greysrigging]

51 minutes ago, aztropic said:

I'll agree,foxtails are a marginal palm in Phoenix, Arizona.That being said,I do have 1 that I put in on the south side of my house as a 5 gallon that is currently flowering.In fact,it may be the biggest one left in the state of Arizona.Cold,rather than 110+F heat,seems to do most of them in here.It's been my experience that 28 F in the dry desert seems to be their breaking point.Bottom line,if you're willing to make an effort to protect it from the extremes,they can be grown here.

 

aztropic

Mesa,Arizona

That is a healthy looking Foxtail ! What is your soil like there ? Many of the ones in cultivation in Darwin ( which btw is very similar climatically to their natural habitat ) show distinct yellowing of the fronds, probably a combination of our poor shallow nutrient deficient soils and lack of water. And yeah, those frosty night temps.... now I'm no expert on growing them out of their zone, but in their natural habitat they wouldn't see night temps below 50f nor days below 75f. 

The desert town of Alice Springs in Central Australia ( no where near as hot as Phoenix, but still averages 100f in summer ) is a renowned frosty place in the Southern winter and I can't recall Foxtails growing there... too cold.

[greysrigging]

On 12/2/2018, 12:07:31, bubba said:

I believe the Carpentaria Palm is beautiful and graceful. We have mass plantings of Foxtail Palms now (in direct sunlight) and not only is this palm not that attractive but it is extremely trashy (seeds,stains,seeds and stains).

Ha ha, trust me..... The Carpentaria Palm is waaaaay trashier than a Foxtail.... in my misguided wisdom oh youth I planted dozens and dozens of the cursed things... lol. Yes, a pretty graceful palm, but oh, the fronds, the tons and tons of seed produced, which attract fruit bats, birds, bush rats... oh and did I mention the fronds !!!... Full trailer load to the dump every weekend.... Having said that, fast growers, beautiful when young, can handle our seasonal 'dry', self cleaning fronds....

[bubba]

Grey,

I hear you and truth be told, the same is true with all palms. Counted 10 coconuts on our street this morning (hit the deck)! Same with the Royal sheaths that rain down like small cars when they hit. Palms all carry and drop garbage galore.

As it relates to the Foxtail, these were embraced like the second coming of the coconut in our area. They simply are not that appealing and I would prefer the graceful Carpentaria palm to the Foxtail. 

It is humorous. You gifted us with the dreaded Melaleuca in SF and we gifted you with the ravenous Pond Apple! It is always something. Best, bubba 

[greysrigging]

Just now, bubba said:

 

I hear you and truth be told, the same is true with all palms. Counted 10 coconuts on our street this morning (hit the deck)! Same with the Royal sheaths that rain down like small cars when they hit. Palms all carry and drop garbage galore.

As it relates to the Foxtail, these were embraced like the second coming of the coconut in our area. They simply are not that appealing and I would prefer the graceful Carpentaria palm to the Foxtail. 

It is humorous. You gifted us with the dreaded Melaleuca in SF and we gifted you with the ravenous Pond Apple! It is always something. Best, bubba.

Haha....yeah.... thanks for that...

https://nt.gov.au/environment/weeds/weeds-in-the-nt/A-Z-list-of-weeds-in-the-NT/pond-apple

 

[aztropic]

5 hours ago, greysrigging said:

That is a healthy looking Foxtail ! What is your soil like there ? Many of the ones in cultivation in Darwin ( which btw is very similar climatically to their natural habitat ) show distinct yellowing of the fronds, probably a combination of our poor shallow nutrient deficient soils and lack of water. And yeah, those frosty night temps.... now I'm no expert on growing them out of their zone, but in their natural habitat they wouldn't see night temps below 50f nor days below 75f. 

The desert town of Alice Springs in Central Australia ( no where near as hot as Phoenix, but still averages 100f in summer ) is a renowned frosty place in the Southern winter and I can't recall Foxtails growing there... too cold.

They are much hardier than what their natural habitat would suggest.

Carpenteria actually are a little more cold hardier here than the foxtail.They are on par with the royals and take 26F without problems as royals defoliate at that temp.

Soil here is an alkaline heavy clay.Caribbean palms like Coccothrinax,Copernicia,and Pseudophoenix are the exotics that seem to do well.

aztropic

Mesa,Arizona

Edited December 4, 2018 by aztropic

[fernonvernon]

Tough to argue w those empiricals.

Tropicals (for lack of a better term) don't seem like the sanest thing to be doubling down on here. Almost feels like I'd be trying to navigate the qualifications (do appreciate all the input btw), and set up their inevitable death. A protected/healthy looking Foxtail in Az is appreciated/worthwhile though, thanks.

I was a bit kitch'd-out by how systematized the date palm was when I first visited the folks here until I got a load of the prolonged heat come July (the workaday highs seem to clock in @/around the Pilbara's record highs) and realized that there was (cultural/aesthetic mandates notwithstanding) a fairly sound reason behind this. I guess the date is a pinnate... but it does look like the the fan palms take the beating like real champs.  

I'd half-theorized that the lack of humidity and the nighttime temp drops in Arizona might've made practical comps less than ideal... but I think the dialogue between the big ball in the sky and the intended spot/site (in front of an eastern wall) is gonna have to dictate the terms here. 

[AZPalms]

On 12/3/2018, 3:53:50, aztropic said:

I'll agree,foxtails are a marginal palm in Phoenix, Arizona.That being said,I do have 1 that I put in on the south side of my house as a 5 gallon that is currently flowering.In fact,it may be the biggest one left in the state of Arizona.Cold,rather than 110+F heat,seems to do most of them in here.It's been my experience that 28 F in the dry desert seems to be their breaking point.Bottom line,if you're willing to make an effort to protect it from the extremes,they can be grown here.

 

aztropic

Mesa,Arizona

I’ve seen Scott’s Foxtail as well as his other palms in the garden and it’s incredible! His foxtail is a testimony to his skill and care. Here in Phoenix we have unique challenges with palms.  Brutal summer heat and sun, winters which can drop below freezing and dry air which all can outright itself be the death sentence to most palms and topicals. BUT with the right water amounts, sun exposure and placement, the list of what we can do here is actually incredible. 

*in my opinion* the one “exotic” make your neighbors wonder and are show stoppers are Roystoneas. I have 2 and they both do extremely well, grow fast and are hardy enough for most Phoenix weather conditions. I would pick up a nice Royal over a foxtail in a heartbeat. 

Edited December 5, 2018 by AZPalms

[bubba]

Az Tropic,

In reviewing your picture, the palm that knocks me out is the large and fat Bottle palm! How old is that fella? Bottles are rather sensitive to cold and that specimen makes a real statement about your Phoenix climate as well as your care of the palm. What minimum temperatures has it seen and have you had to protect it? Boldacious!

I could not agree more about your suggestion to go with a Royal over a Foxtail. I have not seen many Royals in Phoenix and believe they would make a beautiful addition throughout the desert SW. They are hardier than suggested by "literature" and now grow all the way to Jacksonville, Fl. Bartram drew the first Royal in the 1700's during his exploration of Florida and it was located in the St. Johns River in the Ocala Forest area.

[aztropic]

Bottle palm was planted from a HD 3 gallon about 16 years ago.It always looks its best this time of the year,right before nights start dipping into the 40's F. It does spot up over the winter,(as do my Gaussia species), even the mildest ones.It has completely defoliated a few times over the years and I do make an attempt to at least protect the crownshaft area if temps are predicted below 30F.Fortunately,the last few winters have not gone below 38F so I haven't had to worry about protecting anything.Coldest I've seen in my neighborhood in 23 years has been 23F although a "typical"winter I would expect to see maybe 4 or 5 nights touch between 29F to 32F.It is planted in the best microclimate of the yard,on the SE corner of the house,and gets winter sun as soon as it rises.

Royals are the hardiest crownshafted palm for the Phoenix area and there are a few dozen around the area that I have come across, but not common by any means.(I have 4 mature and several more with several feet of wood) Surprisingly,Carpentaria is as cold hardy out here as the royals,although they can be killed over our summer when the afternoon western sun bakes an unprotected trunk;due to the thinner trunk getting cooked.

 

aztropic

Mesa,Arizona

[greysrigging]

This is the yellowish coloring of street planted Foxtails in Darwin. Typically a sign of irregular watering and our nutrient deficient and shallow soils

[aztropic]

Yeah,nothing ever looks like that in the Phoenix area.Everything is either green or brown...

 

aztropic

Mesa,Arizona

[bubba]

I thought that yellowish hue was standard!

[greysrigging]

1 hour ago, bubba said:

I thought that yellowish hue was standard!

Haha.... well yes, it is very common in Darwin, although having said that, with generous applications of trace elements, NPK fertilizer, water and deep mulch, ( almost sounds like too much effort, doesn't it ? ) they are lovely and deep green, even in the sun.

[bubba]

Great pictures from Darwin! Thank you!