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First year protection T. fortunei


JSKeys

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First year protection for two T. fortunei. I hope they enjoy it since next year they may get a burlap windbreak and after that they're on their own (not counting mulching in the fall). The day started with sleet and it has now turned into snow.

FirstYearProtection.JPG

Edited by JSKeys
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It looks more like February than mid November in that picture!

Even small Fortunei's should be hardy down to 0F. I leave small seedlings out all winter and last year they withstood a brief low of 10F, and snow, with no damage. One's the size of yours probably don't need protecting until it gets below 5F, or if there is a major snowfall of a foot or more. Mature Fortunei's have surived -20F in Romania. That's not to say your's would survive that. But if your winter low is only say 10F, I wouldn't be worried. Having them buried in snow though is another thing entirely. 

I like the protection method, which looks on point. I just don't think it's necessary just yet. Not for another month or two. Fortunei's are the hardiest palm in the world. 

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Dry-summer Oceanic climate (9a)

Average annual precipitation - 18.7 inches : Average annual sunshine hours - 1725

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I think it's better safe than sorry.  Since this is her first winter in the ground I'd protect for anything below 20ºF - after she's established then can probably handle more cold.  I've heard reports of spear pull on small Trachys.  

Jon

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Jon Sunder

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40 minutes ago, Fusca said:

I think it's better safe than sorry.  Since this is her first winter in the ground I'd protect for anything below 20ºF - after she's established then can probably handle more cold.  I've heard reports of spear pull on small Trachys.  

Jon

Fair enough. No harm in being prepared and keeping them protected, I suppose. 

It depends on his normal winter low, and record low though. I am intrigued to know what low temps he can expect this year...?

Edited by UK_Palms
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Dry-summer Oceanic climate (9a)

Average annual precipitation - 18.7 inches : Average annual sunshine hours - 1725

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Can't speak for his record low in Baltimore but I lived in No. Va. for decades and lows fell to single digits Fahrenheit at some point nearly every winter. Our record low one Christmas Day in the early 80s was -7F. He's at least 30 miles further north and certainly colder. My house was probably in z7a, his in z6a/b. Coldest temps are still to come. Until a few months ago, my son lived in Rockville, Md just north and west of his old VA stomping ground and experienced harsher winters (z6b). Now he lives in Ellicott City close to Baltimore and should be colder yet.

I'm not entirely sure why a covering of snow is necessarily so bad. I've seen photos of Trachies, Sabals and needles buried in it. At least snow will insulate the palms from arctic fronts that follow snowstorms.

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Meg

Palms of Victory I shall wear

Cape Coral (It's Just Paradise)
Florida
Zone 10A on the Isabelle Canal
Elevation: 15 feet

I'd like to be under the sea in an octopus' garden in the shade.

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1 hour ago, UK_Palms said:

It looks more like February than mid November in that picture!

Even small Fortunei's should be hardy down to 0F. I leave small seedlings out all winter and last year they withstood a brief low of 10F, and snow, with no damage. One's the size of yours probably don't need protecting until it gets below 5F, or if there is a major snowfall of a foot or more. Mature Fortunei's have surived -20F in Romania. That's not to say your's would survive that. But if your winter low is only say 10F, I wouldn't be worried. Having them buried in snow though is another thing entirely. 

I like the protection method, which looks on point. I just don't think it's necessary just yet. Not for another month or two. Fortunei's are the hardiest palm in the world. 

I was mainly worried about the predicted freezing rain. First year I usually try to give protection from precipitation and wind (but no supplemental heat) and then after that it depends. I have established T. fortunei, R. hystix and S. minor as well and they are on their own and do well. The windmills may lose some fronds but they come back strong and add growth the next summer.

Thanks for the comments.

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The snow is actually an excellent insulator. The deepest frosts when I lived up north were always the years without much snow pack, Sometimes the ground was frozen more then 4' down. 

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The only thing that would worry me would be water getting in the spear (a lot) when young. One year I had a trachy that had completely green fronds spear pull. But that was after a very long period of cold and wet. 

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PalmTreeDude

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Just a friendly fyi - Temp sensor in there or the sun will fry them if this is sealed.

Edited by Allen
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YouTube https://www.youtube.com/@tntropics - 60+ In-ground 7A palms - (Sabal) minor(7 large + 27 seedling size, 3 dwarf),  brazoria(1) , birmingham(4), etonia (1) louisiana(5), palmetto (1), riverside (1),  (Trachycarpus) fortunei(7), wagnerianus(1),  Rhapidophyllum hystrix(7),  15' Mule-Butia x Syagrus(1),  Blue Butia capitata(1) +Tons of tropical plants.  Recent Yearly Lows -1F, 12F, 11F, 18F, 16F, 3F, 3F, 6F, 3F, 1F, 16F, 17F, 6F, 8F

 

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1 hour ago, Allen said:

Just a friendly fyi - Temp sensor in there or the sun will fry them if this is sealed.

Thanks for the hint. You can't see it in the picture but I have bricks at each corner and center to hold it off the ground and I put grommets in by the curve on each side to let it vent. Our winters are very twitchy and even though it is snowing in Nov. we could have 60's in Dec! But it never hurts to get a reminder to keep an eye on it so I don't have fried windmills come spring.

Edited by JSKeys
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10 hours ago, PalmatierMeg said:

Can't speak for his record low in Baltimore but I lived in No. Va. for decades and lows fell to single digits Fahrenheit at some point nearly every winter. Our record low one Christmas Day in the early 80s was -7F. He's at least 30 miles further north and certainly colder. My house was probably in z7a, his in z6a/b. Coldest temps are still to come. Until a few months ago, my son lived in Rockville, Md just north and west of his old VA stomping ground and experienced harsher winters (z6b). Now he lives in Ellicott City close to Baltimore and should be colder yet.

I'm not entirely sure why a covering of snow is necessarily so bad. I've seen photos of Trachies, Sabals and needles buried in it. At least snow will insulate the palms from arctic fronts that follow snowstorms.

-7F is brutally cold, considering you're so far south at around 38/39N. I'm at latitude 51N and the coldest I have ever seen here is around 10F. We're roughly level, latitude-wise, with Saskatoon in Canada, both around 51/52N, yet Saskatoon's record low is -51F, which is more than 60F colder than our record low. Absolute world's apart. It makes it hard for me to get a perception of North American weather patterns, because it is so radically different. Like I would never expect 38N to get down to -7F, or colder! That's why I was so shocked the other day to see Houston (lat 29N) registering a high of just 40F the other day, when our high at lat 51N was 20F warmer, at a balmy 60F! Crazy. 

Dry-summer Oceanic climate (9a)

Average annual precipitation - 18.7 inches : Average annual sunshine hours - 1725

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From my experience I wouldnt worry til we start getting an event like last year. My trachycarpus burned in my tent as our area warms up alot and that enclosure will bake them for sure! Get a temp sensor and honestly would only put the tent on for 15 to 20f and bellow. I had 5 out of 7 spear pull last year after seeing single digits for a LONG time. Took nearly 250 hours bellow freezing, which is rare for us, to get them to pull but most of the seeable damage was from the 85f day before I could get the tent open. I have yet to put my lights out for mine and I'm in Mount airy area. Depending on where you are in the county you could be better off than me. 

 

@PalmatierMeg Baltimore has solid zone 8 in the south and southeast and unless in the northwest part of the county has a similar or milder climate than Nova. 

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LOWS 16/17 12F, 17/18 3F, 18/19 7F, 19/20 20F

Palms growing in my garden: Trachycarpus Fortunei, Chamaerops Humilis, Chamaerops Humilis var. Cerifera, Rhapidophyllum Hystrix, Sabal Palmetto 

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7 hours ago, UK_Palms said:

-7F is brutally cold, considering you're so far south at around 38/39N. I'm at latitude 51N and the coldest I have ever seen here is around 10F. We're roughly level, latitude-wise, with Saskatoon in Canada, both around 51/52N, yet Saskatoon's record low is -51F, which is more than 60F colder than our record low. Absolute world's apart. It makes it hard for me to get a perception of North American weather patterns, because it is so radically different. Like I would never expect 38N to get down to -7F, or colder! That's why I was so shocked the other day to see Houston (lat 29N) registering a high of just 40F the other day, when our high at lat 51N was 20F warmer, at a balmy 60F! Crazy. 

Your UK climate is quite the anomaly - very mild compared to Canada at a similar latitude. Yours is more of a maritime climate as you are surrounded by water that moderates it. You also have the Gulf Stream flowing nearby. Your summers aren't particularly warm nor your winters as cold as on the continents. In winter the Eastern US is subject to Arctic fronts that plunge down through Canada all the way to S. TX and SFL then move east into the Atlantic. Summers are usually hot to very hot and sweltering. So, it is quite possible in the Mid-Atlantic area around Washington to set a summer record of 105F and a winter record of -5F. Seldom happens but has in recorded history. Challenging climate. I haven't lived there in 26 years so it's possible that rampant development and urban heat effect have blunted those temp extremes. But Mother Nature always has the final say.

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Meg

Palms of Victory I shall wear

Cape Coral (It's Just Paradise)
Florida
Zone 10A on the Isabelle Canal
Elevation: 15 feet

I'd like to be under the sea in an octopus' garden in the shade.

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@PalmatierMeg Yeah, you're precisely right. The fact we are an island, and surrounded by water, keeps our temperature moderated throughout the year. We don't have extremes on either end of the spectrum, although summers can still be pretty hot here, and get up to 100F, with us seeing 97/98F at least once or twice, most years. This summer just gone was one of our hottest on record. I actually had a Phoenix Dactylifera and several Washingtonia's die due to drought believe it or not, but that was because they were in pots and weren't watered enough. We had an 11 week drought without a drop of rain, between mid May - early August, and temps above 85F every day during that time. 

Generally our lowest temp of the year is around 19/20F, but last winter was a very cold one-off, when it dropped down to 12F. That was the coldest I have ever seen it, but generally it doesn't drop below 20F all winter. At 51N, it's probably the furthest north in the world where I can get away with overwintering a CIDP outdoors, in a pot, on my patio. I did the same last year, but had to move it to the garage for 2/3 days when the record cold front hit, bringing the temp down to 12F. Usually the CIDP remains on the patio unprotected where it has survived the past 4 winters. Of course, it might be a few degrees warmer on the patio, next to the house, which probably helps. 

I would argue that our climate borders on cold Mediterranean, given that we only get 21 inches of rain a year... compared to 50 inches in NYC, 40 inches in DC, and 60 inches in Miami. We actually get less rain than Rome or Barcelona, so we are pretty damn dry here, for an oceanic/maritime climate. When it does rain, it is so light that it barely amounts to anything. That is another reason why Phoenix's, Washingtonia & Jubaea seem to do okay here, besides the mild temps. Of course I am in the warmest, driest part of the country though. The north and west of the UK are a different story entirely. Colder and wetter. 

I see even Tallahassee in Florida, at 29N, has a record low temperature of -2F, which is 9 degrees F lower/colder than my record low, here at 51N. That just seems crazy to me. Those are temperatures I would expect to see in Sweden and Iceland, here in Europe. Challenging indeed for you guys in the eastern states. Respect to you guys. 

Edited by UK_Palms

Dry-summer Oceanic climate (9a)

Average annual precipitation - 18.7 inches : Average annual sunshine hours - 1725

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Just as an observation I think Texas (in General) has some of the most daunting weather for growing palms. They seem to have the most drastic swings from one spectrum to the next in such short time, from temperature to precipitation it's just difficult. Those of us in the SE seem to have snaps but not to the same degree or at least not nearly as often. 

 

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When my palms were in the ground I just protected them as needed (like I assume you’re doing), I think shielding them from the rain/heavy snow and insulating them from zone 7 temperatures is essential in their first year at least. My small Trachys were left unprotected for at least 90% of the winter and did fine.

I tried to mimic conditions out west where the dryness helps add hardiness (and prevents crown/root rot), I don’t know if it helped or not but I made sure no rain touched at all them during Jan/Feb, no matter how mild temperatures were.

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