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ruskinPalms

Which crownshafted palms are good for Florida 9B

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Eric in Orlando

In 9b in central Florida , under some canopy is best for crownshaft palms.

Some that have grown well for years here at Leu Gardens;

Archontophoenix- all have done well, A. cunninghamiana is the hardiest, A. purpurea the most tender

Burretiokentia hapala

Chambeyronia macrocarpa

Clinostigma savoryanum

Cyphophoenix nucele

Cyphosperma balansae

Dictyosperma album

Dypsis leptocheilos- we have a couple specimens planted back in 1994 that seed

Dypsis madagascariensis (single trunked form)

Dypsis plumosa

Dypsis robusta

Euterpe edulis- great palm for warm parts of 9b

Kentiopsis oliviformis

Normanbya normanbyi

Ptychosperma elegans- hardier than Adonidia

Roystonea- all seem similar in hardiness except R. oleracea is more tender

Satakentia liukiuensis

Veitchia arecina

Wodyetia bifurcata

Wodyetia bifurcata X Veitchia arecina

 

Clustering palms;

Areca triandra

Dypsis baronii

Dypsis madagascariensis

Dypsis onilahensis

Dypsis pembana

Dypsis psammophila

Hydriastele wendlandiana

Pinanga coronata

Pinanga philippinensis

Ptychosperma macarthurii

 

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Merlyn2220

You see Dypsis Lutescens / Areca palms a lot in Central Florida, mostly because the big box stores carry them.  After the January 2018 freeze most of them had some damage but didn't die if it was either sheltered from E/NE wind or under canopy.  I saw quite a few large completely dead clumps that were out in the open.  My neighbor had a ~5 year old clump under canopy but with direct E/NE wind exposure, and 3/4 of it died.  It's regrowing but is still less than 1/2 the size it was last summer.  It officially hit 25F on the 18th here in Sanford with 15mph winds, so I'm surprised they lived at all.

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RedRabbit
15 hours ago, Eric in Orlando said:

Dictyosperma album

Satakentia liukiuensis

Veitchia arecina

I'm surprised you included these 3 as potential 9b palms. They seem ambitious, but I trust your judgement. 

Speaking of Satakentias, I've got to get one for my place in Sarasota. Gorgeous palm. :D

Edited by RedRabbit
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Eric in Orlando

These have all been good here at Leu in protected locations. Our oldest V. arecina was planted back in 2000 and is about 30ft tall. It flowers but no seeds yet. We have another planted in 2006 in heavy shade. It was a triple stem specimen. The largest one has stretched up to about 20ft.

Our oldest Dictyosperma was planted back in 1996. It is only about 10ft tall but is growing near some large clumps of timber bamboo. The bamboo can really restrict growth. But it has tolerated the freezes well here so I have planted others since. The form formerly called var. rubrum seems to be very tender when young. 

Satakentia has performed well in protected locations. We have several in different areas that are developing clear trunk. They haven't shown to be super cold sensitive. They are slightly more tender than Wodyetia in cool and cold hardiness but hardier than Adonidia. They are sensitive to dry conditions. The specimen that is growing the best is growing in wet, heavy soil.

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Zeeth

For what it's worth, my Satakentia didn't damage this past winter at 27-28˚ F

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RedRabbit
3 hours ago, Eric in Orlando said:

These have all been good here at Leu in protected locations. Our oldest V. arecina was planted back in 2000 and is about 30ft tall. It flowers but no seeds yet. We have another planted in 2006 in heavy shade. It was a triple stem specimen. The largest one has stretched up to about 20ft.

Our oldest Dictyosperma was planted back in 1996. It is only about 10ft tall but is growing near some large clumps of timber bamboo. The bamboo can really restrict growth. But it has tolerated the freezes well here so I have planted others since. The form formerly called var. rubrum seems to be very tender when young. 

Satakentia has performed well in protected locations. We have several in different areas that are developing clear trunk. They haven't shown to be super cold sensitive. They are slightly more tender than Wodyetia in cool and cold hardiness but hardier than Adonidia. They are sensitive to dry conditions. The specimen that is growing the best is growing in wet, heavy soil.

Wow, it is hard to believe Veitchia and Dictyosperma have been able to survive ~20yrs in Orlando. You're making miracles happen over there Eric! Nice job! :D:greenthumb:

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ruskinPalms

Thanks Eric for the list of suggestions. I was driving around my neighborhood tonight and saw that someone had V. arecina planted in their front yard and a couple actually had some fruit or flowers on them. They did look a little crusty, covered in lichens and showed some evidence of trunk damage in the past. So I guess I will try the V. arecina seedlings that I have growing from a really old tree in west Bradenton in the ground once they are big enough. Just always thought these were really tender since I did have some at my house in Ruskin that seemed like they got burned a lot in winter. 

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sonoranfans

the last 7-8 years have been quite warm.  We could have a cold burn every other year.  that would change what can recover.   Also when people say protected they usually mean wind and canopy protection.  Without it many of these crownshafted species will be outright killed in 9B.

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Eric in Orlando

Definitely with some canopy.

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Walt

I have a Hyophorbe verschaffeltii with several feet of trunk that has done quite well for me over the years. I have it planted under high tree canopy and it's never been frost/cold damaged since I planted it (when it had no trunk). Since it has done so well for me I bought another small one this spring from Home Depot.

As far as zone 9b, that really covers a lot of ground, as there is a marked difference between the bottom of zone 9b and the top. Getting down to 25 degrees with many more hours of duration under 30 degrees is much worse than dropping, say to 29-29.99 degrees for much fewer hours of duration.

The three winters prior to the last my low temperature (for just one night) dropped between 30-32 degrees. Last winter my  one and only low below 32 degrees was around 28 degrees, sometime around mid February, I believe. Many of my crownshaft palms (in the open) and my coconut palm were burned, but have since mostly regrown. If all my winters were no worse than this past winter, I could go on growing many crown shaft palms indefinitely. But if each winter I hit the bottom of zone 9b, and several times a winter at that, I highly doubt if I would still have as many crown shaft palms as I do, unless maybe all were grown under tree canopy. I know for me, high tree canopy gives my crown shaft palms another (or close to it) 5 degrees of low temperature, as these palms don't get frost damage.

 

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dmc

Eric, 

Whats the experience with 

Normanbya normanbyi or anyone else who is growing in Florida?

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Eric in Orlando
On 11/9/2018, 8:21:16, Walt said:

I have a Hyophorbe verschaffeltii with several feet of trunk that has done quite well for me over the years. I have it planted under high tree canopy and it's never been frost/cold damaged since I planted it (when it had no trunk). Since it has done so well for me I bought another small one this spring from Home Depot.

As far as zone 9b, that really covers a lot of ground, as there is a marked difference between the bottom of zone 9b and the top. Getting down to 25 degrees with many more hours of duration under 30 degrees is much worse than dropping, say to 29-29.99 degrees for much fewer hours of duration.

The three winters prior to the last my low temperature (for just one night) dropped between 30-32 degrees. Last winter my  one and only low below 32 degrees was around 28 degrees, sometime around mid February, I believe. Many of my crownshaft palms (in the open) and my coconut palm were burned, but have since mostly regrown. If all my winters were no worse than this past winter, I could go on growing many crown shaft palms indefinitely. But if each winter I hit the bottom of zone 9b, and several times a winter at that, I highly doubt if I would still have as many crown shaft palms as I do, unless maybe all were grown under tree canopy. I know for me, high tree canopy gives my crown shaft palms another (or close to it) 5 degrees of low temperature, as these palms don't get frost damage.

 

Hyophorbe verschaffeltii is one I forgot. It has some cold hardiness and I see some aroung growing well in protected spots. I got one last year on a big markdown at a big box store. It looked fine, not sure why it was reduced. I went ahead and planted it when I got it, late November. It didn't have a long time to establish. We had one night at my house of 27f. It had no damage but is growing under tree canopy. A nearby Gaussia attenuata also had no damage while an Aiphanes horrida and Gaussia maya were defoliated.

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Eric in Orlando
2 hours ago, dmc said:

Eric, 

Whats the experience with 

Normanbya normanbyi or anyone else who is growing in Florida?

It grows well, hadiness similar to Wodyetia. It is a bit slower and not very drought toerant, needs water. Also likes some shade as a juvenile. We have 2 mature specimens at Leu Gardens, been planted out for appx 20 years. They flower every year and set fruit. But they always flower in fall so the fruit drop in winter before they mature. 

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palmsOrl

I was at Cocoa Beach yesterday and I have to say, it is now replete with tropical crownshaft palms.  Coconuts are more than just an occasional sight and royals, Dypsis lutescens, Adonidia, solitaires and foxtails are everywhere.  I also saw Hyophorbe lagencaulis.  This was not the case the 20 years ago and there is definitely alot more than even 10 years ago.

I am staying in Winter Park and I am noticing that mature sized foxtails are in vogue for landscaping projects.  Dypsis lutescens are common and have been for 10-20 years+ as many are getting quite tall.

Edited by palmsOrl
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Eric in Orlando

Cocoa Beach has always had lots of zone 10 palms. Many wiped out in the 12/89 freeze. But within 5 years lots had been replanted and now lots of mature specimens. Its a borderline 10b climate.

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palmsOrl

I could swear it has even more now than say 10 years ago.  Maybe I am misremembering. 

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Walt
6 hours ago, Eric in Orlando said:

Hyophorbe verschaffeltii is one I forgot. It has some cold hardiness and I see some aroung growing well in protected spots. I got one last year on a big markdown at a big box store. It looked fine, not sure why it was reduced. I went ahead and planted it when I got it, late November. It didn't have a long time to establish. We had one night at my house of 27f. It had no damage but is growing under tree canopy. A nearby Gaussia attenuata also had no damage while an Aiphanes horrida and Gaussia maya were defoliated.

I thought you inadvertently overlooked the spindle palm from your list. Mine is planted between three A. alexander palms and also beneath a slash pine canopy. It was battered quite a bit by Hurricane Irma but has since outgrown the frond damage. The small spindle I just bought and planted last April is not under canopy and also gets more sunlight. If need be, I may protect it on nights calling for frost, but covering it with a flannel sheet. I found just keeping the frost off of foliage, the foliage can take another five degrees of cold, in general.

Spindle palm 11-10-18.jpg

Spndle palm wax.jpg

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FishEyeAquaculture

I grew up in Cocoa Beach, and all I ever remember were Queens, Sabals, and some D. lutescens (but planted right up against the homes).  I remember my mother making such a big deal about planting a triple P. roebelenii, and making it my job to wrap them up in bed sheets whenever we would have a cold night.  This was 80s-90s, and I moved away from home in 2002.  When I bring my family there now for a visit, I am shocked at the tropical variety that seems to be thriving.

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Eric in Orlando

Prior to the big 1989 freeze I remember quite a few mature royal palms, especially in the neighborhood just north of Ron Jons. Some of these survived. Also coconuts, Adonidia, Dypsis lutescens and some spindle palms. I dont remember any bottles. Also a few king palms, solitaires, and a couple Dictyosperma. I surfed back then and would explore around when I surfed over there, from Cape Canaveral down to Patrick AFB. I would also collect seeds. A more diverse plantings started in the mid to late 90s. And there are many more coconts than before the 80s freezes.

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sonoranfans

I have an alexander triple that started under a big net (saved it in 2010 for sure), then an expanding oak canopy and many warm winters, and last year pre freeze, I hacked that canopy out as the palms need more vertical room to grow.   They were defoliated in last feb 29(?) degree advective cold, but snapped back strong, fastest recovering of my crownshaft palms.  My triple grows very well in my wind protected, part sun back yard.  But I know winter is nigh and that triple could be gone in a couple months.  The importance of canopy is about 3-5 degrees here.  So when I hear someone say a palm survived 25 degrees the first question I have is: under canopy?  Now some of you people use heating and lights, but I'm not going to fall out of a tree doing that.   But I know my alexandre triples days were shortened when I hacken the canopy away.  If you don't have canopy and will be disappointed by a kill off, maybe one third of these palms listed will be hardy.  Its really pretty simple.  If you want to grow 10a palms in 9b, get canopy!

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ruskinPalms

Thanks everyone for suggestions. Unfortunately the only thing resembling canopy in my yard are two foxtail palms which got fairly damaged this last winter when it went down to probably 27F. Took them until May or June to resume growing normal spears and the look only adequate now. That being said, they spent several years in pots and moved around with me for a while before I put them in the ground so I’m not sure they would ever achieve their full glory even in a perfect climate. My one A. cunninghamiana definitely took the least damage of my crownshafted palms out in the open, not under canopy and not near the house. It never really missed a beat and kept growing normally immediately following the freezes this last winter. Of note, we had a record warm February following that nasty January last year that probably saved a lot of zone 10 palms and coconuts in central FL. 

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kinzyjr
9 minutes ago, ruskinPalms said:

Thanks everyone for suggestions. Unfortunately the only thing resembling canopy in my yard are two foxtail palms which got fairly damaged this last winter when it went down to probably 27F. Took them until May or June to resume growing normal spears and the look only adequate now. That being said, they spent several years in pots and moved around with me for a while before I put them in the ground so I’m not sure they would ever achieve their full glory even in a perfect climate. My one A. cunninghamiana definitely took the least damage of my crownshafted palms out in the open, not under canopy and not near the house. It never really missed a beat and kept growing normally immediately following the freezes this last winter. Of note, we had a record warm February following that nasty January last year that probably saved a lot of zone 10 palms and coconuts in central FL. 

These folks might be able to help you generate some canopy in a reasonable amount of time (for the right price): http://www.sptreefarm.com/buy-big-live-oaks-tree-wholesale-grower-nursery-inventory-trees.html

Depending on the size of the area you want to "canopy" you might only need one.

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RedRabbit

I like Tipuana tipu for canopy in 9b. :)

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Reeverse
21 hours ago, kinzyjr said:

These folks might be able to help you generate some canopy in a reasonable amount of time (for the right price): http://www.sptreefarm.com/buy-big-live-oaks-tree-wholesale-grower-nursery-inventory-trees.html

Depending on the size of the area you want to "canopy" you might only need one.

Those are Nice Oaks! Big Money for one though. 

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kinzyjr
19 hours ago, RedRabbit said:

I like Tipuana tipu for canopy in 9b. :)

 

43 minutes ago, Reeverse said:

Those are Nice Oaks! Big Money for one though. 

I'm sure ~$2500 could buy a lot of palms, but it can also protect a lot of marginal palms ;)  RedRabbit's suggestion above is supposed to be a pretty fast growing alternative.  I've never tried one myself since I already have live oak, but if you can't pay for or wait on a live oak (or are allergic to them), an interesting tree it would be.  A 100+ foot umbrella in this case: https://selectree.calpoly.edu/tree-detail/tipuana-tipu

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Eric in Orlando

Tipu Trees usually top out at around 30-40ft tall in Florida. They are fast growing with a nice canopy and yellow flowers in May and June. They are also reasonably cold tolerant to about 25f before any damage occurs. They also do well in hurricanes if they are grown right. Start with a smaller tree for best root production. Larger container trees can often have a bad root shape and can be circling or girdling. Also prune to shape proper branch development when young. That way a strong canopy and root system develops. Give it room, it can get a good sized root system so don't plant it near a house foundation. Look for some awesome specimens of Tipu around the Disney Parks and at Universal in Orlando. I have seen a few in yards too.

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kinzyjr
1 minute ago, Eric in Orlando said:

Tipu Trees usually top out at around 30-40ft tall in Florida. They are fast growing with a nice canopy and yellow flowers in May and June. They are also reasonably cold tolerant to about 25f before any damage occurs. They also do well in hurricanes if they are grown right. Start with a smaller tree for best root production. Larger container trees can often have a bad root shape and can be circling or girdling. Also prune to shape proper branch development when young. That way a strong canopy and root system develops. Give it room, it can get a good sized root system so don't plant it near a house foundation. Look for some awesome specimens of Tipu around the Disney Parks and at Universal in Orlando. I have seen a few in yards too.

Do they get the wide canopy that the specimens in California do?

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Eric in Orlando
15 hours ago, kinzyjr said:

Do they get the wide canopy that the specimens in California do?

They get a nice rounded crown but proportionate to the tree. Here are 3 growing at EPCOT.

tip1.jpg

tip2.jpg

tip3.JPG

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Reeverse

Tipu looks like a good fast grower for those needing canopy quick. I'm blessed with live oak/sabal canopy at my new house. Starting from scratch though. 

20181113_150339.jpg

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Ben in Norcal

Isn't Tipu deciduous?  That's why I have never planted one.

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kinzyjr
1 hour ago, Ben in Norcal said:

Isn't Tipu deciduous?  That's why I have never planted one.

After hearing this tree brought up numerous times as a canopy tree, I looked into this.  It looks like you are right about it being deciduous, or at least semi-deciduous.  Live oak is considered semi-deciduous, so no difference there.  After some research, it appears the roots have a tendency to raise concrete or clog drains and the branches aren't that strong.  These are the sources I looked at:

https://selectree.calpoly.edu/tree-detail/tipuana-tipu

http://www.environment.gov.au/cgi-bin/biodiversity/invasive/weeds/weeddetails.pl?taxon_id=67959

https://davesgarden.com/guides/pf/go/67862/

From the look of it, it has its own pros and cons, but  worth considering if you can keep it away from your house, hardscaping, and water lines.

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RedRabbit
34 minutes ago, kinzyjr said:

After hearing this tree brought up numerous times as a canopy tree, I looked into this.  It looks like you are right about it being deciduous, or at least semi-deciduous.  Live oak is considered semi-deciduous, so no difference there.  After some research, it appears the roots have a tendency to raise concrete or clog drains and the branches aren't that strong. 

From the look of it, it has its own pros and cons, but  worth considering if you can keep it away from your house, hardscaping, and water lines.

Yeah, it isn't perfect but no tree is. I think I read they lose their leaves in the spring so they should be able to provide good winter protection. 

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Eric in Orlando
On 11/12/2018, 5:26:54, kinzyjr said:

 

They retain a good amount of foliage. They never go bare until spring. When the new growth starts the old foliage drops.

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ruskinPalms

Tipu seems like a great tree for canopy for a large yard. My yard may be a little small for that in the long run. I’ve thought about planting Tabebuia before as well but they are probably a lot slower growing than tipu. 

It seems like overall I’m probably best off to invest in larger foxtails, royals and A. cunninghamiana since significant overhead dicot canopy isn’t likely to happen in my postage stamp back yard. I guess one of the major reasons I really like palms is that they don’t take up too much space and they don’t block out all of the sky. I do enjoy seeing the stars at night and sunsets and sunrises ;-) 

i know a lot of us on here go for the jungle look which is what I did at my last house in Ruskin which ultimately turned into a blob of palms and trees making it difficult to approeciate the unfettered form of a solitary palm. I’m trying a more subtle approach at my new house in Parrish going more for a specimen palm look with enough space between the larger species for them to be fully appreciated. I guess i started this thread to see if anything had been discovered in the last 10 years that really can take Florida 9B, meaning without tricks like planting under canopy or right next to a house/building. On the bright side, I have a couple majesty palms and a Bismarck palm planted which are fully 9B hardy which will provide some overhead canopy in the future. Could have used queen palms for the same purpose, and when watered and fertilized they really are beautiful palms.

Thanks all!

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