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ruskinPalms

Which crownshafted palms are good for Florida 9B

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ruskinPalms

Hello! Looking for suggestions for crownshafted palms that can make it long term in Florida 9B. As far as I know, crownshafted palms just don’t do well long term in Florida 9B except for maybe Roystonea regia and Wodyetia bifurcata. And these have to be planted large to make it unless you get lucky and have a string of 5 or more winters that stay above freezing so they get big before they encounter a freeze. I personally lost 3 smaller foxtails last winter with 1 to 2 rings of trunk but my 3 larger foxtails managed to pull through and have regrown normal crowns just in time for winter again ;-)

I’ve heard K. oliviformis and A. cunninghamiana are good for Florida 9B and I do have one A. cunninghamiana in my yard and it did indeed take less damage than my foxtails last winter. 

Thinking about getting a K. oliviformis but I really don’t want to waste money on one if it’s not going to make it long term. 

Any suggestions are appreciated. Thanks!

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Fusca

I would concur with your selections but from what I understand the Archontophoenix maxima or A. cunninghamiana var. illawarra might be a better choice due to its speed of growth.  My zone of 9a has much few choices! 

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sonoranfans

If you are in ruskin how far are you from the bay?  My daughter lives there a mile from the bay and its a very warm 9B.  I am in palmetto district, near the 75/275 and I have 4 kentiopsis and 6 archies in the ground(alexandre, myolensis, maxima).  The archies came back very fast from the cold snap last year, the kentiopsis about half as fast.  I also have dypsis pembana, dypsis leptocheilos x decaryi(tribear), dypsis lutecens and chamberyonia  macrocarpa.   All took the 28-29 this year with foliage damage but came back.  I bought most of my archies, the tribear, and the kentiopsis from Mike Evans on this board.  You should message him and plan a visit to his nursery.  He has lots of possibilities and is very knowledgeable on growing the crownshafted possibilities in our area.

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ruskinPalms

I actually live is Parrish now a couple miles farther inland than the 75/275 junction. It’s colder here. I’m guessing it was was 26 to 27 here last winter judging by what people’s weather stations were saying near me. My screen name is still ruskinpalms because as far as I know I can’t change it or else I’d make it parrishpalms now :D

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sonoranfans

My smallest Kentiopsis also made it through the 2010 freeze as a small 3 gallon size seedling, and was defoliated except for the intact spear.  It came back slowly but has almost 2' of clear trunk now.  In that 2010 freeze I had 3 7-15 gallon size royals and foxtails die.  Once the Kentiopsis get some size they will be more cold tolerant and they also can come back quicker from defoliation.  If you want a larger kentiopsis(they are slow from a seedling), Ken Johnson has always had those with several ft of trunk for a very reasonable price.  I purchased (3) KO from ken that had from 3'-6' of clear trunk in 2011.  Today they have 8-13' of clear trunk.  They are slower than archies coming back but will take  ~2 degrees more cold than all archies except for cunninghaniana.  Id also get the dypsis pembana, great smaller palm for this area.  the pembana can be single trunk or multi, I have both.

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sonoranfans

ah you are in a cooler area, east of me the royals are less prevalent.  I'd say even smaller royals and foxtails are going to be an issue depending on how many miles east of 75.  I am only a half mile east of 75.  We have had a warm 6-7 years run, cocos planted in the interim are all around my neighborhood waiting for their demise.  Did the big royals in your area get totally fried from the freeze?  A advective event( generally not warmer at height) for 4 hrs or more at 26-27 should have fried all the leaves.  If you want self shedding palms(easy maintenance when larger) sabal causiarum and and baileyana could be good choices.  they are not crownshafted but they do shed their own when they get some size.

 

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sonoranfans

 so 1 1/2 miles east of 75 is a bit of a dropoff, I'd be thinking about growing some canopy to help in winter and you should be able to grow the chamberryonia, kentiopsis, A cunningnamiana, and possibly the tribear.  ALso take a look at beccariophoenix alfredii, its not crownshafted but they are gorgeous tropical looking feather palms and should take your cold long term as established palms.  They are probably hardier than any archie or kentiosis, and they have huge canopies when they get big.

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kinzyjr

@ruskinPalms

I'm way farther inland in Lakeland.  The top three in my mind you already listed (roystonea regia,  wodyetia bifurcata, and archontophoenix cunninghamiana).  Most of our royals survived 2010 and the advective event in January 2018.  There are a lot of new foxtails around town that made it through the advective freeze last winter after only a single growing season in the ground. 

There are a few archontophoenix cunninghamiana around, which are probably a little tougher than the other two, but just less common.  In particular, there is a really nice one in Bartow on Wilson Avenue south of the post office.

The suggestion for canopy by @sonoranfans is an excellent one.  It makes a big difference in radiational freezes, and can help slightly with advective freezes if you have have some plantings or fences that serve as windbreaks.

So you have a frame of reference, the January low recorded for Parrish, FL was 28F and has been amended to 28F for Lakeland as well (weather.com).  Other sites had reported our low at 24F or 25F previously, but my weather station registered 28.2F.  It seems our climates are very similar.

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ruskinPalms

Royals seemed to take 75% foliage damage. Foxtails probably 10% to 50% foliage damage but the royals immediately resumed normal growth. Took much longer for foxtails to resume normal growth with many in the neighborhood still looking stunted and deformed. Then again there are some fruiting larger foxtails in the neighborhood too so I guess there is some variation and definitely the bigger the better for the foxtails. Lots of Adonidia in the neighborhood too. Some got whacked but most did fine and some are even flowering/fruiting now. The only cocos I have seen in my neighborhood is in my backyard so I’m guessing not a good choice here but it’s one of those palms all of us palm nuts has to try at least once:D  

my coconut took less damage than my foxtails but it is in a very sheltered spot next to my back porch with north winds blocked by the house and good southern exposure to catch the first light of dawn in the winter. 

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Xerarch

Chamaedorea radicalis

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sonoranfans

If you like the way a coco looks, you will like Beccariophoenix alfredii.  Personally, I like the looks of beccariophoenix better even when both are healthy.  The beccariophoenix will hold more leaves and have slightly more bend in the petioles.  One caveat, the beccariophoenix are notably more impressive when grown in 6+ hrs of direct sun.  They tend to hold less leaves(thinner crowns) and be less upright in part shade.  I have 3 planted at the same time and I just cut out the last overhead oak canopy on the last tone in shade.  The one in sun the whole time is much bigger and more impressive, but the second one which was liberated of shade 2 years ago is responding very nicely.   Alfredii don't need canopy here in west central florida, and they grow better without it.  Chambeyronia will grow fine in your yard, under canopy, and they have a gorgeous red color when the new leaves open.  Kentiopsis O are more hardy than royals or foxtails when young and probably when older, but they need to have more time to grow out of the juvenile slow growth window, and to recover from cold burn.  Royals are faster, my 35'ers burned pretty bady(75%?) last winter but they seem to have adjusted and are putting out leaves even faster than before.  My archontophoenix alexandre and myolensis have recovered the fastest, yep notably faster than the royals.  The maxima is recovering well but sees less direct sun so its hard to compare. 

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ruskinPalms

thanks for the suggestions. I do want to try B. alfredii and may go ahead and give K. oliviformis a try too. D. pembana sounds interesting too. Of note, I have no canopy and wouldn’t be able to grow any anytime soon. The only thing good about my back yard is that it is southern exposure with my two story house to the north and the neighbors houses blocking northwest and northeast winds. There is a natural Florida forest behind my back yard with nothing blocking east or west winds. No bodies of water near me except a ditch behind my house that does hold a couple feet of water even during the dry season. Interestingly when I did live in Ruskin my back yard was on a pretty good sized retention pond and I don’t think it helped much in cold winter nights. If anything it might have cause more damage by putting out lots of steam that turned into frost on the palm leaves. I had way way more frosted palms at my house in Ruskin than I’ve had at this house over the three winters I’ve been here. In fact, I haven’t seen any frost form on the palms at this house yet. Only seen frost on the windshield and on some rooftops and a few patches of grass. Saw no frost last winter at all oddly even though it was the coldest since I’ve been at this house so far. I know the big freeze was advective but there were other nights below 32 here last winter and plenty of still nights in the 30s that would seem like good nights for frost. 

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ruskinPalms

Are there any nurseries in manatee country or nearby that have K. oliviformis or B. alfredii? I’ve been to the nursey on Erie road that has only Florida natives and is actually a pretty cool place to get things like Roystonea regia, Pseudophoenix sargentii and the Florida native fan palms. 

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kinzyjr

Not sure about k. oliviformis, but got a b. alfredii off of @Mike Evans

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ruskinPalms

Thanks! I’ll check his website. 

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sonoranfans

Mike will have 3-15? gallon alfredii's kentiopsis O., and similarly sized chamberyonias dypsis leptcheilos and archontophoenix etc at his nursery in SW pinellas.  Ken Johnson can deliver larger specimen palms(Kentiopsis sized 12' overall or more) and he offers the best prices on the big ones.  Ken is also a great source for the cuban copernicias: hospita, baileyiana.  Those cuban copernicias take 20+/- years to grow a 10 footer so they are more expensive, but Ken has the best deals I know of on the specimen size ones.

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Dave-Vero

The palm collection at Orlando's Leu Gardens is a good place to start.  Their collection is deliberately adventurous.  They can grow lots of species cheaply from seed and the garden demonstrably has different local climates, mostly depending on proximity to the lake and canopy (of course they keep losing trees).  

I'm warmer than 9B.  The 2010/2011 cold weather caused a lot of leaf damage but the Archontophoenix species did roughly as well as royal palms and much better than coconuts.  The Cuban copernicias seem well worth trying, except they're such a big investment.  C. baileyana makes a charming youngster.  

My only Kentiopsis, a thriving non-trunking youngster, fell over in the last hurricane and croaked, but another that I'd foisted on a neighbor is thriving.  Still no trunk, but a beautiful six-foot baby.  

 

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ruskinPalms

I’m definitely liking the looks of Chambeyronia macrocarpa but I just don’t have any canopy and my yard is pretty much full sun. Palmpedia mentions these as being a 9A palm which seems a little unlikely to me but if true, even if slow growing, they would be real winners for this area. 

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redant

Chambeyronia macrocarpa not all that great. I lost a big one in 09/10. I always heard  Pseudophoenix sargentii was one of the hardest of all crownshafts.  I didn't lose any Sunshine Palm, Montgomery Palm in the 09/10 freeze or any carpies.

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ruskinPalms

Good to know that the Montgomery palm has some cold/freeze tolerance. I picked up some seeds at the base of a tall old one at my vet’s office in west Bradenton and have about 5 or so germinated. I kinda thought I was wasting my time nurturing these. I had some at my house in Ruskin and I do remember them growing extremely fast which is a good thing in my opinion but they did seem to take a lot of foliage damage in winter but grew out of it fast too. Sometimes I think fast growers, even if less frost/freeze tolerant overall, fare better in Florida 9B. Being able to resume growth fast and take advantage of warm periods in winter helps a lot. Adonidia are fast growers here too which makes them somewhat useful as small semiannul crownshafted palms but most don’t make it long term. 

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Ben in Norcal
1 hour ago, redant said:

Chambeyronia macrocarpa not all that great. I lost a big one in 09/10. I always heard  Pseudophoenix sargentii was one of the hardest of all crownshafts.  I didn't lose any Sunshine Palm, Montgomery Palm in the 09/10 freeze or any carpies.

Florida and California must be very different!  Chambeyronia waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay hardier than Pseudophoenix here.

As an aside, Kentiopsis at least as hardy as any Archo here, so worth a try.

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kurt decker

Here's a funny thing to notice. When they planted all the palms on either side of the Manatee River on I-75, the plantings were about the same on both sides. Now if you notice all the veitchias on the north side of the river are long dead and gone, and last I saw the ones on the south side are still thriving

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ruskinPalms

Yeah Kurt. That was an ambitious planting at the 75/275 junction. There are a lot of palms that I don’t even know what they are but most do look great! There are still several slender crownshafted very tropical looking palms on the north side of the river on both the Ellenton and palmetto sides of 75. What type of palms are those? They did at least as well as the foxtails and royals there. 

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ruskinPalms

That being said that is an overall warmer area than where I’m at unfortunately for me :winkie:

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ruskinPalms

Ben, there are definite differences in 9B in California and gulf coast 9B areas like in FL, LA and TX. You guys out west definitely seem to have better crownshafted palm options. Probably the very best options for gulf coast 9B so far are A. cunninghamiana and big R. regia, maybe big W. bifurcata. I started this thread hoping some new crownshafted palms had come to light as being truly hardy in gulf coast 9B areas. The New Caledonian palms seem promising but so far I’ve seen some conflicting reports about their utility in FL 9B maybe because it’s always pretty moist and somewhat cooler there. In my experience, palms from Australia, Madagascar and other areas that have wet/dry tropics and subtropics seem to have a fighting chance here. How tough is Dypsis carlsmithii? Is it worth a shot here? Or any success with other larger Dypsis species here in FL 9B? In years past when I was more active on this forum it seemed like large Dypsis tended to languish and rot here in FL but maybe people have had some succeses in recent years to share. 

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sonoranfans

As I recall chamberyonia are quite cold tolerant in florida, Ive read reports down to 25 degrees. but wind and too much sun are not going to make a strong and happy palm.  Having some wind protection like a hedge or bamboo something will limit convective heat losses in a winter cold and improve survivability.  Ultimately when a cold wind blows, heat is carried away faster than a still cold.  And being at say 28F for 5 hours is potentially far worse than hitting 26 and warming up quickly.  Its the temperature of the bud, not the air that will determine when death/damage occurs.  So a longer cold(generally advective is longer) is a bigger problem.  Big established royals in my area did pretty well in 2010, about half burn at 28 x 2 nights radiational plus frost.  But Royal damage was worse this past winter with that advective event where it was a degree or two warmer but persisted below freezing longer.  Also, in a radiational event the temperature warms with height above the ground, so all these palms will have better survivability in radiational events as they mature.  

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ruskinPalms

As side not good old Dypsis lutescens does pretty good here in sheltered areas but not particularly well as open yard specimen palms. I’m using them in close to the house to provide privavcy from neighbors to good effect. But being close to the house adds about 1/2 a zone taking that area to 10A. 

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Stelios

Rhopalostylis sapida should be cold  hardy but I'm not sure about growing in full sun there.

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Ben in Norcal
29 minutes ago, Stelios said:

Rhopalostylis sapida should be cold  hardy but I'm not sure about growing in full sun there.

I'm not sure Rhopies do well in the humidity there.

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RedRabbit
8 hours ago, kurt decker said:

Here's a funny thing to notice. When they planted all the palms on either side of the Manatee River on I-75, the plantings were about the same on both sides. Now if you notice all the veitchias on the north side of the river are long dead and gone, and last I saw the ones on the south side are still thriving

The veitchia were removed prior to last year's freeze. I don't know why they were removed, but it wasn't due to them dying in the cold. 

5 hours ago, ruskinPalms said:

Yeah Kurt. That was an ambitious planting at the 75/275 junction. There are a lot of palms that I don’t even know what they are but most do look great! There are still several slender crownshafted very tropical looking palms on the north side of the river on both the Ellenton and palmetto sides of 75. What type of palms are those? They did at least as well as the foxtails and royals there. 

I've always really liked those palms at Ellenton. They're like a welcome sign to South Florida. :D 

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RedRabbit

Regarding cold hardy crownshaft palms, I recommend just going to see Mike Evans over in St. Pete. He's got a lot of palms listed in his inventory that should do okay.

My Dypsis leptocheilos was by far my best crownshafted palm. They'll get damaged in the cold, but they're good about bouncing back. I know of a few that survived 2010 in 9b sections of Tampa. 

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DoomsDave
1 hour ago, RedRabbit said:

Regarding cold hardy crownshaft palms, I recommend just going to see Mike Evans over in St. Pete. He's got a lot of palms listed in his inventory that should do okay.

My Dypsis leptocheilos was by far my best crownshafted palm. They'll get damaged in the cold, but they're good about bouncing back. I know of a few that survived 2010 in 9b sections of Tampa. 

Pictures of yours?

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RedRabbit
33 minutes ago, DoomsDave said:

Pictures of yours?

Sold the house. 

Sooner or later I'll have to get one (or 5 B)) for my investment property further south.

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ruskinPalms

Wow! I had no idea Dypsis leptocheilos has a chance in 9B. Will definitely think about them. I do think I will pay a visit to Mike Evans. I checked out his website and he has most if not all of these palms discussed in this thread for what looks like reasonable prices to me. 

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ruskinPalms

And next time I’m stuck at the light to turn east on 301 at the Ellenton exit I’ll have to take a pic. Lots of really cool palms planted there that I really don’t know what they are. 

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ruskinPalms
5 hours ago, Ben in Norcal said:

 

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ruskinPalms

Sorry for the quote snafu..

I too have heard that that Rhopalosylis is a no go in Florida. I’ve heard they rot from the long hot summers and humidity. 

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RedRabbit
2 hours ago, ruskinPalms said:

And next time I’m stuck at the light to turn east on 301 at the Ellenton exit I’ll have to take a pic. Lots of really cool palms planted there that I really don’t know what they are. 

Here ya go: https://www.google.com/maps/@27.529019,-82.5103706,3a,75y,336.07h,92.21t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sSdNqDXnrcpbRCos-vkL2gg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Looks like there are still veitchia on the north side of the river. :D

Edit: I've been wondering what these are. I want to say bizzie, but they look so small in stature.:   https://www.google.com/maps/@27.5293987,-82.5100294,3a,30y,264.02h,82.06t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1soGBiH1Cf4r60EsvcwKC7WQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

 

Edited by RedRabbit

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kurt decker

Those veitchias on the north side are newer. Notice lots of them are still staked up. I saw the originals dead. The ones on the south side have always thrived. Not really surprising with the warmth and humidity from the Manatee River. I'm glad they replanted though. That is an amazing palm planting. Those are not bismarckia, those are blue latans! Talk about zone pushing. Everything else seems to be thriving. It really does say welcome to Florida. I'll be over there during the holidays and get the check it out again

Edited by kurt decker
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DoomsDave
4 hours ago, RedRabbit said:

Sold the house. 

Sooner or later I'll have to get one (or 5 B)) for my investment property further south.

Buy a place out here and I'll sell you 20 Teddies!

There's a house right down the street for sale, though it's way overpriced. There's another house dead across from me, too. Could stand upgrades. . . . .

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