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cfkingfish

Palms We Thought Were Cold Sensitive.....

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cfkingfish

I was recently reading the old thread about palms that were the most cold sensitive, and figured I would start a thread about palms that were previously thought to be sensitive, but are cold hardier than expected. Here is a small list to start:

Itaya amicorum - Doesn't like the wind but can handle upper 20s without frost. 

Pelagodoxa henryana - I remember seeing pictures of a mature one in West Palm from Paul Craft, I think the Fijian form is much more cold hardy.

Mauritia/Mauritiella - These would appear to be tropical due to their growing location, but both sailed through fine @32F here in the Cape. 

Anyone like to add?

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GottmitAlex

Hyophorbe lagenicaulis. 

I don't have knowledge on this one: What's your take on Euterpe oleracea (var. Para dwarf)?  

 

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palmsOrl

Cyrtostachys "hybrid", survived low 30s undamaged and a full winter outside in Orlando.  In this palm's case, I add it to the list, simply because it was assumed to be super cold sensitive, being a Cyrtostachys.

Cocos nucifera is much hardier than many think.  It is certainly not a contender for the world's most cold sensitive.  

The report from the other thread certainly suggests that Hydriastele costata is more cold hardy than widely believed to be.  It certainly looks uber tropical.

Same with Nupa fruticans, if it has been grown successfully at Montgomery.

 

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sarasota alex
36 minutes ago, cfkingfish said:

I was recently reading the old thread about palms that were the most cold sensitive, and figured I would start a thread about palms that were previously thought to be sensitive, but are cold hardier than expected. Here is a small list to start:

Itaya amicorum - Doesn't like the wind but can handle upper 20s without frost. 

Pelagodoxa henryana - I remember seeing pictures of a mature one in West Palm from Paul Craft, I think the Fijian form is much more cold hardy.

Mauritia/Mauritiella - These would appear to be tropical due to their growing location, but both sailed through fine @32F here in the Cape. 

Anyone like to add?

Definitely my experience as well with Pelagodoxa (survived a 2-hour freeze in Jan with 50% leaf damage) and especially Mauritiella armata, which is trunking in my front yard and another in my old yard, that albeit not trunking (not enough sun likely), but has been in the ground undamaged since 2012.

I would add Metroxylon vitiense that I've been growing for more than 3 years, and although I covered it during the only freeze, it has taken low and mid thirties without every winter without damage or setback. Also my Hydriastele beguinii I can say the same things I did about Metroxylon, only it hasn't been in the ground for as long. Although a Pigafetta elata I had in the ground for almost a year, took it down to mid thirties with no damage during its only winter in the ground. Unfortunately it did not survive our dry spring air in mostly full sun, no matter how much I watered it.

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palmsOrl

I was thinking that with Pigafetta, it may be other factors, such as seasonal dryness and/or soil conditions, that keep it from surviving in South Florida.  Though it clearly is an ultratropical palm or darn close.

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DavidLee

What about carpentaria acuminata? I seen some that made it thru a hard freeze in 2010 with little damage. Temperatures around 25-27. Around 10 hours below freezing. I imagine anything lower or longer freeze duration will defoliate them. Not in Boca. North side of Lake O. 

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palmsOrl

Yeah I remember seeing Capentaria noted as being "quite cold sensitive" but in my experience it is around the same as Cocos and Veitchia arecina.

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greysrigging
1 minute ago, palmsOrl said:

Yeah I remember seeing Capentaria noted as being "quite cold sensitive" but in my experience it is around the same as Cocos and Veitchia arecina.

Carpentarias in the Darwin region ( native for us ) never see under 50f and very rarely below 80f daytime temps. Having said that, palms growing further inland 60=80 miles south of the coast would experience 40-45f most winters, but not often and not for too long.... and always followed by warm sunny dry days above 75-80f. Like the coconut, its the cold and damp wet feet that knocks them around out of habitat. I'm amazed that they would survive a freeze of 25-27f. I doubt there is anywhere in Australia growing Carpies in those freezing night time temps.... but I will stand corrected. Perhaps Mt Isa in North West Queensland, a notoriously hot mining town that has dipped below freezing on occasion. I have seen Cuban Royals growing there.

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PalmatierMeg
4 hours ago, GottmitAlex said:

Hyophorbe lagenicaulis. 

I don't have knowledge on this one: What's your take on Euterpe oleracea (var. Para dwarf)?  

 

Our bottle palms took down to 34F last winter. Our oldest survived 28.5F during the 1/11/10 cold outbreak. Their leaves will show damage below 40F but if they aren't tiny seedlings, they survive.

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PalmatierMeg
2 hours ago, palmsOrl said:

Yeah I remember seeing Capentaria noted as being "quite cold sensitive" but in my experience it is around the same as Cocos and Veitchia arecina.

Agree.

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PalmatierMeg

The name Cyrtostachys keeps coming up. I grew potted red and green lipsticks until they grew too tall for our birdcage. They are indeed quite cold sensitive but their needs are manageable as long as you are willing to put in the effort to meet them. For example,

1. In Cape Coral never plant them - potted only.

2. Keep their pots in trays of water. Don't let them dry out - ever.

3. Grow them under shadecloth (at least 75%) to keep their leaves lush and green.

4. Spray them with mancozeb (Dithene-45) for cold weather fungus when dry season starts.

5. In early winter bring them indoors when nights fall below 50F and keep them indoors until days are above 60F. In late winter I could let the low slide to 45F. Never lower

I grew them in large pots set on dollies until they reached 9' tall. By then, they were so heavy that rolling them into and out of the house 5-10 times per winter became too difficult. So we sold them to a guy from Clearwater (north of Tampa). Poor wretched things are probably long dead now.

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cfkingfish
9 hours ago, GottmitAlex said:

Hyophorbe lagenicaulis. 

I don't have knowledge on this one: What's your take on Euterpe oleracea (var. Para dwarf)?  

 

I have never grown the Para dwarf variety, but my regular E. oleracea died in 2011 after a second chilly year when I forgot to protect it. One night around 30F fried it. 

My experience is that dwarf palms from tropical regions tend to be very cold sensitive. The big ones tend to do better. 

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DavidLee

There is a small number of Cocos and Veitchia in the area and they were all fried in 2010 but survived and look good now. Those carpentaria mentioned are only the ones in the Okeechobee area. I observed them from the road so I have no idea what the temperature was at that house during that freeze. They were a few blocks from the lake and 20 feet from a canal. They were also mature palms too. That might of helped too. All cold sensitive palms in that area were pretty fried except those. It is worth checking out if you are in borderline 9b to 10a. 

 

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Missi
13 hours ago, cfkingfish said:

Itaya amicorum - Doesn't like the wind but can handle upper 20s without frost. 

Pelagodoxa henryana - I remember seeing pictures of a mature one in West Palm from Paul Craft, I think the Fijian form is much more cold hardy.

Mauritia/Mauritiella - These would appear to be tropical due to their growing location, but both sailed through fine @32F here in the Cape. 

Great to know about these 3! Thanks!!

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Laaz

Lytocaryum hoehnei, took 16F last winter with just a tarp thrown over it. Had spear pull but came back strong. Still holding old leaved that did not burn.

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GottmitAlex
15 hours ago, cfkingfish said:

I have never grown the Para dwarf variety, but my regular E. oleracea died in 2011 after a second chilly year when I forgot to protect it. One night around 30F fried it. 

My experience is that dwarf palms from tropical regions tend to be very cold sensitive. The big ones tend to do better. 

Thank you Chris.

One last one:

Adonidii merillii. I believe the latest nomenclature for this palm is Veitchia merrillii.  

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kinzyjr

At one time, Bismarckia was thought to be a 10a or above palm. 

Now there are reports of specimens surviving low 20s (9a)...

... or even less than 20F (8b)

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sarasota alex
35 minutes ago, GottmitAlex said:

Thank you Chris.

One last one:

Adonidii merillii. I believe the latest nomenclature for this palm is Veitchia merrillii.  

Adonidia merrillii is correct. My observation - cold and cool sensitivity all-around is equal to Cocos nucifera

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Eric in Orlando

 

A few I have grown;

Areca triandra

Arenga australasica

Astrocaryum mexicanum

Attalea rostrata

Bactris gasipaes

Chelyocarpus chuco

Coccothrinax barbadensis

Cryosophila warscewiczii

Cyrtostachys hybrid

Desmoncus orthacanthos

Dypsis pembana

Euterpe edulis

Geonoma schottiana

Hydriastele wendlandiana

Kerriodoxa elegans

Lemurophoenix halleuxii

Licuala ramsayi

Livistona endauensis

Marojejya darianii

Masoala madagascariensis

Mauritia flexuosa

Mauritiella armata

Normanbya normanbyii

Phoenix paludosa

Pholidocarpus kingianus

Pinanga philippinensis

Plectocomia elongata

Pritchardia hillebrandii

Ptychococcus lepidotus

Reinhardtia latisecta

Roystonea oleracea

Sabal mauritiiformis

Salacca wallichiana

Saribus woodfordianus 

Schippia concolor

Syagrus amara

Synechanthus fibrosus

Thrinax excelsa

Veitchia arecina

Zombia antillarum

 

 

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GottmitAlex
10 minutes ago, sarasota alex said:

Adonidia merrillii is correct. My observation - cold and cool sensitivity all-around is equal to Cocos nucifera

Thank you Alex. So the implication is if one can grow a c. Nucifera (outdoors), one can also grow an A. Merrillii.  

 

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BS Man about Palms

This is a good thread, but I think there is a difference between a "drop" in temp and repeated cool temps. I suspect there are plenty of palms that would survive to low 30s or lower if treated to mostly 80-85 temps right after. (Florida) versus many nights of low 40's followed by "maybe" 75-80 temps after.. (So Cal) While this is a useful thread, People that are new to this should realize that the 2 different regions put different strains on their palms.

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joe_OC
10 minutes ago, BS Man about Palms said:

This is a good thread, but I think there is a difference between a "drop" in temp and repeated cool temps. I suspect there are plenty of palms that would survive to low 30s or lower if treated to mostly 80-85 temps right after. (Florida) versus many nights of low 40's followed by "maybe" 75-80 temps after.. (So Cal) While this is a useful thread, People that are new to this should realize that the 2 different regions put different strains on their palms.

Great point, Bill!

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palmfriend
11 minutes ago, GottmitAlex said:

Thank you Alex. So the implication is if one can grow a c. Nucifera (outdoors), one can also grow an A. Merrillii.  

 

I agree. We have Cocos n., usually planted on purpose and doing well more or less, and Adonidia M. which grows naturally everywhere.

best regards from Okinawa

Lars

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palmsOrl
1 hour ago, kinzyjr said:

At one time, Bismarckia was thought to be a 10a or above palm. 

Now there are reports of specimens surviving low 20s (9a)...

... or even less than 20F (8b)

Strangely, I had one that completely fried in the low 30s (30-31F) every time guaranteed.  My mistake was getting it when the species first became available in tharder. It always came back quickly though.  The one available now are much hardier.

Areca triandra is a winner in terms of cold hardiness (for an Areca species).  It took mid 20s to kill my in ground palm in Orlando.

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Xenon

There was a flowering (!) Carpentaria growing in Galveston in the 2000s, palm never saw <30F (zone 10 winters 1997-2009) but it did snow there in 2004. Probably wiped out in 2011 (25F) if not 2010 (27F). Amazing considering it was only 50 miles from Houston. Carpentaria in Galveston

Adonidia seems to be more cold hardy than coconuts? The ones I saw in S. Texas looked much better than the coconuts after a freeze. 

Bismarckia has been REALLY impressive so far in Houston. There are a few that survived (and in many cases, fared better) temperatures (~20F) that killed/defoliated mature queens and pygmy dates. There is one near me that survived 17F (2010), 18F (2011), and 18F this past winter. It's still pushing abnormally small fronds but its alive nonetheless. Really hoping we have a mild winter. 

 

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GottmitAlex
21 minutes ago, Xenon said:

There was a flowering (!) Carpentaria growing in Galveston in the 2000s, palm never saw <30F (zone 10 winters 1997-2009) but it did snow there in 2004. Probably wiped out in 2011 (25F) if not 2010 (27F). Amazing considering it was only 50 miles from Houston. Carpentaria in Galveston

Adonidia seems to be more cold hardy than coconuts? The ones I saw in S. Texas looked much better than the coconuts after a freeze. 

Bismarckia has been REALLY impressive so far in Houston. There are a few that survived (and in many cases, fared better) temperatures (~20F) that killed/defoliated mature queens and pygmy dates. There is one near me that survived 17F (2010), 18F (2011), and 18F this past winter. It's still pushing abnormally small fronds but its alive nonetheless. Really hoping we have a mild winter. 

 

Great input Jonathan. I think the Adonidii are a tad bit hardier than coconuts. I say this because my triple just slid through this past winter without any supplemental heat. Oh yeah, they are in a pot.... 

What is your experience with Hyophorbe lagenicaulis? 

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Matt in OC

I’d bet that coconuts are hardier than adonidia, at least in SoCal. 

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Xenon
2 hours ago, GottmitAlex said:

Great input Jonathan. I think the Adonidii are a tad bit hardier than coconuts. I say this because my triple just slid through this past winter without any supplemental heat. Oh yeah, they are in a pot.... 

What is your experience with Hyophorbe lagenicaulis? 

You can compare the Adonidia and coconuts in this thread: Coconuts, Adonidia, Hyophorbe in Texas

The Adonidia are flowering and have a full crown while the coconuts have only regenerated 1/3 to 1/2 of the crown. This is ~1.5 years after a major freeze in February 2011 (afternoon high below freezing and ultimate low ~28F). The coconuts were 100% defoliated. You can see how the Adonidia in April 2011 here: Adonidia streetview. They don't look much worse than the royals and foxtails on the same property. Note the damage to Ficus (F. benjamina across the street frozen back to main trunk/base) and nearby Delonix regia. Hyophorbe seem to be about as tender as coconuts. You can follow the progress (2007 to 2017) of what was once a double here: Hyophorbe streetview

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Palm Tree Jim
9 hours ago, BS Man about Palms said:

This is a good thread, but I think there is a difference between a "drop" in temp and repeated cool temps. I suspect there are plenty of palms that would survive to low 30s or lower if treated to mostly 80-85 temps right after. (Florida) versus many nights of low 40's followed by "maybe" 75-80 temps after.. (So Cal) While this is a useful thread, People that are new to this should realize that the 2 different regions put different strains on their palms.

Very true Bill.

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bar

I've tried Bismarkia twice in Sacramento.  Died both times.  I think that it's also one of those that tolerate short cold better than long cool/wet periods.  But lots of other good surprises here!  

Rhopalostylis sapida actually survived winter pretty well in a protected spot under leaf cover.  Didn't like the summer afternoon sun though.

Bruce

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bubba

Licuala grandis

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Palmə häl′ik

:interesting:

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Ben in Norcal
3 hours ago, bar said:

I've tried Bismarkia twice in Sacramento.  Died both times.  I think that it's also one of those that tolerate short cold better than long cool/wet periods.  But lots of other good surprises here!  

Rhopalostylis sapida actually survived winter pretty well in a protected spot under leaf cover.  Didn't like the summer afternoon sun though.

Bruce

Bismarkia do great here, so long cool/wet periods aren't the problem.  I suspect it's your cold.

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PalmatierMeg
15 hours ago, BS Man about Palms said:

This is a good thread, but I think there is a difference between a "drop" in temp and repeated cool temps. I suspect there are plenty of palms that would survive to low 30s or lower if treated to mostly 80-85 temps right after. (Florida) versus many nights of low 40's followed by "maybe" 75-80 temps after.. (So Cal) While this is a useful thread, People that are new to this should realize that the 2 different regions put different strains on their palms.

You are spot on. What saves tropicals here in SFL is once the sun rises temps rebound quickly. Also, cold weather here is accompanied by lack of rain - usually. In the bizarre, record winter of 2009/10, that trend turned inside out. One Jan. day we got ice cold rain and falling temps into the mid-30s followed by a night down to 28.5F. The rest of the winter seemed to be endless days of clouds, highs that seldom topped 60F and lows in the 30s & 40s. I lost 30+ species of palms during the first 8-9 months of 2010. That relentless, cloudy, chilly weather did more damage than a dozen under 40F nights followed by moderating warmth. I hope I never see another winter like that one.

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Josue Diaz

:interesting: <-- Me waiting for Sabinaria magnifica to make it on this list for CA. 

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Palmə häl′ik

I quit watering this time o year until spring...   ZonePushin tip.

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RedRabbit

My ptychosperma macarthurii surprised me last winter with no damage from ~27f. That palm is underrated for cold tolerance, there's a d lutescens in the same yard that was knocked back to the ground by comparison.

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Merlyn2220
On 10/30/2018 at 11:17 PM, BS Man about Palms said:

This is a good thread, but I think there is a difference between a "drop" in temp and repeated cool temps. I suspect there are plenty of palms that would survive to low 30s or lower if treated to mostly 80-85 temps right after. (Florida) versus many nights of low 40's followed by "maybe" 75-80 temps after.. (So Cal) While this is a useful thread, People that are new to this should realize that the 2 different regions put different strains on their palms.

This thread has given me some great ideas, but I'm curious about the above statement.  I think this mostly applies to South FL and not so much for Central FL.  Our average temps in January (typically the worst cold fronts) are highs of 70 and lows of 49.  It doesn't rain too often, but this month we've already had 3.35" at my house.   Our most recent cold front had 3 days of low 60s/mid 40s, 4 days of mid 70s/50, then the cold night 4 hours of 34-35F and a high of 59 that day.  Following days were roughly 73-75 and lows in the low 50s.  It's pretty unusual to see 80s here, usually a random day here or there.  The week of 80-83 (lows in upper 60s) at the end of the year are an anomaly.  It's not unusual to see several weeks of 70F highs and 40-45F lows.  Is that more or less similar to the CA temps you'd see?

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Hillizard
On 10/31/2018 at 6:54 AM, bar said:

I've tried Bismarkia twice in Sacramento.  Died both times.  I think that it's also one of those that tolerate short cold better than long cool/wet periods.  But lots of other good surprises here!  

Rhopalostylis sapida actually survived winter pretty well in a protected spot under leaf cover.  Didn't like the summer afternoon sun though.

Bruce

Bruce: Perhaps you could try again and plant it in an elevated location? I grow my Bismarckia at the top of a berm that's about 3.5-4 feet above the average soil level of my garden. That seems to help it tolerate cool, wet conditions in the winter, at least so far (about 3 years in the ground). The weather has been mild here for January, so that helps too. Mine is actively growing right now. Fingers crossed for February... :unsure:

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BS Man about Palms
4 hours ago, Merlyn2220 said:

This thread has given me some great ideas, but I'm curious about the above statement.  I think this mostly applies to South FL and not so much for Central FL.  Our average temps in January (typically the worst cold fronts) are highs of 70 and lows of 49.  It doesn't rain too often, but this month we've already had 3.35" at my house.   Our most recent cold front had 3 days of low 60s/mid 40s, 4 days of mid 70s/50, then the cold night 4 hours of 34-35F and a high of 59 that day.  Following days were roughly 73-75 and lows in the low 50s.  It's pretty unusual to see 80s here, usually a random day here or there.  The week of 80-83 (lows in upper 60s) at the end of the year are an anomaly.  It's not unusual to see several weeks of 70F highs and 40-45F lows.  Is that more or less similar to the CA temps you'd see?

As a general rule, Winter in So Cal means regular forays into the mid 40's if not low 40's overnight and then high 60's  and low 70's for daytime. We also get 95% of our annual rainfall from november through March...maybe April. If that matches you, lets you know what will make your winters... on the other hand your overnight summer temps I suspect are MUCH higher than here!

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