Palms in northern mediterranean - 1450 ft a.s.l.

[LivistonaFan 146]

Hello,

I planted the following palms in an olive grove:

• Butia eriospatha
• Chamaerops humilis var. 'cerifera'
• Jubaea Chilensis
• Livistona Chinensis 
• Phoenix Canariensis
• Rhapis excelsa

more will be planted in the next years, but primarily I have to check the cold hardiness zone (I will install a weather station soon to check the winter lows). I hope the lows in the coldest winters will at least be >18 fahrenheit 

Edited September 8, 2018 by LivistonaFan

[LivistonaFan 146]

 

sorry, but I don't have better pictures for the Butia.

The Livistona had to lose its highest frond, because otherwise it would have been very difficult to transport it.

The soil is almost pure loam and very profound. At first I thought that it was impossible to dig deep holes, because the soil was bone-dry but with a little water it was almost easy. Later on I will add some bark mulch.

 

Which do you think is the most likely to survive longterm and  which the least?

Edited September 8, 2018 by LivistonaFan

[dalmatiansoap 387]

Depends on exact location. In my area Raphis and Livistona would be the most in danger. I lost few "bullet proof" palms for my zone due to wind after cold spell and on the other side I have few survivalists that will never gave them a chance.

[TexasColdHardyPalms 3,174]

Rhapis is the most fragile of the group. Livistona will burn but is EXTREMELY bud hardy. They'll take single digits and come back. 

[Neil C 518]

Well your soil looks good so thats a start. How wet are your winters? Your Chamaerops should be the hardiest if your winters are not too wet. I'm afraid I don't fancy your Raphis chances but I hope I'm wrong. Cudos to you for having a go.

Regards Neil

[Pal Meir 5,243]

Your Chamaerops argentea doesn’t look good; why don’t you plant a normal Chamaerops which doesn't mind even wet winters? — The soil seems to be alkaline limestone (carbonate) if I am right. That can cause other problems with Butia and Jubaea. Did you measure the pH?

[LivistonaFan 146]

@Neil C Of course, winters are wetter than summers, which is the definition of this type of climate. But it rains considerably less in winter than for example the croatian coast down to the greek city Patras ( I quickly checked some climate charts). Furthermore the most precipation is in October and November which shouldn't hurt the palms to much. I hope the wall which is SW/W-facing helps the Rhapis in cold winter days.

@Pal Meir I just like blue or silver palms very much and it would be a nice contrast to the others. If it dies I can replace it with a normal Chamaerops anyway as they are not that expensive. I think it was greenhouse grown because the leaves burned within two days after I received it. My cheap ph soil meter claimed that the ph is just above seven (very slightly), but I don't know if I can trust it.

[LivistonaFan 146]

a soil map marks it as borderline between brown soils and lithosols/ alluvial soils

[Cikas 433]

Chamaerops cerifera does not mind at all our humid winters here in Dubrovnik (Croatia). We have 1064 mm of rain per year. Most of that in late fall, winter and early spring. Our summers are hot and dry. 

Edited September 8, 2018 by Cikas

[Cikas 433]

Here is mine Chamaerops cerifera.

 

[LivistonaFan 146]

@Cikas Very nice! How old is it? ( How long have I to wait to see my cerifera as big as yours?)

Edited September 11, 2018 by LivistonaFan

[Cikas 433]

56 minutes ago, LivistonaFan said:

@Cikas Very nice! How old is it? ( How long have I to wait to see my cerifera as big as yours?)

It is planted 4+ years ago (I think). 

[LivistonaFan 146]

Small Update:

after more than three weeks without much rain, it rained a lot in the last week:

• Rhapis got accidentally removed by a neighbor (maybe I will try another one next year)
• Phoenix fried a lot of its oldest (greenhouse-grown) fronds, but the new spear seems O.K.
• Butia seems ok (two spears browned off) and actively growing
• the two yellow fronds of the Livistona Chinensis turned brown 
• the Chamaerops Cerifera defoliated completely, but its center spear seems alright
• I planted a Chamaerops humilis 'vulcano ( I know that isn't very clever that late in the year)

[LivistonaFan 146]

 

 

 

 

Edited November 8, 2018 by LivistonaFan

[LivistonaFan 146]

I just acquired three new palms which might be quite marginal for the location. After I know how low the temperature went this winter I will decide whether they stay in pots or go in the ground.

They aren`t rare palms but nonetheless quite exciting for me:

 

• Rhapis humilis (as a substitution for the R. excelsa + supposed to be more cold hardy ; quite difficult to find in Germany)

• Arenga Engleri (it is possible that I already have one, but it is uncertain)
• Acoelorrhape wrightii:
• 
• all together under artificial lights (Sabal uresana in the front left is finally recovering(after 6 months))
• 

[LivistonaFan 146]

Almost exactly one year later after the first post, most palms do not thrive (yet), but except for the Chamaerops humilis Cerifera all survived this year. They were just sporadically irrigated during their first summer, insufficient in a Mediterranean climate, but it was the only possible way.

First, some stats (data from December 1st to August 20th) to understand the new habitat of the palms :

[The "weather station" is north-facing (+never sees the sun) + it is relatively exposed to wind etc and not in proximity to any shelter/heated building--> I think it should be pretty accurate]

Winter was not too bad considering the location's latitude and altitude, but nonetheless cool/cold. 

• 22 days below 50°F/10°C high temperature (4 in Dec/16 in Jan/2 in Feb)
• lowest high temperature: 45.5°F/7.5°C (measured in Jan.)
• 16 nights below 35°F/1.7°C (3 in Dec/13 in Jan/0 in Feb)
• ultimate low: 30.2°F/-1°C (measured in Jan.)

--- > January is far colder than December and February. There is an extreme uniformity temperature-wise (so many nights fell below 35°F but none below 30°F)

summer was/is relatively cool for a Mediterranean climate with considerably lower night temperatures than the immediate coast:

• 24 nights above 68°F
• highest low temperature: 76°F/24.4°C
• 29 days high temperatures above 90°F/32.2°C (I was too lazy to count all above 86°F which were much more)
• ultimate high: 101.6°F/38.7°C

Jubaea Chilensis is clearly the winner in terms of drought tolerance (it got 11 leaves cut, half of them were still green)

Phoenix Canariensis comes second (lost a few leaves, but has restarted its growth)

I removed it however and it will stay in a pot in Germany because of the hazard of the RPW (I know Jubaea is endangered as well, but I just want to see it getting big one day. I will replace the Phoenix Canariensis with a Parajubaea Microcarpa next spring.

Third place is a tie between Livistona Chinensis and Butia Eriospatha

 

The Livistona lost all its leaves at some point in mid-summer (I guess it was due to its high evaporation of the palmate leaves and the comparatively small roots). But it has started to regrow strongly since then.

The Butia has not lost all of its leaves, but the spear dried up (I guess because of the drought). A new healthier spear is coming though.

Last Places are the two Chamaerops (which should have been the most adapted palms climate-wise)

The Chamaerops humilis 'Vulcano got mowed over (but still alive)

And the Cerifera passed away. As I promised, I will replace it with a standard green Chamaerops.

New palms:

I planted four of my Washingtonia filiferas (most likely not true filiferas):

I planted three of them with exactly 1.15 Meters space between them (I know it is tight, but I guess it should work)

The fourth Washingtonia filifera is planted solitary, later on I will plant on each side one of my two Washingtonia robustas (of course with some distance)

In the future, I will try to plant more exciting palms, but none of them have the right size yet.

I could also imagine a Dypsis Decipiens in a more protected spot, but I am not able to find one to buy

[pete21 31]

these dry stone walls with the palms are supèrb!

[UK_Palms 678]

This is a very interesting thread. I will be sure to follow this closely from here on. I'm guessing this in Croatia? And if so, how far inland are you from the coastline?

I am particularly interested to see how your Washingtonia Filifera/Filibusta will do in that location. They take off like rockets where I am and withstand the worst that our winters can chuck at them. So they should do well for you. They'll definitely be the fastest growers there for sure. I'm surprised the Chamaerops Cerifera kicked the bucket for you though. Chamaerops in general grow extremely well here for me and don't take winter damage.

Have you thought about trying stuff like Syagrus Romanzoffiana or Chambeyronia Macrocarpa? They should do well for you, considering I can grow them here in sheltered, south facing positions. Both are definitely hardier than people realise.

[pete21 31]

LivistonaFan, how your Jubaea chilensis s doing now? 

I want plant some of these.

I have -6 in winter and very hot summer.

Edited January 15, 2020 by pete21

[LivistonaFan 146]

 

 

 

 

2

On 1/12/2020 at 7:58 AM, UK_Palms said:

This is a very interesting thread. I will be sure to follow this closely from here on. I'm guessing this in Croatia? And if so, how far inland are you from the coastline?

I am particularly interested to see how your Washingtonia Filifera/Filibusta will do in that location. They take off like rockets where I am and withstand the worst that our winters can chuck at them. So they should do well for you. They'll definitely be the fastest growers there for sure. I'm surprised the Chamaerops Cerifera kicked the bucket for you though. Chamaerops in general grow extremely well here for me and don't take winter damage.

Have you thought about trying stuff like Syagrus Romanzoffiana or Chambeyronia Macrocarpa? They should do well for you, considering I can grow them here in sheltered, south facing positions. Both are definitely hardier than people realise.

Hello,

I am glad you like this thread. No, it is not in Croatia. But in Italy. Sea distance is after a short look on Google Maps a little more than 4 Miles / about 7 km linear distance.  But keep in mind that the terrain is 440 Meters above sea level, so it is colder than the immediate coast.

I am as well very interested in the future of the Washingtonias as they should be my fastest palms and almost bullet-proof once established (maybe a winter like 1985 could take them in, but I am not quite sure. There were most probably pre-1985 CIDPs in similar locations nearby, but now killed by the RPW). I don't think that the Chamaerops Cerifera died because of the winter, at least that was not the sole reason. As I wrote the lowest temperature was exactly -1°C and the winter itself is generally quite dry and sunny. Besides, Livistona Chinensis is much less leaf-hardy and looked quite good in spring.

Of course, I thought a lot about Syagrus romanzoffiana, but decided against it for now. They tend to exhibit quite thin stems + crowns if not irrigated and I am sure they will at least get badly damaged in one of these 30-year-record-cold-winters. Winter 2010 was cold and some queens nearby survived most likely undamaged (according to Google Maps), so there is a chance of long-time-survival. I have some self-sown Queens, so I might try them out, who knows. But firstly I will try to plant my Butia paraguayensis x S. romanzoffiana (presumably), which should give a similar look and more cold- and drought-hardiness. It would be great to have such a tropical-looking palm in the garden as Chambeyronia Macrocarpa and it can probably survive milder winters in the right location, but it would have even greater problems in summer drought and most-likely not even survive a year. Nonetheless thank you for sharing your experiences with this palm, I am very surprised it fares so well in warm-temperate conditions, so I will buy one soon.

8 hours ago, pete21 said:

LivistonaFan, how your Jubaea chilensis s doing now? 

I want plant some of these.

I have -6 in winter and very hot summer.

It should do well, in two months or so I will see it again. This winter it most likely has not seen anything below 0°C yet,  but even after -6 or -8 ° it should be undamaged (if the following day is above 0°C) 

As you say '-6 in winter', do you mean every winter? That seems quite cold for me considering the location you posted in one of the other threads.

Regardless, the climate in Jubaea's Chile is very very similar to yours. Once established, they should survive everything your climate confronts them with, be it cold, drought or extreme heat.

Therefore plant them (but not too close to your house), they are great palms. The more, the better.

[pete21 31]

Thanks LivigstonaFan, I found a beautiful one trunk of 30-40 cm for 75 e, I will get it and a Robelinii 40 cm height for 40e.

yes i got -6 every winter indeed but it warm up quickly to +6 to +12 durring the day. al year long cool nights, even in summer. its 250 m altitude.

now i understand he will be fine during winter but summer with heat? under the sun one day my termometer stopped working at 56 degrees celcius this summer, so i will plant it where there is shade but where its not too humid. Thanks! And i red he prefer ph acid and mine is 8,5.

there is a guy offering for free a Livinstona? kind of flat trunk of 3,1 meters of circonference, palm is maybe 8-10 meters tall. its free , you just need to pick it up.

I saw regurlarly people offering big palms for free, or they disturb electrical lines or the house etc....last year i have an opportunity with some washingtonian disturbing an electrical line but they were 8 to 10 meters tall, fine trunk and not much root mass, very dificult to keep standing up the first days with such a windy place like i have and i gave up, if the palm is big and with huge root mass its ok, but too tall, too fine trunk and no roots make it too dificult even with 4 huge stalks.

Edited January 16, 2020 by pete21

[LivistonaFan 146]

This thread should help to answer your post:

I can't really comment about the prices you posted, because outside of Southern Europe prices are generally higher. I paid for example 150 for my Jubaea (my most expensive palm), whereas the Livistona did cost 60. The price tag for your Roebelinii seems quite expensive, but I could be wrong. If it is well acclimatized and not greenhouse-grown, which at least in Northern Europe very few are, it might be worth its money.

As I mentioned, I don't think a Jubaea will have any problems in your climate, even in full sun.  It seems to be pretty hot at your location, but it can't possibly be as long as hot as the Coachella Valley, in which this 'palmtalker' (Danilopez89) lives.  Moreover, it would be pretty difficult to let this eventually big palm grow in shade to maturity (I can't remember bigger canopy trees in your photos...) 

Yes, to my knowledge at least, most of the South-American palms (including Jubaea, Butia,...) like acidic soils, but tolerate slightly alkaline ones as well. Ph 8,5 seems a little bit high to me though, so you could try to lower it a bit (to 7-7.5) before plantation (there are many articles on the internet about acidifying the soil).

I don't have any experience with moving and transplanting such big palms. One thing I am sure of: It is much more rewarding to transplant a slower, more uncommon palm like a Livistona than an extremely fast-growing and ubiquitous palm like the Washingtonia is.

By saying you 'gave up', do you mean you really have tried to transplant one last year and failed? If so, do you have any pictures of the process?

[LivistonaFan 146]

The last few weeks were extremely rainy. Now some of the leaf bases are detached, exposing some "trunk".  Is this normal and the trunk girth will further expand or is it rather unusual? I am worried this could be some disease, because I have only seen much bigger Jubaea showing their trunk.

[lzorrito 244]

On 6/19/2020 at 4:50 PM, LivistonaFan said:

The last few weeks were extremely rainy. Now some of the leaf bases are detached, exposing some "trunk".  Is this normal and the trunk girth will further expand or is it rather unusual? I am worried this could be some disease, because I have only seen much bigger Jubaea showing their trunk.

Don't see any problem. Just old leaf bases drying and detaching. It looks like it's starting to trunk.

Nice property! Those stone walls are quite a heat accumulator, providing night heat and winter shelter. Are they facing N, W, E, or S? You may take an advantage point out of it to create a microclimate. Well...you can do and grow lots of "things" there.

Speaking about blue palms why not try a Trithrinax campestris? A beautiful super hardy bulletproof palm. Just perfect for your property climate. And Nannorrhops...?

Can you make an update of the property palms?

Thanks!

 

[LivistonaFan 146]

26 minutes ago, lzorrito said:

Don't see any problem. Just old leaf bases drying and detaching. It looks like it's starting to trunk.

Nice property! Those stone walls are quite a heat accumulator, providing night heat and winter shelter. Are they facing N, W, E, or S? You may take an advantage point out of it to create a microclimate. Well...you can do and grow lots of "things" there.

Speaking about blue palms why not try a Trithrinax campestris? A beautiful super hardy bulletproof palm. Just perfect for your property climate. And Nannorrhops...?

Can you make an update of the property palms?

Thanks!

 

Thank you. I am quite curious myself about how they are looking now. I will update in September when I am there again + I will plant some new palms.

Many of the stone walls are strictly facing west, some south-west. The whole "hillside" is facing west

I thought the same about Trithrinax campestris and bought one a month or two ago. At first I had thought that they would be some boring kind of desert palms that can't survive wet winters. But after I read that it grows high up in the mountains and even grows reasonably well in Southern England while still being extremely drought and heat tolerant, I knew it would like the climate. The plant I acquired is extremely small and will most likely be smothered by weeds after the winter rains (it was very difficult to find the Ch. humilis vulcano again).

 

I was also tempted to grow Nannorrhops but after I have seen the giant exemplary of Dick in NorCal I am not sure anymore if I have enough space to plant it:

 

[lzorrito 244]

11 minutes ago, LivistonaFan said:

Many of the stone walls are strictly facing west, some south-west. The whole "hillside" is facing west

Southwest facing, you could use those walls for a more tender palms planting. Near the wall. Heat, wind protection and humidity from the fundations.

 

16 minutes ago, LivistonaFan said:

The plant I acquired is extremely small and will most likely be smothered by weeds after the winter rains

You may and should use stone mulch. Just use the local gravel to mulch around the palm. It prevents grass growing and keeps the soil moisture and temperature. We are using it a lot now around here. Cheap, effective and timeless.

 

26 minutes ago, LivistonaFan said:

 

I was also tempted to grow Nannorrhops but after I have seen the giant exemplary of Dick in NorCal I am not sure anymore if I have enough space to plant it

That palm is surely sitting on a more than optimal habitat (regular watering, plus fertilizer...and so on), thats why its overgrown. They are usually so, so slow, and that will for sure be the case in your property. It deserves a try .

 

36 minutes ago, LivistonaFan said:

I will update in September when I am there again + I will plant some new palms.

Looking forward for the update!

[LivistonaFan 146]

This winter was even milder than the previous one:

lowest temperature: 36.4°F/+2.4°C (winter 18/19: 30.2°F/-1°C)

coldest daily maximum: 47°F/8.3°C (winter 18/19: 45°F/7.5°C)

 

I tried to create a little comparison between my palms last year and this year:

(Disclaimer: this is not a well-manicured garden yet. For now the palms are growing most of the time on their own.)

On 9/9/2019 at 12:45 AM, LivistonaFan said:

Livistona chinensis:

July 2019 (first summer,  watered twice from June-end of August):

September 2019(after being watered abundantly for one week):

September 2020 (now without supplemental water during summer, but it has coped astonishingly well. A few new stone walls are getting build, that is why I can't take a picture of it in total. If you look closely it is starting to show some trunk):

 

Butia Eriospatha:

September 2019 (Damaged by drought (2x watered during summer)):

September 2020 (without any supplemental watering during this summer. I transplanted it to a more open space. You can see the deformed leaves where the spear has been damaged.:

Washingtonia filifera (self-sown from rps):

W.Filifera-Triple, September 2019:

spring 2020:

Damn wild boars

 

W. Filifera-Solitary, September 2019:

September 2020 (without any supplemental irrigation):

 

On 11/8/2018 at 1:23 PM, LivistonaFan said:

 

Chamaerops humilis vulcano:

November 2018:

September 2020 (regrowth after it got mowed down in Summer 2019. Not too sure anymore if it is the real vulcano form):

A worker did cut the leaves of the Jubaea on one side therefore it is slightly unsightly. Furthermore it hasn't grown much this year(3 leaves for now). I hope it will grow much quicker next year.

New palms planted in September 2020:

Chamaerops humilis argentea (2nd try)

First one was in bad condition when I planted it in September 2018 (can be seen at the beginning of the page). After it got cut down accidentally together with the vulcano form, it did not regrow. 

I am sure the new one is in much better condition, although grown in a low-light situation before I got it in July.

Trithrinax campestris:

I must admit, I could have waited a little longer before planting it.

Livistona nitida:

Again, it might not have been that clever to plant it that small.

2x W. robusta (self-sown from rps):

In the beginning I didn't want to plant them both, but @kinzyjr persuaded me to do so. They were planted on each side of the remaining W.filifera (distance ~1,5m) and I am guessing this setting will look very good within a few years. Second exemplary is looking quite similar, therefore no additional photo.

Phoenix sylvestris robusta:

It seems to have phenomenal root growth (better than Phoenix dactylifera and canariensis of equal size)

Attention! Not a palm-related photo!

3x Cycas revoluta:

I know they are ubiquitous and some might find them boring. But I agree with @sipalms .  There is a high chance that we will face colder-than-average winters again and Sago palms provide a "subtropical" appearance while being very cold-and drought-tolerant. "Soon" I will plant a Cycas taitungensis and a Dioon edule queretaro blue ("soon" is relative if you are talking about small cycads in absolutely non-tropical climates).

Brahea edulis:

It seems to be an excellent palm for the climate as it is quicker growing than I thought even in cool conditions+ it should be perfectly drought- and also quite cold-tolerant when established. It almost looks like a Pritchardia.

Thank you @James760 for recommending it.

Nannorrhops ritcheana:

@lzorrito did recommend this species. I purchased it a little bigger than I would normally do, because it is allegedly really slow growing when small. I am still a bit worried about the cool wet winters.  That's why I planted it slightly raised. It sits in the spot where the Butia was. I thought like that there would be less competition for the Jubaea.

from above:

 

[lzorrito 244]

@LivistonaFan, although they are growing alone and without irrigation other than rain, I have to say that they are fantastic and well established. So, I think that the new plantations will also follow the same path. You have a great place for that selection of palm trees and more. Excellent job!

[James760 457]

like lzorrito said everything looks fantastic! Nice work @LivistonaFan! 

Your Nannorrhops Ritchiana looks great! Mound planting it definitely will help it out during winter 

I really like your selection of palms & cycads.  I have Cycas Taitungensis & Dioon Edule Queretaro, as well as a few others. Cycas Panzhihuaensis & Guizhouensis are very cold hardy too. Would be nice addition 

What zone are you? What has been your coldest temperature past 10 years? 

[LivistonaFan 146]

14 hours ago, lzorrito said:

@LivistonaFan, although they are growing alone and without irrigation other than rain, I have to say that they are fantastic and well established. So, I think that the new plantations will also follow the same path. You have a great place for that selection of palm trees and more. Excellent job!

Thank you! I hope you are right as I am a bit worried about my smaller plantings.  The survival of Livistona chinensis shows me that my other palms will tolerate the conditions as well, because most of them are at least as cold-hardy and more drought-tolerant. The plants never will grow as fast though as they would in warmer regions with additional irrigation. I hope my future plantings of Parajubaea Tvm and Sunkha will be fine as well (+at least the Tvm shouldn't be irrigated in summer due to Phytophthora which is convenient for me).

2 hours ago, James760 said:

like lzorrito said everything looks fantastic! Nice work @LivistonaFan! 

Your Nannorrhops Ritchiana looks great! Mound planting it definitely will help it out during winter 

I really like your selection of palms & cycads.  I have Cycas Taitungensis & Dioon Edule Queretaro, as well as a few others. Cycas Panzhihuaensis & Guizhouensis are very cold hardy too. Would be nice addition 

What zone are you? What has been your coldest temperature past 10 years? 

Thank you as well! I must admit I have never heard of Cycas Guizhouensis. It looks absolutely stunning from what I can see on the internet

 

I would rate the hardiness zone as a low 9b or high 9a in normal winters. My temperature sensor is only installed since Autumn 2018, therefore I can only guess the temperature of previous years as the nearest official weather stations are over 20 km/ 12 mi away and either at much higher or lower elevations (+ Weather Underground Stations are few and far between and their recordings don't go back that much). 

I wouldn't be shocked if the location saw -6°C/21°F in the cold winter of 2010 and even lower in record-cold winters like 1985 or 1954. Also temperature doesn't rebound as quickly as in warmer, drier locations like yours. Therefore some snow accumulation and daytime temperatures that barely reach 0°C/32°F should be possible at this latitude + altitude and that would be far more damaging for the plants.