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LivistonaFan

Palms in northern mediterranean - 1450 ft a.s.l.

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LivistonaFan

Hello,

I planted the following palms in an olive grove:

  • Butia eriospatha
  • Chamaerops humilis var. 'cerifera'
  • Jubaea Chilensis
  • Livistona Chinensis 
  • Phoenix Canariensis
  • Rhapis excelsa

more will be planted in the next years, but primarily I have to check the cold hardiness zone (I will install a weather station soon to check the winter lows). I hope the lows in the coldest winters will at least be >18 fahrenheit <_<

DSC_0693.thumb.JPG.48a4545ba21c6733abbdeDSC_0694.thumb.JPG.7c7e5698f918d965ded9fDSC_0690.thumb.JPG.a24e836bfbf3657cd79d1DSC_0685.thumb.JPG.6a1a81932972f5c4658ca

Edited by LivistonaFan
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LivistonaFan

 

sorry, but I don't have better pictures for the Butia.

The Livistona had to lose its highest frond, because otherwise it would have been very difficult to transport it.

The soil is almost pure loam and very profound. At first I thought that it was impossible to dig deep holes, because the soil was bone-dry but with a little water it was almost easy. Later on I will add some bark mulch.

DSC_0676.thumb.JPG.ae7a1e9bdaf40c7b8b519DSC_0678.thumb.JPG.1b20c67350582889e0e64

 

Which do you think is the most likely to survive longterm and  which the least?

Edited by LivistonaFan
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dalmatiansoap

Depends on exact location. In my area Raphis and Livistona would be the most in danger. I lost few "bullet proof" palms for my zone due to wind after cold spell and on the other side I have few survivalists that will never gave them a chance.

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TexasColdHardyPalms

Rhapis is the most fragile of the group. Livistona will burn but is EXTREMELY bud hardy. They'll take single digits and come back. 

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Neil C

Well your soil looks good so thats a start. How wet are your winters? Your Chamaerops should be the hardiest if your winters are not too wet. I'm afraid I don't fancy your Raphis chances but I hope I'm wrong. Cudos to you for having a go.

Regards Neil

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Pal Meir

Your Chamaerops argentea doesn’t look good; why don’t you plant a normal Chamaerops which doesn't mind even wet winters? — The soil seems to be alkaline limestone (carbonate) if I am right. That can cause other problems with Butia and Jubaea. Did you measure the pH?

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LivistonaFan

@Neil C Of course, winters are wetter than summers, which is the definition of this type of climate^_^. But it rains considerably less in winter than for example the croatian coast down to the greek city Patras ( I quickly checked some climate charts). Furthermore the most precipation is in October and November which shouldn't hurt the palms to much. I hope the wall which is SW/W-facing helps the Rhapis in cold winter days:unsure:.

@Pal Meir I just like blue or silver palms very much and it would be a nice contrast to the others. If it dies I can replace it with a normal Chamaerops anyway as they are not that expensive. I think it was greenhouse grown because the leaves burned within two days after I received it. My cheap ph soil meter claimed that the ph is just above seven (very slightly), but I don't know if I can trust it.

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LivistonaFan

a soil map marks it as borderline between brown soils and lithosols/ alluvial soils:blink:

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Cikas

Chamaerops cerifera does not mind at all our humid winters here in Dubrovnik (Croatia). We have 1064 mm of rain per year. Most of that in late fall, winter and early spring. Our summers are hot and dry. 

Edited by Cikas

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Cikas

Here is mine Chamaerops cerifera.

P9061173.jpg

P9061174.jpg

P9061175.jpg
 

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LivistonaFan

@Cikas Very nice! How old is it? ( How long have I to wait to see my cerifera as big as yours?)

Edited by LivistonaFan

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Cikas
56 minutes ago, LivistonaFan said:

@Cikas Very nice! How old is it? ( How long have I to wait to see my cerifera as big as yours?)

It is planted 4+ years ago (I think). 

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LivistonaFan

Small Update:

after more than three weeks without much rain, it rained a lot in the last week:

  • Rhapis got accidentally removed by a neighbor:mellow: (maybe I will try another one next year)
  • Phoenix fried a lot of its oldest (greenhouse-grown) fronds, but the new spear seems O.K.
  • Butia seems ok (two spears browned off) and actively growing
  • the two yellow fronds of the Livistona Chinensis turned brown 
  • the Chamaerops Cerifera defoliated completely, but its center spear seems alright
  • I planted a Chamaerops humilis 'vulcano ( I know that isn't very clever that late in the year:rolleyes:)DSC_0953.thumb.JPG.57fc7e2d3c3f2353dd5315be42aa1b0042_DSC_0972(2).thumb.JPG.a1e8
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LivistonaFan

DSC_0971.JPG

DSC_0973.JPG

DSC_0970.JPG

 

 

 

 

Edited by LivistonaFan
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LivistonaFan

I just acquired three new palms which might be quite marginal for the location. After I know how low the temperature went this winter I will decide whether they stay in pots or go in the ground.

They aren`t rare palms but nonetheless quite exciting for me:

 

  • Rhapis humilis (as a substitution for the R. excelsa + supposed to be more cold hardy:D ; quite difficult to find in Germany)

DSC_1229.thumb.JPG.b2788fdc0f7c1af44358a

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LivistonaFan

Almost exactly one year later after the first post, most palms do not thrive (yet), but except for the Chamaerops humilis Cerifera all survived this year. They were just sporadically irrigated during their first summer, insufficient in a Mediterranean climate, but it was the only possible way.

First, some stats (data from December 1st to August 20th) to understand the new habitat of the palms :

[The "weather station" is north-facing (+never sees the sun) + it is relatively exposed to wind etc and not in proximity to any shelter/heated building--> I think it should be pretty accurate]

Winter was not too bad considering the location's latitude and altitude, but nonetheless cool/cold. 

  • 22 days below 50°F/10°C high temperature (4 in Dec/16 in Jan/2 in Feb)
  • lowest high temperature: 45.5°F/7.5°C (measured in Jan.)
  • 16 nights below 35°F/1.7°C (3 in Dec/13 in Jan/0 in Feb)
  • ultimate low: 30.2°F/-1°C (measured in Jan.)

--- > January is far colder than December and February. There is an extreme uniformity temperature-wise (so many nights fell below 35°F but none below 30°F)

summer was/is relatively cool for a Mediterranean climate with considerably lower night temperatures than the immediate coast:

  • 24 nights above 68°F
  • highest low temperature: 76°F/24.4°C
  • 29 days high temperatures above 90°F/32.2°C (I was too lazy to count all above 86°F which were much more)
  • ultimate high: 101.6°F/38.7°C

Jubaea Chilensis is clearly the winner in terms of drought tolerance (it got 11 leaves cut, half of them were still green:hmm:)jubaea(1).thumb.JPG.f83a4807a012541948c572d0f97ec11c.JPG

Phoenix Canariensis comes second (lost a few leaves, but has restarted its growth)

I removed it however and it will stay in a pot in Germany because of the hazard of the RPW (I know Jubaea is endangered as well, but I just want to see it getting big one day:unsure:. I will replace the Phoenix Canariensis with a Parajubaea Microcarpa next spring.

phoenix.thumb.JPG.b0495b0a5792fde64869921b9d301b4a.JPG

Third place is a tie between Livistona Chinensis and Butia Eriospatha

 

livistona.thumb.JPG.bfc7b28f697bdf3fc2f751c260b708fc.JPG

The Livistona lost all its leaves at some point in mid-summer (I guess it was due to its high evaporation of the palmate leaves and the comparatively small roots). But it has started to regrow strongly since then.

butia.thumb.JPG.5fabb287669bd078ccacfe3233824813.JPG

The Butia has not lost all of its leaves, but the spear dried up (I guess because of the drought). A new healthier spear is coming though.

Last Places are the two Chamaerops (which should have been the most adapted palms climate-wise)

The Chamaerops humilis 'Vulcano got mowed over :o(but still alive)

And the Cerifera passed away. As I promised, I will replace it with a standard green Chamaerops.

New palms:

I planted four of my Washingtonia filiferas (most likely not true filiferas):

I planted three of them with exactly 1.15 Meters space between them (I know it is tight, but I guess it should work)

DSC_2919.thumb.JPG.c39454ff09184f36786f3e8a3802f4ed.JPG

The fourth Washingtonia filifera is planted solitary, later on I will plant on each side one of my two Washingtonia robustas (of course with some distance)

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In the future, I will try to plant more exciting palms, but none of them have the right size yet.

I could also imagine a Dypsis Decipiens in a more protected spot, but I am not able to find one to buy:mellow:

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pete21

these dry stone walls with the palms are supèrb!

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UK_Palms

This is a very interesting thread. I will be sure to follow this closely from here on. I'm guessing this in Croatia? And if so, how far inland are you from the coastline?

I am particularly interested to see how your Washingtonia Filifera/Filibusta will do in that location. They take off like rockets where I am and withstand the worst that our winters can chuck at them. So they should do well for you. They'll definitely be the fastest growers there for sure. I'm surprised the Chamaerops Cerifera kicked the bucket for you though. Chamaerops in general grow extremely well here for me and don't take winter damage.

Have you thought about trying stuff like Syagrus Romanzoffiana or Chambeyronia Macrocarpa? They should do well for you, considering I can grow them here in sheltered, south facing positions. Both are definitely hardier than people realise.

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pete21

LivistonaFan, how your Jubaea chilensis s doing now? 

I want plant some of these.

I have -6 in winter and very hot summer.

Edited by pete21

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LivistonaFan
 
 
 
 
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On 1/12/2020 at 7:58 AM, UK_Palms said:

This is a very interesting thread. I will be sure to follow this closely from here on. I'm guessing this in Croatia? And if so, how far inland are you from the coastline?

I am particularly interested to see how your Washingtonia Filifera/Filibusta will do in that location. They take off like rockets where I am and withstand the worst that our winters can chuck at them. So they should do well for you. They'll definitely be the fastest growers there for sure. I'm surprised the Chamaerops Cerifera kicked the bucket for you though. Chamaerops in general grow extremely well here for me and don't take winter damage.

Have you thought about trying stuff like Syagrus Romanzoffiana or Chambeyronia Macrocarpa? They should do well for you, considering I can grow them here in sheltered, south facing positions. Both are definitely hardier than people realise.

Hello,

I am glad you like this thread. No, it is not in Croatia. But in Italy. Sea distance is after a short look on Google Maps a little more than 4 Miles / about 7 km linear distance.  But keep in mind that the terrain is 440 Meters above sea level, so it is colder than the immediate coast.

I am as well very interested in the future of the Washingtonias as they should be my fastest palms and almost bullet-proof once established (maybe a winter like 1985 could take them in, but I am not quite sure. There were most probably pre-1985 CIDPs in similar locations nearby, but now killed by the RPW). I don't think that the Chamaerops Cerifera died because of the winter, at least that was not the sole reason. As I wrote the lowest temperature was exactly -1°C and the winter itself is generally quite dry and sunny. Besides, Livistona Chinensis is much less leaf-hardy and looked quite good in spring.

Of course, I thought a lot about Syagrus romanzoffiana, but decided against it for now. They tend to exhibit quite thin stems + crowns if not irrigated and I am sure they will at least get badly damaged in one of these 30-year-record-cold-winters. Winter 2010 was cold and some queens nearby survived most likely undamaged (according to Google Maps), so there is a chance of long-time-survival. I have some self-sown Queens, so I might try them out, who knows. But firstly I will try to plant my Butia paraguayensis x S. romanzoffiana (presumably), which should give a similar look and more cold- and drought-hardiness. It would be great to have such a tropical-looking palm in the garden as Chambeyronia Macrocarpa and it can probably survive milder winters in the right location, but it would have even greater problems in summer drought and most-likely not even survive a year. Nonetheless thank you for sharing your experiences with this palm, I am very surprised it fares so well in warm-temperate conditions, so I will buy one soon:happy:.

8 hours ago, pete21 said:

LivistonaFan, how your Jubaea chilensis s doing now? 

I want plant some of these.

I have -6 in winter and very hot summer.

It should do well, in two months or so I will see it again. This winter it most likely has not seen anything below 0°C yet,  but even after -6 or -8 ° it should be undamaged (if the following day is above 0°C) 

As you say '-6 in winter', do you mean every winter? That seems quite cold for me considering the location you posted in one of the other threads.

Regardless, the climate in Jubaea's Chile is very very similar to yours. Once established, they should survive everything your climate confronts them with, be it cold, drought or extreme heat.

Therefore plant them (but not too close to your house:P), they are great palms. The more, the better.

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pete21

Thanks LivigstonaFan, I found a beautiful one trunk of 30-40 cm for 75 e, I will get it and a Robelinii 40 cm height for 40e.

yes i got -6 every winter indeed but it warm up quickly to +6 to +12 durring the day. al year long cool nights, even in summer. its 250 m altitude.

now i understand he will be fine during winter but summer with heat? under the sun one day my termometer stopped working at 56 degrees celcius this summer, so i will plant it where there is shade but where its not too humid. Thanks! And i red he prefer ph acid and mine is 8,5.

there is a guy offering for free a Livinstona? kind of flat trunk of 3,1 meters of circonference, palm is maybe 8-10 meters tall. its free , you just need to pick it up.

I saw regurlarly people offering big palms for free, or they disturb electrical lines or the house etc....last year i have an opportunity with some washingtonian disturbing an electrical line but they were 8 to 10 meters tall, fine trunk and not much root mass, very dificult to keep standing up the first days with such a windy place like i have and i gave up, if the palm is big and with huge root mass its ok, but too tall, too fine trunk and no roots make it too dificult even with 4 huge stalks.

Edited by pete21

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LivistonaFan

This thread should help to answer your post:

I can't really comment about the prices you posted, because outside of Southern Europe prices are generally higher. I paid for example 150 for my Jubaea (my most expensive palm), whereas the Livistona did cost 60. The price tag for your Roebelinii seems quite expensive, but I could be wrong. If it is well acclimatized and not greenhouse-grown, which at least in Northern Europe very few are, it might be worth its money.

As I mentioned, I don't think a Jubaea will have any problems in your climate, even in full sun.  It seems to be pretty hot at your location, but it can't possibly be as long as hot as the Coachella Valley, in which this 'palmtalker' (Danilopez89) lives.  Moreover, it would be pretty difficult to let this eventually big palm grow in shade to maturity (I can't remember bigger canopy trees in your photos...) 

Yes, to my knowledge at least, most of the South-American palms (including Jubaea, Butia,...) like acidic soils, but tolerate slightly alkaline ones as well. Ph 8,5 seems a little bit high to me though, so you could try to lower it a bit (to 7-7.5) before plantation (there are many articles on the internet about acidifying the soil).

I don't have any experience with moving and transplanting such big palms. One thing I am sure of: It is much more rewarding to transplant a slower, more uncommon palm like a Livistona than an extremely fast-growing and ubiquitous palm like the Washingtonia is.

By saying you 'gave up', do you mean you really have tried to transplant one last year and failed? If so, do you have any pictures of the process?

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LivistonaFan

The last few weeks were extremely rainy. Now some of the leaf bases are detached, exposing some "trunk".  Is this normal and the trunk girth will further expand or is it rather unusual? I am worried this could be some disease, because I have only seen much bigger Jubaea showing their trunk.IMG-20200619-WA0004.thumb.jpg.36cafee8a2b1c93b72c1a0fb9a9314bb.jpgIMG-20200619-WA0005.thumb.jpg.1cf1388d246635e59eed45ef4bd71785.jpgIMG-20200619-WA0008.thumb.jpg.c01c7894a8ed1dc0fc49d817e8f6958a.jpg

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