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Chris Wilson

Trachycarpus Fortunei Winsan

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Chris Wilson

Anybody growing Trachycarpus Fortunei Winsan? I have one that is about 5 1/2 years old, it is a very fast growing palm it's around 9 feet tall at its tallest leaf tips now. There is not very much information or photos of this palm, I've read that the mother palm has 360 degree fronds but none of seedlings were showing that trait so far. My palms fronds are getting rounder but are not 360 degrees yet. I also read that it is less hardy than regular Fortunei but since I live in Ohio I have to protect it every winter, the lowest my palm has seen unprotected is 19 f. If anybody has any Photos or information about this palm please share. Here is some photos showing the growth of my palm, the first photo is from a few months after I planted it  August 2016 and the second is what it looks like now August 2018.

IMG_3446.JPG

IMG_9073.jpg

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Flow

That is some good stuff! Everything I know is exactly what you wrote above. There does not seem to be much experience with this one. Mine is much smaller and still potted but looks the same overall. I think it is a very graceful form.

20180719_171941.thumb.jpg.24034f3c85269f

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RJ

Wow Chris, I'm not a big fan of Trachycarpus spp. , but that is a stunning looking palm! 

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Chris Wilson
31 minutes ago, Flow said:

That is some good stuff! Everything I know is exactly what you wrote above. There does not seem to be much experience with this one. Mine is much smaller and still potted but looks the same overall. I think it is a very graceful form.

20180719_171941.thumb.jpg.24034f3c85269f

Nice palm! That is exactly what mine looked like when i planted it, I agree they are beautiful palms even when small.

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Chris Wilson
29 minutes ago, RJ said:

Wow Chris, I'm not a big fan of Trachycarpus spp. , but that is a stunning looking palm! 

Thanks RJ! I wasn't looking for a specific type of Trachycarpus Fortunei when I bought it, I just bought a palm that I thought was a good deal. I didn't realize how rare this form is.

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Cikas

Your palm looks like normal fortunei. ''Winsan'' mutation is like ''Lisa'' mutation of Sabal. It is not stable. Only small number of seedlings will have Winsan mutation. Your palm does not have that mutation. Only palms with Winsan mutation are Trachycarpus fortunei Winsan. 

Edited by Cikas

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Chris Wilson
1 hour ago, Cikas said:

Your palm looks like normal fortunei. ''Winsan'' mutation is like ''Lisa'' mutation of Sabal. It is not stable. Only small number of seedlings will have Winsan mutation. Your palm does not have that mutation. Only palms with Winsan mutation are Trachycarpus fortunei Winsan. 

I honestly don't think that it's a normal Fortunei, I have never heard of one growing as fast as these do. My palm has added 2 1/2 feet of overall height in just the last 5 months. As far as I no none of the seedlings from the mother 'Winsan' has the 360 degree leaves, just a faster growth rate, but mine seems to be getting closer as it gets bigger. Here's one of the new fronds getting closer to 360.

IMG_5984.jpg

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Flow
2 hours ago, Cikas said:

Your palm looks like normal fortunei. ''Winsan'' mutation is like ''Lisa'' mutation of Sabal. It is not stable. Only small number of seedlings will have Winsan mutation. Your palm does not have that mutation. Only palms with Winsan mutation are Trachycarpus fortunei Winsan. 

This is the first time I hear somebody say it is a mutation. From where did you get that information?  Not even Garry told me that and he should know. It clearly is not a normal fortunei.

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Manalto

Any variant that is not environmental and is a departure from the characteristics of the parent species is a mutation. Your own comment " It clearly is not a normal fortunei." is simply another way of saying it's a mutation. Not sure who Garry is but he probably didn't mention it because it goes without saying.

Edited by Manalto
clarity
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Cikas
1 hour ago, Flow said:

This is the first time I hear somebody say it is a mutation. From where did you get that information?  Not even Garry told me that and he should know. It clearly is not a normal fortunei.

It is mutation just like Lisa. It is not true from the seeds. Only small number of seedlings from Winsan mother will have Winsan mutation. That palm at that age would already have full Winsan leaves (if it was a true Winsan). That is the reason why Winsan Trachycarpus are very rare in cultivation. Mutation is recessive. Because of that it can not be mass producted. 

Edited by Cikas

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Cikas
1 hour ago, Chris Wilson said:

I honestly don't think that it's a normal Fortunei, I have never heard of one growing as fast as these do. My palm has added 2 1/2 feet of overall height in just the last 5 months. As far as I no none of the seedlings from the mother 'Winsan' has the 360 degree leaves, just a faster growth rate, but mine seems to be getting closer as it gets bigger. Here's one of the new fronds getting closer to 360.

IMG_5984.jpg

That is normal Trachycarpus leaf. It is beautiful palm. But it is not Winsan. :) 

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Chris Wilson

I'll rephrase my original post. Is there anybody growing a palm that came from the seeds from the original 'Winsan' palm? Does it have 360 degree leaves? Fast growth rate? Cold hardiness? Any photos? 

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TexasColdHardyPalms

I have one winsan with 360 and the other is 270 degrees or so. Nova grow faster than winsan and are hands down the fastest trachy. 

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Chris Wilson
9 hours ago, TexasColdHardyPalms said:

I have one winsan with 360 and the other is 270 degrees or so. Nova grow faster than winsan and are hands down the fastest trachy. 

Cool! How big was your Winsan when it started getting 360 degree fronds? I have a Nova, I actually got it from you this past winter. It's been kind of slow but I think it's just getting its roots established right now.

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Flow
On 5.9.2018, 03:59:11, TexasColdHardyPalms said:

I have one winsan with 360 and the other is 270 degrees or so. Nova grow faster than winsan and are hands down the fastest trachy. 

And what about coldhardiness? Compared to fortunei / to nova?

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David York

I have some Winsans grown from seeds supplied by Garry Tsen in China. I can't upload pictures right now, but they started to develop 360 degree leaves at around 12 inches in height.

At this stage, it's not possible to say with any certainty what Winsan actually is. Its appearance doesn't look much like a fortunei, so whether it's a hybrid, a mutation, or a completely different or new species, is still very unclear.

However, whatever it is, it's certainly a very special Trachycarpus for sure.

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Chester B

Not to muddy the waters here but I have regular fortunei that produce 360 degree fronds regularly.  I know from speaking with the owner of the local palm nursery he sees this often and doesn't think much of it other than it's natural variation within the species.  To me it seems like this may be more of a marketing ploy??

Pics attached of two of my palms displaying 360 fronds.  I can say they grow at the regular rate of other fortunei I have.

360 2.jpg

360 3.jpg

360 4.jpg

360 1.jpg

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Cikas
3 hours ago, Chester B said:

Not to muddy the waters here but I have regular fortunei that produce 360 degree fronds regularly.  I know from speaking with the owner of the local palm nursery he sees this often and doesn't think much of it other than it's natural variation within the species.  To me it seems like this may be more of a marketing ploy??

Pics attached of two of my palms displaying 360 fronds.  I can say they grow at the regular rate of other fortunei I have.

360 2.jpg

360 3.jpg

360 4.jpg

360 1.jpg

Tesan is not really an accepted form. It is just an recesive mutation. Among regular fortunei offsprings you can get Tesan. Your palm is Tesan ( it has Tesan mutation ). First known Tesan was an offspring of regular fortunei.

Edited by Cikas

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RaleighNC

I am curious how we can know that it is a recessive mutation, rather than just a quantitative trait that varies continuously dependent upon multiple genes? Does anyone have sufficiently detailed observations over multiple generations to be sure? 

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Cikas
2 hours ago, RaleighNC said:

I am curious how we can know that it is a recessive mutation, rather than just a quantitative trait that varies continuously dependent upon multiple genes? Does anyone have sufficiently detailed observations over multiple generations to be sure? 

Dominant mutations are...  well, dominant. If Winsan was a dominant mutation, almost all offsprings would be Winsan. We know it is recesive because it is rare, and even Winsan parents will only have few Winsan offsprings, others will be regular fortunei.

All different traits are always mutations. Evolution works with mutations. Everything that looks different than normal type is mutation. Even in human species, for example blue and green eyes were mutations, brown eyes were normal type. Soo brown eyes are the most common eye color. Genes for brown eyes are dominant.

In palms ( and other plant species, as well as animals ) is the same. There are many mutations. When these mutations become very common in one area of natural habbitat and all specimens there look the same or very similar to each other, then we have a new form, subspecies.

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Cikas
6 hours ago, Cikas said:

Tesan is not really an accepted form. It is just an recesive mutation. Among regular fortunei offsprings you can get Tesan. Your palm is Tesan ( it has Tesan mutation ). First known Tesan was an offspring of regular fortunei.

I mean Winsan, not Tesan. :blush:

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Chris Wilson
17 hours ago, David York said:

I have some Winsans grown from seeds supplied by Garry Tsen in China. I can't upload pictures right now, but they started to develop 360 degree leaves at around 12 inches in height.

At this stage, it's not possible to say with any certainty what Winsan actually is. Its appearance doesn't look much like a fortunei, so whether it's a hybrid, a mutation, or a completely different or new species, is still very unclear.

However, whatever it is, it's certainly a very special Trachycarpus for sure.

That's where my palm originally came from too. I don't think it looks like a regular fortunei either, I have had a few people say that my palm looks like a Nova but the person I bought it from said that he was growing Winsan and Nova at the same time and they were definitely not the same thing. I also wondered if it could be some sort of hybrid and the fast growth could be from hybrid vigor but I don't know if that happens in palms lol.

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Chris Wilson
10 hours ago, Chester B said:

Not to muddy the waters here but I have regular fortunei that produce 360 degree fronds regularly.  I know from speaking with the owner of the local palm nursery he sees this often and doesn't think much of it other than it's natural variation within the species.  To me it seems like this may be more of a marketing ploy??

Pics attached of two of my palms displaying 360 fronds.  I can say they grow at the regular rate of other fortunei I have.

I really like the look of the 360 degree fronds. I was thinking that it could just be a marketing ploy too and the 360 degree leaves of Winsan was just natural variation. But there seems to be other differences, like the fast growth and from what I've read the seed arrangement is also different than regular fortunei. 

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Flow

I am not convinced that it is a recessive mutation. Even without 360 degree fronds, Winsan is more slender and faster than regular fortunei while looking less tatty than nova. This seems to be always the case.

Edited by Flow

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David York
22 minutes ago, Flow said:

..........Winsan is more slender and faster than regular fortunei while looking less tatty than nova. This seems to be always the case.

 

I totally agree, only after growing them do you realise how distinctly different they actually are.

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Cikas
2 hours ago, Flow said:

I am not convinced that it is a recessive mutation. Even without 360 degree fronds, Winsan is more slender and faster than regular fortunei while looking less tatty than nova. This seems to be always the case.

First Winsan came from regular fortunei parents. Winsan habbitat can not be find anywere in the world. Population of Winsan in the wild does not exist. We only have few specimens among regular fortunei. Soo it is definitely a recessive mutation and not a new form or species. 

Edited by Cikas

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Cikas
9 hours ago, Chris Wilson said:

That's where my palm originally came from too. I don't think it looks like a regular fortunei either, I have had a few people say that my palm looks like a Nova but the person I bought it from said that he was growing Winsan and Nova at the same time and they were definitely not the same thing. I also wondered if it could be some sort of hybrid and the fast growth could be from hybrid vigor but I don't know if that happens in palms lol.

Your fortunei looks normal to me. Looks the same as some of mine. As for growth rate, fortunei is a fast species. In my climate they are very fast. They can grow from a seedling to a 1,5-2 m palm in just few years. Also some grow faster some slower (normal variation among species). 

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RaleighNC
12 hours ago, Cikas said:

Dominant mutations are...  well, dominant. If Winsan was a dominant mutation, almost all offsprings would be Winsan. We know it is recesive because it is rare, and even Winsan parents will only have few Winsan offsprings, others will be regular fortunei.

All different traits are always mutations. Evolution works with mutations. Everything that looks different than normal type is mutation. Even in human species, for example blue and green eyes were mutations, brown eyes were normal type. Soo brown eyes are the most common eye color. Genes for brown eyes are dominant.

In palms ( and other plant species, as well as animals ) is the same. There are many mutations. When these mutations become very common in one area of natural habbitat and all specimens there look the same or very similar to each other, then we have a new form, subspecies.

I disagree with several things here. First, most traits are not determined by a single gene locus as you imply. Most traits are determined by the total effect of multiple genes and therefore do not follow a simple dominant/recessive pattern. Possibly the Winsan trait does follow a dominant/recessive pattern, but if this were true, and if it is a recessive trait, we would expect the following: 1) offspring from a winsan parent and a normal fortune would yield either zero winsan offspring or 50% winsan offspring depending on whether the normal fortune has one copy of the winsan gene, 2) offspring from the cross of two winsan parents would yield 100% winsan offspring, 3) there would be no evidence of intermediate types in any of these crosses. Does anyone have evidence of this kind that would support or refute a true recessive nature of this trait? 

If crosses result in offspring that are intermediate between Winsan and a normal fortunei, then this is probably a quantitative trait controlled by multiple genes. In this case, if some plant in nature happens to have a full 360 fan, then it might have appeared out of sheer luck because it happens to have acquired a set of genes which, in combination, gives it a form that is at the far end of the natural range of trait variation in the population. 

Also, it is not true that all new variants in a species arise from mutations. Other kinds of events are important for generating new kinds of variation, such as chromosomal rearrangements, crossing over, or introgression from another species.     

Finally, we have to be careful how we use the term mutation. A mutation is a genetic change at a single location on a chromosome. The Winsan trait might be the result of a mutation, but a plant the exhibits the Winsan trait should not be called a mutation.  

Edited by RaleighNC
typo

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David York

I've grown hundreds of fortunei over many decades and yes, you can get a fair bit of variation. By growing lots of them is how you notice differences within the species.

However, I can only go on my own experience, and I can honestly say that none of my Winsans look remotely like any fortunei that I have ever grown. They seem very different indeed.

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David York

Some interesting pictures taken from Garry's website.

Notice in particular the unusual branching arrangement of the fruits.

20101214.jpg

winsan_seeds.jpg

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Cikas
2 hours ago, RaleighNC said:

 

Also, it is not true that all new variants in a species arise from mutations. Other kinds of events are important for generating new kinds of variation, such as chromosomal rearrangements, crossing over, or introgression from another species.     

Finally, we have to be careful how we use the term mutation. A mutation is a genetic change at a single location on a chromosome. The Winsan trait might be the result of a mutation, but a plant the exhibits the Winsan trait should not be called a mutation.  

Mixing with other species will result hybrids, not new variant of the species. Chromosomal rearrangements is Chromosomal mutation. Every new trait not find in regular/normal form of the species is result of mutation of a gene or genes. Even if you have mutations on multiple genes and even if trait is result of multiple genes, they will still follow Dominant, Recessive route. Every gene in the cells is always dominant or recesive. This is how genes and traits work. That said, only Trachycarpus fortunei specimens with 360 degree fronds are Winsan. Winsan trait is mutation, but Trachycarpus fortunei Winsan is mutant (that would be correct term). :) 

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RaleighNC
5 minutes ago, Cikas said:

Mixing with other species will result hybrids, not new variant of the species. Chromosomal rearrangements is Chromosomal mutation. Every new trait not find in regular/normal form of the species is result of mutation of a gene or genes. Even if you have mutations on multiple genes and even if trait is result of multiple genes, they will still follow Dominant, Recessive route. Every gene in the cells is always dominant or recesive. This is how genes and traits work. That said, only Trachycarpus fortunei specimens with 360 degree fronds are Winsan. Winsan trait is mutation, but Trachycarpus fortunei Winsan is mutant (that would be correct term). :) 

Not all genes are either dominant or recessive. Many operate under incomplete dominance whereby the trait is determined by gene dosage. In other words, individuals with one copy of an allele has a phenotype that is intermediate between those individuals with zero copies and those with two copies.

If you include chromosomal rearrangements within your concept of mutation, then definitely a dominant/recessive behavior of these mutations cannot be expected.

Lateral transfer of genetic material between closely related species is common. If we dismiss as hybrids all individuals that contain any amount of DNA from previous crosses with another species, the concept of species in plants would be hopeless. 

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Vic

Just reading this thread for the first time and some interesting comments have been made. As David has pointed out var 'winsan' does seem to be different and it's not just about the 360 leaf shape, but this is obviously the main characteristic. It may well be a mutant, but this does not necessarily mean that crossing 2 winsans will not produce winsans. If we consider T.wagnerianus is also considered a mutant as it is not found in the wild, but if you cross wag x wag guess what? you get wag with maybe a very small percentage of fortunei. I also seem to remember Garry first using the winsan name to describe his findings, and it would seem now that everyone who has a trachy with 360 leaves has a winsan and I'm not sure this is the case as David has highlighted the seed formation is like nothing I've seen. 

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