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Sabal_Louisiana

95 potential Palm species that could be grown on the northern Gulf Coast of the US

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GaDawg
4 hours ago, Alicehunter2000 said:

I grew this P. Sylvestris from seed ... it's really starting to turn into something nice. I purchased the mother of this tree from Albert Livingston Palms in Homestead Florida more than 15 years ago...this palm is probably 10 years old.

20181222_163709.jpg

 Or the greatest picture, but this Sylvester is about 7 years old in a mild 8b zone. It hasn’t once defoliated since it was planted some time ago. You can’t tell it from the picture, but it has about a 3’ 8 inch or so trunk on it. 

D425ED1E-7861-4D76-A0B5-9297362D269A.jpeg

Edited by GaDawg
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Alicehunter2000
4 hours ago, kinzyjr said:

 

Nice one !

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GaDawg
On 12/20/2018, 5:19:18, Xenon said:

Galveston is a solid 9b, borderline 10a. Low there did not drop below 30F from 1997-2009. Probably only Grand Isle/extreme southeastern LA can rival it. Last winter was a landscape changing freeze (25F), the streets are now full of dead (though a few seem to be regenerating) "Norfolk Island Pines" (Araucaria columnaris) that had been there since the early 2000s. A few royals and foxtails managed to squeak by. Lots of nice Bismarckia. It looks a lot less tropical now, but people were pulling some crazy zone pushes back in the 2000s. Mature Carpentaria, Satakentia, Dypsis lutescens etc. 

Houston (especially the core and south of I-10) and New Orleans are probably milder than even the warmest micro-climates in AL/MS/FL Panhandle. There are many old queen palms and pygmy dates. 

There are a lot of mature Washingtonia filifera in Galveston. Pretty sure it is even more steamy than S. Florida in the summer. 

I’ve noticed this also. It seems like the panhandle is a colder 9a and 8b than the one here on the Atlantic cost. I’m not sure , but I feel like they get much more of the artic dips than we do close to the Atlantic coast in northeastern Florida and southeastern Georgia. 

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Alicehunter2000

2 Trithrinx brasilensis ....they seem pretty bulletproof.

20181223_113654.jpg

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Alicehunter2000

The second one .... they grow at the base of two tall W. robusta

20181223_113705.jpg

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Estlander
21 hours ago, Alicehunter2000 said:

Was unsure of A. engleri for my area ....but this one I've grown from seed has been slow but reliable. 

 

A. Engleri, though not very common, does fine in these parts. There's one in Destin that I know of. These Google maps images are from May 2011. Just saw it a couple of days ago and it looked very good.

1.JPG

2.JPG

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Estlander

And right across the street from that house there are these Queens that are looking great as well.Took that pic a week ago.

They suffered no damage after last January's two freezes.

IMG_0216.JPG

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Alicehunter2000

Nice....good eye ....keep hoping more hardy queens are available....eventually

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Alicehunter2000

Hey Andre I'm over on East 30a ... maybe have a PRA this spring/summer?

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Estlander
15 minutes ago, Alicehunter2000 said:

Hey Andre I'm over on East 30a ... maybe have a PRA this spring/summer?

Yeah, I'm down with that :)

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Estlander
1 hour ago, Estlander said:

A. Engleri, though not very common, does fine in these parts. There's one in Destin that I know of. These Google maps images are from May 2011. Just saw it a couple of days ago and it looked very good.

 

Just wanted to add for informational purposes that A. Engleri is said to like shade or filtered light and not full sun. The above mentioned A. Engleri is on the south side of the house facing the Gulf and gets full sun all day long with no ill effects whatsoever.

Edited by Estlander

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Sandy Loam

To follow up on your comment, I have two Arenga Engleri Palms growing in shade and I find them to be too slow growing there.  For that reason, I would recommend planting them in sun, despite what you may have read about their preference for shade.  I have seen huge ones growing in full sun in the Tampa Bay area and they did not seem to be bothered by it in the least. 

Destin should be a no-brainer for this palm.  Mine have never been damaged in the slightest since I planted them seven years ago.  They have seen a couple of major cold snaps.   I would not hesitate to plant this palm in zone 8b, and Destin is 9a.  It would do fine up in freezing cold Defuniak Springs or chilly Marianna too, and I would be surprised if it suffered damage out in the open up there.

 

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Tropicdoc

Just my experience..... I lost an Arenga Engleri last year to 18 F under canopy 

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krishnaraoji88

If you can get Arenga ryukyuensis they're much more cold tolerant, at least in my experience. I keep the pure engleri under dense canopy so they stay a bit warmer but the ryukyuensis are at the edges so they get more sun and grow faster. These totally can tolerate and thrive in full sun though

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Alicehunter2000

Yeah...not so sure they would not get damaged north of the coast...especially up north of I-10 corridor ....it gets down into the teens sometimes up there ... and freeves fairly regularly 

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Alicehunter2000

Destin has a bit of advantage over me due to the Inland bays to the North

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Alicehunter2000

Krishna....my friend gave me some small ones...can't remember which. ..is there a way to distinguish between the two leaf wise?

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Manalto

A local landscaper (Theodore, AL)  who specializes in palms tells me Arenga engleri are a no-go in the Mobile area (including Dauphin Island). Apparently they defoliate too regularly, leaving a stump for too long before regrowth, to be viable for use in the landscape. , Since sugar palm is borderline here, A. ryukyuensis may be just the ticket if its cold tolerance is better.

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RJ
9 minutes ago, Manalto said:

 Since sugar palm is borderline here, A. ryukyuensis may be just the ticket if its cold tolerance is better.

Yep, but for the life of me I can't put my hands on one. Plenty in Europe., where it seems the majority *more* cold hardy palms are. :rolleyes:

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Estlander

This is how the A. Engleri looks like today. 

ABFE4210-2055-4110-A612-4D5211B802B8.jpeg

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krishnaraoji88
3 hours ago, Alicehunter2000 said:

Krishna....my friend gave me some small ones...can't remember which. ..is there a way to distinguish between the two leaf wise?

I was not able to. Eric had a post on here about the difference in leaves but honestly they all look the same to my uncouth self

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necturus

My Arenga engleri died in last year's freeze. We probably got to around 20 and only warmed up to 36 or 38. There was freezing rain beforehand. It was not under canopy. Was around a 5 gallon sized plant and had been in the ground all summer. I thought it was going to come back from the roots, but it eventually gave up.

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Tropicdoc

This thread confirms that Arenga engleri is not as hardy as listed on other sites on the Internet 

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Sandy Loam

Perhaps mine were mature enough already because I bought them as fifteen gallon size plants.  Mine might also have been Arenga ryukyuensis (or whatever the Taiwanese variety is) instead of Arenga Engleri.  However, they were tagged as either Arenga Engleri or perhaps as the Dwarf Sugar Palm when I bought them from Palm Freddy's in St. Augustine, Florida.

All I know is that whatever cold snaps I have been hit with since about 2011 or 2012, these two palms have absolutely never been damaged. This includes one night in January 2018 when one part of my yard hit 23.4 Fahrenheit and another part hit 24.4 F, according to my thermometers.  I sure had colder temperatures than this in the extreme cold snaps of 2009/2010, but my Arengas were not planted yet at that time.

By the way, my Arenga Micrantha is MUCH less cold-hardy, or at least less leaf-hardy in colder years, when compared with Arenga Engleri.

 

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Sandy Loam

(Continued)

I searched for the post by ERIC-IN-ORLANDO on PalmTalk on those topic and found the following:

 

There may be other PalmTalk threads as well.  What I have gleaned from this thread is that the hardier Taiwanese variety does not grow as large and has ribbed leaflets, whereas ordinary Arenga Angleri has smooth leaflets. 

I could be mistaken, but I thought I had read somewhere that the Taiwanese species also had a slightly different colour and the jagged leaflet edges were different too. Does one type have smooth leaf edges whereas the other has jagged leaf edges?  Also, do I recall correctly that the pure Arenga Engleri has a greener colour than the Taiwanese variety?  Isn't the Taiwanese type a bit less green and a bit more blue-hued or greyish (and tougher looking, whereas Arenga Engleri has a more graceful/softer drooping appearance)?  I may remembering all of this incorrectly.

 

 

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Sandy Loam

Back again ---

I just found the following about Arenga Ryukyuensis on PalmPedia:

http://www.palmpedia.net/wiki/Arenga_ryukyuensis

Interestingly, Palmpedia identifies it as a Japanese palm from the Ryukyu islands, and not from Taiwan.  It also says that this palm is a USDA zone 9a palm, not 8b.  It also indicates that the primary difference with Arenga Engleri is visible in the fruits, not any of the traits referenced above.  I may simply be mistaken and I can't recall where I read those details about the Taiwanese type.

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necturus

I know of at least two larger Arenga engleri in the Houston area that survived last two years' winters. These plants saw 20 degrees at least three times. They both completely defoliated. They were under canopy. I think Arenga engleri is worth growing under canopy in low zone 9a climates, but it's iffy in zone 8b.

I visited the island of Iriomote, one of the Ryukyu Islands, a couple years ago. I saw the Arenga palms there in person. To be honest, I think the Arenga engleri cultivated here in the states look very different. The palms on Iriomote were quite large, and their leaves did not seem as stiff. 

It's also hard to understand why the palms in Taiwan would be less hardy than the ones on the Ryukyu Islands. The Ryukyu Islands are almost as close to Taipei as Taipei is to mainland China. They have a very similar climate, although Taiwan has mountains that have a more temperate climate. Take a look at Pal Meir's pictures, Iriomote is home to Nypa fruticans, a most sensitive palm.

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Tropicdoc

It’s really not apples to apples comparing cold hardiness of the gulf south to that of Northern California. I’m sure others on this thread will vouch for that. Something about our wet winter fronts does a number on palms. Not trying to be argumentative, just bringing that up again. 

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kinzyjr
5 minutes ago, Tropicdoc said:

It’s really not apples to apples comparing cold hardiness of the gulf south to that of Northern California. I’m sure others on this thread will vouch for that. Something about our wet winter fronts does a number on palms. Not trying to be argumentative, just bringing that up again. 

Exactly, hence the thread I posted shows observations from Daytona Beach, Orlando, and Zephyrhills... all in Central Florida.

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krishnaraoji88

Just to throw another wrench in the system here I thought of something else. When I was originally buying my Arenga engleri from a well respected SoFlo nursery (I bought 10 or so) there seemed to be two forms. There was one that had early clustering, brighter green leaves, and was more plumose. The others were a more dull green, didn't cluster until after 2-3 years in the ground (they had a large central leader), and leaves were in a single plane. All of the early cluster bright green ones died with freezes in the 23-25 degree range while the more dull green ones barely had any damage even when we had the 2010 freeze which killed young Queen palms here. Either there are two forms of this palm going around, the dull ones were Ryukyuenses, or there is another species often confused as engleri. Im not sure what the answer was. In response to the earlier question about telling the difference I will say that all my seed grown Ryukyuensis resembled the dull green single plane form that was hardy for me. :blink:

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Tropicdoc
8 hours ago, kinzyjr said:

Exactly, hence the thread I posted shows observations from Daytona Beach, Orlando, and Zephyrhills... all in Central Florida.

Oh...... didn’t fully read it..... my bad :mellow:

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Alicehunter2000

It would be really informative to have someone who has both types to take a side by side closeup of the leaflets to see if there is any distinguishable differences.

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Sandy Loam

I could swear that I have been to a botanical garden which had both types of Arenga "Engleri.". It might have been Leu Gardens in Orlando, but I can't remember now.  If it was Leu, perhaps ERIC will chime in with photos and the specifics of each type?

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Eric in Orlando

Arenga ryukuensis was separated out of A. engleri a few years back. It is a smaller growing palm , forming clumps 5-7ft tall, is native to the Ryukyu Islands at the south tip of Japan and is cold hardier. Arenga engleri is much larger forming clumps 8-10ft tall is native to western Taiwan and is less cold hardy. During the record freeze of Christmas 1989, Orlando had 2 nights with lows near 19-20F and the day between was only around 37F for a high. Arenga ryukyuensis suffered very little or no burn. Arenga engleri had severe burn on the foliage and some trunks were killed. This was from observations here at Leu Gardens and from a couple local palm collectors too. Back then A. ryukyuensis wasn't a separate species but it was noticed that the smaller form of A.engleri was hardier.

Arenga engleri has leaflets that are very silvery on the undersides. While the official description of A. rykyuensis says it has leaflets that are silver gray on the undersides, the 3 mature clumps here at Leu Gardens have more grayish green, not as intense as A. engleri. Both have very fragrant flowers. Arenga engleri seeds heavily and lots of seedling occur around our mature plants. Seedlings have also popped up throughout the 50 acres of Leu Gardens and several have been left to grow and form new clumps. I believe they are mammal spread and not bird as seedlings usually ocur in big clumps. Arenga ryukyuensis flowers but does not set much seed here and only a few seedlings have been found around the 3 mature specimens here.

Just from personal observations I believe there are Arenga engleri/ ryukyuensis hybrids in Florida as I have seen specimens that are bigger than A. ryukyuensis but smaller than A. engleri. Both forms have been grown in Florida for decades from undocumented seed sources. so it would be easy to think there are hybrids. Especially since A. ryukyuensis has only been recently separated out as a separate species.

Just to throw some confusion in here we have a couple specimens of Arenga engleri grown from seed collected in Okinawa. I do not know if it was from cultivated or wild palms. But Arenga engleri is not recorded as being wild in Okinawa. These specimens are getting larger but seem to have more upright leaves, not as curved at the tips.

 

 

 

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Eric in Orlando

Here are the descriptions of both from "Palms of Southern Asia" from Andrew Henderson;

Arenga engleri

"Stems clustered, to 4m tall and 15cm diameter, semelparous. Leaves to 3m long, ending in a triangular leaflet; leaflets linear with basal ears but these poorly developed; briefly lobed near the middle and at the apices, regularly arranged and spreading in the same plane, 38-41 per side of rachis, silvery gray on the lower surfaces. Inflorescences solitary at each node, to 0.6 m long, with to 15 flowering branches; fruits globose to 1.5cm diameter, orange to reddish"

 

Arenga ryukyuensis

"Stems clustered, to 2m tall and 20cm diameter, semelparous. Leaves to 2m long, ending in a triangular leaflet; leaflets linear with basal ears but these poorly developed; briefly lobed only near the apices, regularly arranged and spreading in the same plane, 32-48 per side of rachis, strongly ribbed on the upper surfaces, silvery gray on the lower surfaces. Inflorescences solitary at each node, to 0.5 m long, with to 30 flowering branches; fruits globose to 1.8cm diameter, orange to reddish"

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Eric in Orlando

This photo is from leaflets off mature specimens here at Leu Gardens; A. ryukyuensis, A. engleri and A. engleri from Okinawa. In each grouping the left leaflet is the upper side and the right leaflet is the underside.

arenga.jpg

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Eric in Orlando

Here are 2 mature Arenga ryukyuensis here at Leu. They are about 6-7ft tall, with flowering but non seeding stems.

 

arryu1.jpg

arryu2.jpg

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Eric in Orlando

This is one of the Okinawa Arenga engleri. It is an older photo. It was crushed under a fallen tree from Hurricane Irma but is growing back from the roots.

 

 

arokin.jpg

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