Northernmost East Coast Subtropical Climate

[NC_Palms]

When discussing comparable flora I’ll say the Delmarva Peninsula of extreme southern Delaware holds the northernmost subtropical climate in the East. What do you think qualifies as the northernmost subtropical climate? 

[PalmTreeDude]

I would say Northampton County VA and south is where it really gets to be a "solid" subtropical. Although there are a few more places up the Chesapeake Bay that qualify as subtropical on paper, it goes into coastal Maryland. I am amazed that Northampton County VA does not have Sabal palmetto everywhere. Not only is it a solid zone 8a but it is on the tip of a peninsula so it does not get those extremes (at least not as much) that Virginia Beach gets. Virginia beach has a lot of nice sized Sabal palmetto. Here are some that are unprotected (seen these in person in the middle of winter last year.) https://www.google.com/maps/@36.9124826,-76.0681415,3a,60y,13.21h,88.51t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1seT4mTtzgdqgvOJHH18GxRA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Also. https://www.google.com/maps/@36.9073634,-76.0721054,3a,75y,249.09h,89.27t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1seWZD3C4z6_2pvuvLNlQ7OQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656 (notice how the Butia does not look good but the Palmettos do.

Here is a big reason a lot of Palmetto die at Virginia Beach. https://www.google.com/maps/@36.906921,-76.0411604,3a,75y,352.44h,84.84t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sLAd_FAJ_yXSiC_IW_OJ3zA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656 As you can see they look newly transplanted (probably from Florida) and the picture was taken in September. If these did not get protected in the winter they probably would die because they are not established and were shocked from the cold that they did not get too much in Florida. Established Sabal palmetto do perfectly fine in Virginia Beach. Also, if you put a Palmetto right along the beach in VA (this is a problem with Delmarva as a whole) they end up getting completely destroyed from cold winds in the winter. Once you get about 1,000 feet from the beach you are safe from really bad winter winds. 

Here are some nice ones. https://www.google.com/maps/@36.8659452,-75.9810618,3a,75y,127.65h,83.4t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sx3cSnApPnywfurA2lmZ61g!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

But yeah, Northampton County VA and south (along the coast, it goes more inland the farther south you go) is what I would truly call subtropical. 

Edited August 12, 2018 by PalmTreeDude
Typo

[TexasColdHardyPalms]

Virginia beach doesn't have enough heat to regenerate a fresh dug sabal in a season. The long, cool winters compound this lack of summer heat.   In the grand scheme of things the area qualifies as a weak, heat deprived zone 8. 

[mdsonofthesouth]

If sabal palmetos are what yall are using as the benchmark for a "true" humid subtropic area then the lower half of the deep south from Beaumont Texas across to Macon well under the Appalachian mountains up to Columbia SC to Willmington NC is the only area that truly fits. 

 

For me it's from Frederick MD to just south of Wilmington DE and down skipping any and all Appalachian areas and I would say from around Lexington KY down on the other side of the mountains although Lexington is chilly compare to east of the Appalachian mountains. 

 

 

[TexasColdHardyPalms]

How exactly did Beaumont factor into your quoted Sabal Palmetto benchmark?

 

 

On 8/12/2018, 6:19:53, mdsonofthesouth said:

If sabal palmetos are what yall are using as the benchmark for a "true" humid subtropic area then the lower half of the deep south from Beaumont Texas across to Macon well under the Appalachian mountains up to Columbia SC to Willmington NC is the only area that truly fits. 

 

For me it's from Frederick MD to just south of Wilmington DE and down skipping any and all Appalachian areas and I would say from around Lexington KY down on the other side of the mountains although Lexington is chilly compare to east of the Appalachian 

[mdsonofthesouth]

Just where I decided to start my line in the west...

[cm05]

Depends on one’s definition of subtropical. I wouldn’t base it entirely off of an area’s flora (let alone a single species), as all flora was pushed southward during the most recent glacial maximum.

And I don’t see big heat as being a requirement for an area to be considered subtropical either. There are plenty of true subtropical climates that are cooler than here for much of the year.

[PalmatierMeg]

Climate is sometimes in the eye of the beholder.

Decades ago, before the advent of universal a/c, British Embassy employees in Washington, DC were given bonus pay for suffering through sweltering Washington area summers.

[mdsonofthesouth]

5 hours ago, PalmatierMeg said:

Climate is sometimes in the eye of the beholder.

Decades ago, before the advent of universal a/c, British Embassy employees in Washington, DC were given bonus pay for suffering through sweltering Washington area summers.

 

Alot of the time we have summer thay feels tropical but every so often it gets in the mid 80s and mild and reminds us that the DMV summer only pretends to be tropical lol.

[NC_Palms]

On 8/12/2018, 1:59:15, PalmTreeDude said:

I would say Northampton County VA and south is where it really gets to be a "solid" subtropical. Although there are a few more places up the Chesapeake Bay that qualify as subtropical on paper, it goes into coastal Maryland. I am amazed that Northampton County VA does not have Sabal palmetto everywhere. Not only is it a solid zone 8a but it is on the tip of a peninsula so it does not get those extremes (at least not as much) that Virginia Beach gets. Virginia beach has a lot of nice sized Sabal palmetto. Here are some that are unprotected (seen these in person in the middle of winter last year.) https://www.google.com/maps/@36.9124826,-76.0681415,3a,60y,13.21h,88.51t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1seT4mTtzgdqgvOJHH18GxRA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Also. https://www.google.com/maps/@36.9073634,-76.0721054,3a,75y,249.09h,89.27t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1seWZD3C4z6_2pvuvLNlQ7OQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656 (notice how the Butia does not look good but the Palmettos do.

Here is a big reason a lot of Palmetto die at Virginia Beach. https://www.google.com/maps/@36.906921,-76.0411604,3a,75y,352.44h,84.84t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sLAd_FAJ_yXSiC_IW_OJ3zA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656 As you can see they look newly transplanted (probably from Florida) and the picture was taken in September. If these did not get protected in the winter they probably would die because they are not established and were shocked from the cold that they did not get too much in Florida. Established Sabal palmetto do perfectly fine in Virginia Beach. Also, if you put a Palmetto right along the beach in VA (this is a problem with Delmarva as a whole) they end up getting completely destroyed from cold winds in the winter. Once you get about 1,000 feet from the beach you are safe from really bad winter winds. 

Here are some nice ones. https://www.google.com/maps/@36.8659452,-75.9810618,3a,75y,127.65h,83.4t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sx3cSnApPnywfurA2lmZ61g!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

But yeah, Northampton County VA and south (along the coast, it goes more inland the farther south you go) is what I would truly call subtropical. 

Palmettos seem to do well in Virginia Beach (and the OBX) when protected from the northern winds. Virginia beach needs invest in NC ecotype palms from BHI. They are bulletproof in Virginia. 

 

On 8/12/2018, 8:43:22, TexasColdHardyPalms said:

Virginia beach doesn't have enough heat to regenerate a fresh dug sabal in a season. The long, cool winters compound this lack of summer heat.   In the grand scheme of things the area qualifies as a weak, heat deprived zone 8. 

Virginia Beach definitely has hot and humid summers. On the immediate coast you'll get a cool down compared to areas inland. 

[mdsonofthesouth]

We have the same heat and humidity that Va beach has, just can get a hair colder in winter. Virginia beach is also an anomaly for the DMV. But despite that I doubt that a sabal palmetto could naturalize there, live protected in an ideal spot sure but not grow wild.

[NC_Palms]

On 8/22/2018, 2:41:42, mdsonofthesouth said:

We have the same heat and humidity that Va beach has, just can get a hair colder in winter. Virginia beach is also an anomaly for the DMV. But despite that I doubt that a sabal palmetto could naturalize there, live protected in an ideal spot sure but not grow wild.

I think it depends on the ecotype of sabal palmetto being grown. Those Florida transplants most likely won't make it but BHI palmettos would probably have a chance to naturalize in Virginia Beach, VA.

[mdsonofthesouth]

On 9/11/2018, 12:13:03, NC_Palms said:

I think it depends on the ecotype of sabal palmetto being grown. Those Florida transplants most likely won't make it but BHI palmettos would probably have a chance to naturalize in Virginia Beach, VA.

One of these days I'm going to try a BHI palmetto in the BEST spot. Move over butia capitata lol! Hope all os well on NC!

[NC_Palms]

On 9/13/2018, 6:30:35, mdsonofthesouth said:

One of these days I'm going to try a BHI palmetto in the BEST spot. Move over butia capitata lol! Hope all os well on NC!

That would be an interesting experiment for your location. Definitely keep us updated on that. 

  

[palmsOrl]

On 8/12/2018, 8:43:22, TexasColdHardyPalms said:

Virginia beach doesn't have enough heat to regenerate a fresh dug sabal in a season. The long, cool winters compound this lack of summer heat.   In the grand scheme of things the area qualifies as a weak, heat deprived zone 8. 

I bet the residents of VA Beach would laugh at calling the climate heat deprived (but I think you are right).

Even my relatives in the DC area emphasize how long, hot and humid the summers are there.

While I agree with the Koppen system in defining tropical climates, I think their definition of subtropical is a bit broad.  For example, New York City is considered to have a subtropical climate under the Koppen definition.  Reading, PA, where I live now (Wyomissing), is considered right on the edge of subtropical.  I beg to differ.

[NC_Palms]

23 hours ago, palmsOrl said:

I bet the residents of VA Beach would laugh at calling the climate heat deprived (but I think you are right).

Even my relatives in the DC area emphasize how long, hot and humid the summers are there.

While I agree with the Koppen system in defining tropical climates, I think their definition of subtropical is a bit broad.  For example, New York City is considered to have a subtropical climate under the Koppen definition.  Reading, PA, where I live now (Wyomissing), is considered right on the edge of subtropical.  I beg to differ.

 

The subtropical category seems to be growing, thus making it hard to determine what is a legit subtropical climate vs warm temperate oceanic climates.