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Where is California's absolute warmest Micro-climate zone 11a/b


veeman55

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I think Malibu is up there as well. Huntington beach is another spot that doesnt get cold. 

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The very warmest spots are areas along ridgetops, with cold-air drainage.

El Sereno, in Los Angeles, where I lived from 1998 to 2002, is one. The difference between a spot like that, and immediately adjacent colder areas can be very dramatic, even for a casual observer. For example, I'll never forget that morning when there was glistening ice on roofs of houses below me, while I was about 44 F. King palms in the valley froze; no harm to my much more tender A. tuckeri above.

The Hollywood Hills, Bel Air, and the like are other likely 11s. Parts of Malibu above the beach are also candidates, along with parts of Palos Verdes. I'll bet there's some ultra-warm spots in San Diego, too.

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Any data in this post is provided 'as is' and in no event shall I be liable for any damages, including, without limitation, damages resulting from accuracy or lack thereof, insult, or lost profits or revenue, claims by third parties or for other similar costs, or any special, incidental, or consequential damages arising out of my opinion or the use of this data. The accuracy or reliability of the data is not guaranteed or warranted in any way and I disclaim liability of any kind whatsoever, including, without limitation, liability for quality, performance, merchantability and fitness for a particular purpose arising out of the use, or inability to use my data. Other terms may apply.

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 7/18/2018, 9:39:37, DoomsDave said:

The very warmest spots are areas along ridgetops, with cold-air drainage.

El Sereno, in Los Angeles, where I lived from 1998 to 2002, is one. The difference between a spot like that, and immediately adjacent colder areas can be very dramatic, even for a casual observer. For example, I'll never forget that morning when there was glistening ice on roofs of houses below me, while I was about 44 F. King palms in the valley froze; no harm to my much more tender A. tuckeri above.

The Hollywood Hills, Bel Air, and the like are other likely 11s. Parts of Malibu above the beach are also candidates, along with parts of Palos Verdes. I'll bet there's some ultra-warm spots in San Diego, too.

Thanks sounds like a frost free micro climate regardless of what hits cali. 

Could you grow dragonfruit cherimoyas coffe beans coconut palms and papayas without a problem?

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1 hour ago, veeman55 said:

Thanks sounds like a frost free micro climate regardless of what hits cali. 

Could you grow dragonfruit cherimoyas coffe beans coconut palms and papayas without a problem?

You can grow those in surprising places, though frost-free ridgetops would be a plus. Some papaya varieties are surprisingly cold-tolerant.

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Let's keep our forum fun and friendly.

Any data in this post is provided 'as is' and in no event shall I be liable for any damages, including, without limitation, damages resulting from accuracy or lack thereof, insult, or lost profits or revenue, claims by third parties or for other similar costs, or any special, incidental, or consequential damages arising out of my opinion or the use of this data. The accuracy or reliability of the data is not guaranteed or warranted in any way and I disclaim liability of any kind whatsoever, including, without limitation, liability for quality, performance, merchantability and fitness for a particular purpose arising out of the use, or inability to use my data. Other terms may apply.

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12 hours ago, veeman55 said:

Thanks sounds like a frost free micro climate regardless of what hits cali. 

Could you grow dragonfruit cherimoyas coffe beans coconut palms and papayas without a problem?

When I saw pictures of mature bottle palms in California, that's when I delved into researching this.

 

5 year high 42.2C/108F (07/06/2018)--5 year low 4.6C/40.3F (1/19/2023)--Lowest recent/current winter: 4.6C/40.3F (1/19/2023)

 

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12 hours ago, veeman55 said:

Thanks sounds like a frost free micro climate regardless of what hits cali. 

Could you grow dragonfruit cherimoyas coffe beans coconut palms and papayas without a problem?

When I saw pictures of mature bottle palms in California, that's when I delved into researching this.

Bananas, coffee, etc etc. Oh, yes. And contrary to popular opinion, Cocos nucifera as well.

Edited by GottmitAlex

5 year high 42.2C/108F (07/06/2018)--5 year low 4.6C/40.3F (1/19/2023)--Lowest recent/current winter: 4.6C/40.3F (1/19/2023)

 

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13 hours ago, veeman55 said:

Thanks sounds like a frost free micro climate regardless of what hits cali. 

Could you grow dragonfruit cherimoyas coffe beans coconut palms and papayas without a problem?

 

  • Upvote 1

5 year high 42.2C/108F (07/06/2018)--5 year low 4.6C/40.3F (1/19/2023)--Lowest recent/current winter: 4.6C/40.3F (1/19/2023)

 

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Be careful about USDA hardiness zones, they only get a small slice of the climate!

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Let's keep our forum fun and friendly.

Any data in this post is provided 'as is' and in no event shall I be liable for any damages, including, without limitation, damages resulting from accuracy or lack thereof, insult, or lost profits or revenue, claims by third parties or for other similar costs, or any special, incidental, or consequential damages arising out of my opinion or the use of this data. The accuracy or reliability of the data is not guaranteed or warranted in any way and I disclaim liability of any kind whatsoever, including, without limitation, liability for quality, performance, merchantability and fitness for a particular purpose arising out of the use, or inability to use my data. Other terms may apply.

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13 hours ago, GottmitAlex said:

When I saw pictures of mature bottle palms in California, that's when I delved into researching this.

Bananas, coffee, etc etc. Oh, yes. And contrary to popular opinion, Cocos nucifera as well.

Im also enomored with dragon fruits esp the yellow ones

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11 hours ago, DoomsDave said:

Be careful about USDA hardiness zones, they only get a small slice of the climate!

As someone (I've forgotten who) famously said, your refrigerator is Zone 10.

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On 7/18/2018, 9:39:37, DoomsDave said:

The very warmest spots are areas along ridgetops, with cold-air drainage.

El Sereno, in Los Angeles, where I lived from 1998 to 2002, is one. The difference between a spot like that, and immediately adjacent colder areas can be very dramatic, even for a casual observer. For example, I'll never forget that morning when there was glistening ice on roofs of houses below me, while I was about 44 F. King palms in the valley froze; no harm to my much more tender A. tuckeri above.

The Hollywood Hills, Bel Air, and the like are other likely 11s. Parts of Malibu above the beach are also candidates, along with parts of Palos Verdes. I'll bet there's some ultra-warm spots in San Diego, too.

I remember when you used to post photos when you lived there, and you noted the elevation (cold air drainage) advantage. I seem to remember your yard sloped, and you could see the land/houses down below you.

That is exactly the case where I live just a mere 1 mile (as the crow flies) from the town of Lake Placid. I've posted numerous time in numerous threads the advantage of elevation (and drop off around it) here at Palmtalk. Just using my car thermometer (while my wife was driving and reporting back to me on her cell phone while I was at home) how she would leave our driveway, car thermometer reading 31 degrees, then drive up he long hill to town, and when she got to the top of the hill the car thermometer read 39 degrees! This was no fluke; we did this many times on many different cold radiational cooling mornings, and would always get the same differential kind of temperature readings.

I bought my place in February of 1998, and moved in to our newly built house in August 1998. My first bad freeze was on January 5, 2001. Virtually all my non native palms, bananas, hibiscus, bougainvillea, etc., were frozen severely, some down to the roots. My ponytail palm out in the yard was mush. I decided to drive up in town to inspect the damage there. Boy, was I totally surprised. As I left my subdivision and got on the ascending road up into town, I noticed the higher I got in elevation the less plant damage I saw. By the time I got up in town there was no damage at all! The tall trunked traveler's palm (zone 10a plant) in town wasn't hurt at all, yet my white bird of paradise (zone 9b plant) was toast!

Many, many years ago I thought of buying a plot of land on higher ground (with good air drainage around it), building another house and palm garden and selling my this place,  but the wife said no, we aren't going anywhere. In my neck of the woods, if you want to enjoy a zone 10a climate, you had better be on high ground or next to a large lake. I wish I knew then (when I bought land and had a home built) what I know now. Like they say, hindsight is 20/20.

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Mad about palms

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3 hours ago, Walt said:

I remember when you used to post photos when you lived there, and you noted the elevation (cold air drainage) advantage. I seem to remember your yard sloped, and you could see the land/houses down below you.

That is exactly the case where I live just a mere 1 mile (as the crow flies) from the town of Lake Placid. I've posted numerous time in numerous threads the advantage of elevation (and drop off around it) here at Palmtalk. Just using my car thermometer (while my wife was driving and reporting back to me on her cell phone while I was at home) how she would leave our driveway, car thermometer reading 31 degrees, then drive up he long hill to town, and when she got to the top of the hill the car thermometer read 39 degrees! This was no fluke; we did this many times on many different cold radiational cooling mornings, and would always get the same differential kind of temperature readings.

I bought my place in February of 1998, and moved in to our newly built house in August 1998. My first bad freeze was on January 5, 2001. Virtually all my non native palms, bananas, hibiscus, bougainvillea, etc., were frozen severely, some down to the roots. My ponytail palm out in the yard was mush. I decided to drive up in town to inspect the damage there. Boy, was I totally surprised. As I left my subdivision and got on the ascending road up into town, I noticed the higher I got in elevation the less plant damage I saw. By the time I got up in town there was no damage at all! The tall trunked traveler's palm (zone 10a plant) in town wasn't hurt at all, yet my white bird of paradise (zone 9b plant) was toast!

Many, many years ago I thought of buying a plot of land on higher ground (with good air drainage around it), building another house and palm garden and selling my this place,  but the wife said no, we aren't going anywhere. In my neck of the woods, if you want to enjoy a zone 10a climate, you had better be on high ground or next to a large lake. I wish I knew then (when I bought land and had a home built) what I know now. Like they say, hindsight is 20/20.

 

We have a whole mess of areas like that in the DMV! On my ride home Ill see similar temps at work and home but about midway in West Friendship its a solid zone drop from work and home and is starkdly colder. It is usually between 5-15 degrees lower depending on the weather we are having. On rare occasions in the summer it will hold onto the heat for a slight bit btu has never been more than 2-4 degrees warmer and that is extremely rare. My wifes parents have a holler within 3miles of their subdivision thats the same. On heat waves we used to swim in that creek as not only is it colder but shaded as its all understory.

 

Pretty neat how microclimates can be so close yet have such stark differences in weather!

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LOWS 16/17 12F, 17/18 3F, 18/19 7F, 19/20 20F

Palms growing in my garden: Trachycarpus Fortunei, Chamaerops Humilis, Chamaerops Humilis var. Cerifera, Rhapidophyllum Hystrix, Sabal Palmetto 

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6 hours ago, Walt said:

I remember when you used to post photos when you lived there, and you noted the elevation (cold air drainage) advantage. I seem to remember your yard sloped, and you could see the land/houses down below you.

That is exactly the case where I live just a mere 1 mile (as the crow flies) from the town of Lake Placid. I've posted numerous time in numerous threads the advantage of elevation (and drop off around it) here at Palmtalk. Just using my car thermometer (while my wife was driving and reporting back to me on her cell phone while I was at home) how she would leave our driveway, car thermometer reading 31 degrees, then drive up he long hill to town, and when she got to the top of the hill the car thermometer read 39 degrees! This was no fluke; we did this many times on many different cold radiational cooling mornings, and would always get the same differential kind of temperature readings.

I bought my place in February of 1998, and moved in to our newly built house in August 1998. My first bad freeze was on January 5, 2001. Virtually all my non native palms, bananas, hibiscus, bougainvillea, etc., were frozen severely, some down to the roots. My ponytail palm out in the yard was mush. I decided to drive up in town to inspect the damage there. Boy, was I totally surprised. As I left my subdivision and got on the ascending road up into town, I noticed the higher I got in elevation the less plant damage I saw. By the time I got up in town there was no damage at all! The tall trunked traveler's palm (zone 10a plant) in town wasn't hurt at all, yet my white bird of paradise (zone 9b plant) was toast!

Many, many years ago I thought of buying a plot of land on higher ground (with good air drainage around it), building another house and palm garden and selling my this place,  but the wife said no, we aren't going anywhere. In my neck of the woods, if you want to enjoy a zone 10a climate, you had better be on high ground or next to a large lake. I wish I knew then (when I bought land and had a home built) what I know now. Like they say, hindsight is 20/20.

How would you go about scoping out the ideal microclimate of a location?

Pick the coldest day/night and drive around measuring air temperature?

Whats the maximum altitude microclimates work at?

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18 hours ago, veeman55 said:

How would you go about scoping out the ideal microclimate of a location?

Pick the coldest day/night and drive around measuring air temperature?

Whats the maximum altitude microclimates work at?

We are using the term microclimate in an oxymoron way, I believe. No offense to anyone, but when we are describing a larger area (say than a small area in someone's back yard) like an entire town, neighborhood, etc., I think the term mesoclimate is probably more appropriate for at least the areas I'm referring to, like the town of Lake Placid, or a lakefront community, where the nighttime temperature lows are definitely influenced markedly (temperatures are much higher than the surrounding areas outside the community and farther away from the thermal benefit of the lake). See this link: http://www.wine-blog.org/index.php/2014/04/23/understanding-macroclimate-microclimate-mesoclimate-canopy-climates/

So, with respect to your question, I would do what you said (drive around on the coldest mornings at sun up, measuring the temperatures). Plus, I would observe all the flora (in my case, tropical plants and palms), and also note the size and age of them. In my environs, the warmest areas always have species of palms (like coconuts, royals, solitaire, etc.) growing where the colder areas do not. Or, the warmest areas have more tropical shurbs (that while they may grow in the colder areas) that are much larger in size because they rarely get frozen back. Where you live, judging flora may be much harder. I say this as I live in a transitional area of Florida, neither north or south, but the warmest areas (high ground and around lakes) much more reflect those of south Florida.

The Lake Wales Ridge (on the higher elevations of it where there is good cold air drainage) is definitely warmer at night during the winter months (see below graphic and satellite photo) than areas down off the ridge. This is because of warm air inversion. In my area, the ridge is only about 150-160 feet above sea level, but this is plenty to take advantage of warmer air that rises. But this warmer air layer only extends up so far before it starts to get cold again.  I don't know what that height is, but it seems I've seen graphs online before.

The first time I ever took note of temperature difference was shortly after my wife and I moved here almost 21 years ago. We were up in town having dinner at a local restaurant at night. We got in the car to go home and I noted the thermometer temperature. As we started down the long hill I noticed the air temperature was dropping the farther down the hill we went until we got to our house.

Lake Wales RIdge graphis.png

Lake Wales Ridge satellite photo.png

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Mad about palms

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22 hours ago, mdsonofthesouth said:

 

We have a whole mess of areas like that in the DMV! On my ride home Ill see similar temps at work and home but about midway in West Friendship its a solid zone drop from work and home and is starkdly colder. It is usually between 5-15 degrees lower depending on the weather we are having. On rare occasions in the summer it will hold onto the heat for a slight bit btu has never been more than 2-4 degrees warmer and that is extremely rare. My wifes parents have a holler within 3miles of their subdivision thats the same. On heat waves we used to swim in that creek as not only is it colder but shaded as its all understory.

 

Pretty neat how microclimates can be so close yet have such stark differences in weather!

I used to drive to my aunt's and uncle's house in rural Loudon, County, Virginia, during the summer months at night. I had a convertible and I would put the top down. I would go up a hill and down a dale/holler.When I dropped down into the holler you could noticeably feel the temperature drop. This was long before car thermometers, or I could have measured the temperatures. 

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Mad about palms

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I'm in Palos Verdes Estates, about a few blocks from the Pacific. Been here for 5 years have never seen the temperature drop below 45. 

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Palos Verdes Estates - coastal Los Angeles - 33°45'N 118°24'W

On a cliff, 2 blocks from the Pacific Ocean. Zone 10b - Sunset zone 24

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4 hours ago, Panamajack said:

I'm in Palos Verdes Estates, about a few blocks from the Pacific. Been here for 5 years have never seen the temperature drop below 45. 

That sounds like a zone 12 @Panamajack even milder than San Diego

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5 hours ago, Panamajack said:

I'm in Palos Verdes Estates, about a few blocks from the Pacific. Been here for 5 years have never seen the temperature drop below 45. 

Seeing y'alls geography I am not surprised! Jutting out into the Pacific with water north west and south in an already mild climate. I see a similar freak weather in Virginia beach area around first landing where there is just so much water around to help regulate the temperature.

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LOWS 16/17 12F, 17/18 3F, 18/19 7F, 19/20 20F

Palms growing in my garden: Trachycarpus Fortunei, Chamaerops Humilis, Chamaerops Humilis var. Cerifera, Rhapidophyllum Hystrix, Sabal Palmetto 

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Off-Topic but that detailed visual that Walt posted on the Lake Wales Ridge is fascinating!

What you look for is what is looking

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Anyone know where to find historical Malibu or a pepperdine weather station data? Halfway up those hills have to be the highest hardiness zone outside of Extreme south florida. 

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On 8/11/2018, 10:52:07, TexasColdHardyPalms said:

Anyone know where to find historical Malibu or a pepperdine weather station data? Halfway up those hills have to be the highest hardiness zone outside of Extreme south florida. 

Would love to see whats growing up those Malibu hills

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 8/14/2018, 7:59:02, TexasColdHardyPalms said:

I'm convinced malibu is a solid zone 11a at least now and there are most likely 11b areas up in those hills. 

http://www.intellicast.com/Local/History.aspx?month=12

Malibu's outskirts seems to pop up often as California's mildest winters. Curious why is that. San Diego Huntington and palo altos seems to have similar but lesser fame.

The 3 places probably are damper due to proximity to the coast

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On 8/10/2018, 5:45:56, Panamajack said:

I'm in Palos Verdes Estates, about a few blocks from the Pacific. Been here for 5 years have never seen the temperature drop below 45. 

The absolute lowest temps in key west i beleive were in the mid to low 40s

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Historically all time low of 33 sounds like solid zone 11 area. Crazy think it has never hit freezing at this weather station. 

Screenshot_20180902-120619_Chrome.jpg

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2 hours ago, TexasColdHardyPalms said:

Miami and key west data

Screenshot_20180902-121324_Chrome.jpg

Screenshot_20180902-121251_Chrome.jpg

Striking difference between Malibu and Miami. 10F difference between their average lows across the board.

Still. Nice to know it never gets below 33F in Malibu.

5 year high 42.2C/108F (07/06/2018)--5 year low 4.6C/40.3F (1/19/2023)--Lowest recent/current winter: 4.6C/40.3F (1/19/2023)

 

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10 hours ago, TexasColdHardyPalms said:

Malibu winter record lows are lower than Key West but several degrees higher than Miami. 

Sorry to nitpick, but I think it would be more fair to compare Malibu to Miami Beach (record low of 32F). Malibu is still exceptionally mild nonetheless. 

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Jonathan

Katy, TX (Zone 9a)

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1 hour ago, Xenon said:

Sorry to nitpick, but I think it would be more fair to compare Malibu to Miami Beach (record low of 32F). Malibu is still exceptionally mild nonetheless. 

Yes. However, for all intents and purposes, Miami excels Malibu climate wise. 

5 year high 42.2C/108F (07/06/2018)--5 year low 4.6C/40.3F (1/19/2023)--Lowest recent/current winter: 4.6C/40.3F (1/19/2023)

 

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@GottmitAlex Superior climate perhaps for growing tropical plants, but not humans. I would personally take Malibu every time. As acclimated to the brutal heat as I am, I'd be willing to bet that I could live the rest of my life without producing another bead of sweat and certainly without another mosquito bite.

@Xenon I wasn't able to find Miami beach on that website...

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5 hours ago, TexasColdHardyPalms said:

@GottmitAlex Superior climate perhaps for growing tropical plants, but not humans. I would personally take Malibu every time. As acclimated to the brutal heat as I am, I'd be willing to bet that I could live the rest of my life without producing another bead of sweat and certainly without another mosquito bite.

There is something to be said about being able to garden without sweat ponding up in your sunglasses and slapping your legs every 5 minutes to keep the mosquitoes away... even if it means not being able to grow the hallowed coconut palm.

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Lakeland, FL

USDA Zone 1990: 9a  2012: 9b  2023: 10a | Sunset Zone: 26 | Record Low: 20F/-6.67C (Jan. 1985, Dec.1962) | Record Low USDA Zone: 9a

30-Year Avg. Low: 30F | 30-year Min: 24F

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5 hours ago, TexasColdHardyPalms said:

@GottmitAlex Superior climate perhaps for growing tropical plants, but not humans. I would personally take Malibu every time. As acclimated to the brutal heat as I am, I'd be willing to bet that I could live the rest of my life without producing another bead of sweat and certainly without another mosquito bite.

@Xenon I wasn't able to find Miami beach on that website...

If its cool mild at Malibu beach what would it be like higher up Malibu's hills? 40s absolute minimum? Wouldnt it be also warmer during the day away from the cool ocean breezes?

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I once read somewhere on the net that Catalina Island was rated USDA zone 11. This was long ago when I didn't fully understand the USDA ratings. I say that as I know a coconut palm can be grown long term in the upper end of Florida zone 9b (as long as the low never dropped  below 28-29 degrees F for just a very short while, like at sunrise, then a warm up -- and then only once, maybe twice each winter). Yet, coconuts won't last long in Catalina's zone 11. But I came to realize the ultimate low is just but one factor, and that if a higher zone rating didn't have adequate wintertime heat (daytime highs), along with a drier period (like Florida's zone 9b which has little winter rain), the absolute higher lows at Catalina are academic. 

I see at the below website, they recorded a low of 37 degrees at Avalon, Catalina Island. I can say this, if my lowest low was only 37 degrees, my property would be overflowing in coconut palms, as I do have adequate wintertime daytime heating.

http://www.climatespy.com/climate/summary/united-states/california/avalon

 

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Mad about palms

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40 minutes ago, Walt said:

I once read somewhere on the net that Catalina Island was rated USDA zone 11. This was long ago when I didn't fully understand the USDA ratings. I say that as I know a coconut palm can be grown long term in the upper end of Florida zone 9b (as long as the low never dropped  below 28-29 degrees F for just a very short while, like at sunrise, then a warm up -- and then only once, maybe twice each winter). Yet, coconuts won't last long in Catalina's zone 11. But I came to realize the ultimate low is just but one factor, and that if a higher zone rating didn't have adequate wintertime heat (daytime highs), along with a drier period (like Florida's zone 9b which has little winter rain), the absolute higher lows at Catalina are academic. 

I see at the below website, they recorded a low of 37 degrees at Avalon, Catalina Island. I can say this, if my lowest low was only 37 degrees, my property would be overflowing in coconut palms, as I do have adequate wintertime daytime heating.

http://www.climatespy.com/climate/summary/united-states/california/avalon

 

The cold rain in a winter and dampness kills the coconut tree more than the odd cold dry night around freezing

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