Chamaerops cerifera in habitat in Morocco

[GMann]

Last month I took a trip to Morocco and saw Chamaerops cerifera and Phoenix dactylifera growing in their natural habitats in the Atlas Mountains.

Most of the Silver Chamaerops one sees in habitat is very low ground cover, but occasionally, on steep slopes or in stream beds you can see some with several feet of trunk. They tend to be most common at elevations between 4,000-5,000 feet.

Here's a video:

 

Edited June 5, 2018 by GMann

[Grasswing]

I always love seeing palms in habitat. Thank you for sharing such unique views! Definitely going to check your other videos out.

Regards,

Ondra

[Phoenikakias]

So it was you, who made that video! Nice work. But I have to disagree with you on your conclusion that soil and location causes a variation in the appearance of cerifera. That is of course to some extent correct but not entirely. There is definitely also a wide genetic vaiation, hence the controversial reports about its growth rate, cold and wet hardiness.

[GMann]

6 minutes ago, Phoenikakias said:

But I have to disagree with you on your conclusion that soil and location causes a variation in the appearance of cerifera. That is of course to some extent correct but not entirely. There is definitely also a wide genetic vaiation, hence the controversial reports about its growth rate, cold and wet hardiness.

It was just my observation. I was thinking that the steep slopes may prevent suckering because there is less available soil in a horizontal direction for the suckers to spread out (but still plenty of soil in a vertical direction), which then causes them to concentrate growth in a single stem and grow taller.

And the dry stream bed observation is probably just because of better water sources.

[Rose]

Wow loved your video, the music is hypnotic and fabulously retro. Love these little palms I have in large pots doing very well. Can't say if it's genetic variation or not but they love the tropics! Very slow growers (for me) so not to be rushed with ferts or they rot. From what I saw when I was in Morocco and here in this video environmental conditions seem to play a part in size, particularly fire! It is interesting anyway because on a hillside covered in stemless Chamaerops  (like on Sardinia too) you very often rarely see a single trunking specimens unless it's protected in some way or other or in deeper soil, in other areas and irrigated gardens predominately trunking. Sure the soil depth plays a part as it can be very very shallow to almost non existent, then deep in pockets in parts or areas used for agriculture. I know anyway where I would prefer my seed to be collected, that's for sure.

[GMann]

Looking back at the video, one thing I tried to capture but kind of failed was that it was spring and there were a lot of flowers in bloom, mainly purple and yellow. Here are some pictures.

 

 

 

[Cikas]

Wow beautiful!!!

[5150cycad]

Love the video. I have a couple of these palms In my garden. So cool to see them in their native habitat. Appears they are thriving too. 

[GMann]

This was one of the tallest ones I saw and it was flowering:

 

 

 

 

Edited June 7, 2018 by GMann

[Darold Petty]

Why are the older leaf blades absent, yet the complete petiole is present ?  Perhaps this is browsing by goats ?  Perhaps exploited by local humans for a fiber use ?

[GMann]

I don't know. But I do know they had an unusually cold winter this year. I saw pictures of the Sahara covered in snow. Maybe that has something to do with it.

[GMann]

Oh I thought you were asking why the recent leaf blades are missing, but there is still a skirt of the really oldest ones hanging on.

[GMann]

The petioles have spikes, so if goats are eating the leaves then they probably stop at the petiole. There were goats in the area, and the Chamaerops are the principle ground cover, so they probably eat them.

[Pal Meir]

38 minutes ago, GMann said:

I don't know. But I do know they had an unusually cold winter this year. I saw pictures of the Sahara covered in snow. Maybe that has something to do with it.

I think you are right, it looks like damage caused by heavy wet snow. I had similar problems with my Chamaerops here in Germany after a snow fall with wet snow on a November day in 2005.

[Kris]

Thanks for those lovely visuals..

[Nakheel1412]

3 hours ago, Darold Petty said:

Why are the older leaf blades absent, yet the complete petiole is present ?  Perhaps this is browsing by goats ?  Perhaps exploited by local humans for a fiber use ?

 

3 hours ago, GMann said:

I don't know. But I do know they had an unusually cold winter this year. I saw pictures of the Sahara covered in snow. Maybe that has something to do with it.

 

2 hours ago, Pal Meir said:

I think you are right, it looks like damage caused by heavy wet snow. I had similar problems with my Chamaerops here in Germany after a snow fall with wet snow on a November day in 2005.

Actually, the leaves of Chamaerops are harvested by humans ^^

Sfenj/Shfenj (a very old arabo-andalusian doughnut) is sold after being tied together with segments of this species' leaves :

Doum palms (that's the Moroccan name given to the regular Chamaerops humilis and the cerifera kind) are so numerous (we litteraly have forests of this palm) that collecting leaves does not endanger this species in the slightest ;

I have never seen goats climb Chamaerops trees, maybe too hazardous for them?
Still that's a possibility, I've just never seen one do it ;

To find large trunking specimens "in the wild", you need to look for a place where they are far from men and goats, like these ones that grow up to 4 meters high in a cemetery near Marrakech :


(Photo credit : Nick Macer, http://www.panglobalplants.com/2006/11/10/morocco-october-2006/ )

P.S. If you come to Morocco, make sure you have some Sfenj, both the classic and the sugary one, when served "fresh out the oven", it is simply DELICIOUS !
With sugar :


@GMann : Thanks again for the very nice pictures !

Edited June 7, 2018 by Nakheel1412

[Darold Petty]

Nakheel 1412, Thank you very much for the explanation !

[Howeadypsis]

Fantastic video, and pics

[GMann]

23 hours ago, Nakheel1412 said:

To find large trunking specimens "in the wild", you need to look for a place where they are far from men and goats, like these ones that grow up to 4 meters high in a cemetery near Marrakech :


(Photo credit : Nick Macer, http://www.panglobalplants.com/2006/11/10/morocco-october-2006/ )

I read that article by Nick Macer too when I as planning my trip. I was thinking of trying to find that cemetery in Asni. But since I could not locate it on Google Earth, and I don't have enough knowledge of Arabic to ask the locals, I figured there was no real chance I would be able to find it if I visited the village.

Nick suggested in that article that the reason most of the Chamaerops are so short is that they are kept short by all the goats grazing on them:

 

Quote

...we found the local cemetery was populated by a superb colony of the palm, protected from grazing and interference by high walls and locked gates. Whilst most of the Chamaerops we were to see were usually kept virtually trunkless by animals and humans, these noble specimens were growing as nature intended on trunks up to about 4m high; a fascinating insight into how the excessively overgrazed hills might look without the goats.

 

If this is true then presumably in the past, when the population was lower and there were less goats, we would have seen whole mountains covered in 4 meter high Chamaerops "as nature intended". But I am not entirely sure I buy this, I saw places where there was low Chamaerops ground cover as far as the eye could see. It is hard to believe there are enough goats that are keeping all of those miles and miles of Chamaerops short.

The other human use of the Chamaerops in Morocco is that they make hats and bags out of them right?

Edited June 8, 2018 by GMann

[Nakheel1412]

1 hour ago, GMann said:

I read that article by Nick Macer too when I as planning my trip. I was thinking of trying to find that cemetery in Asni. But since I could not locate it on Google Earth, and I don't have enough knowledge of Arabic to ask the locals, I figured there was no real chance I would be able to find it if I visited the village.

Nick suggested in that article that the reason most of the Chamaerops are so short is that they are kept short by all the goats grazing on them:

 

 

If this is true then presumably in the past, when the population was lower and there were less goats, we would have seen whole mountains covered in 4 meter high Chamaerops "as nature intended". But I am not entirely sure I buy this, I saw places where there was low Chamaerops ground cover as far as the eye could see. It is hard to believe there are enough goats that are keeping all of those miles and miles of Chamaerops short.

The other human use of the Chamaerops in Morocco is that they make hats and bags out of them right?

My personal theory is that goats/leaf harvest have nothing to do with the relative absence of large cerifera specimens in the wild ;

Chamaerops humilis var cerifera is know to be extremely slow-growing unless it is given LARGE amounts of water ;
The thing is, the natural habitat of this cerifera variety is particularly dry with very low rainfall during growth season (sping/summer/fall) + very "steep" terrain, which limits A LOT the available water ;
Therefore, my guess is that in the wild, most specimens die of old age before reaching a very large size ;
(Thankfully, they flower very early on, which facilitates propagation)

Then what happened to the minority that did grow big? In my opinion, they were simply dug up in order to be sold in cities ;
We can find large ones in nurseries at low prices (considering their age and size), which seems to validate this theory ;

I don't know if leaf harvest kills them (those who harvest might leave some fronds behind to let the palm regrow a crown?), yet I'm pretty sure drought might be the cause of that very slow growth ;
When it comes to what people exactly do with cerifera leaves, I honestly have no exact idea, locals probably know better

[GMann]

On ‎6‎/‎8‎/‎2018‎ ‎4‎:‎36‎:‎34‎, Nakheel1412 said:

My personal theory is that goats/leaf harvest have nothing to do with the relative absence of large cerifera specimens in the wild ;

Chamaerops humilis var cerifera is know to be extremely slow-growing unless it is given LARGE amounts of water ;
The thing is, the natural habitat of this cerifera variety is particularly dry with very low rainfall during growth season (sping/summer/fall) + very "steep" terrain, which limits A LOT the available water ;
Therefore, my guess is that in the wild, most specimens die of old age before reaching a very large size ;

Ok that makes some sense. But it doesn't explain why those specimens in the walled cemetery grew so big. Unless perhaps there is simply an underground stream right beneath the cemetery and the presence of the walls is just a coincidence that has nothing to do with their size.

Or maybe there is a caretaker at the cemetery that is giving them extra water (by the color of the grass in those pics this seems doubtful)?

It may be a combination of all these factors.