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mthteh1916

Galveston Queen Palm Carnage

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mthteh1916

Supposedly only two out of twelve showing any green signs. Will these come back you think? Such a shame. Coldest since 1989.

7ELV4vX.jpg

 

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Ben in Norcal

How cold did it get?  I'm shocked it got cold enough there to even damage a queen.

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Laaz

Talked to my buddy downtown here in Charleston. Both his queens survived. I'm going to stop by his place this Thurs.

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Matthew92

Even if the leaves start growing back, have to still watch out for trunk rot. I've seen this happen multiple times in my area. This one has just been removed.

 IMG_0572.thumb.JPG.2d592a2dd91940e2becf6

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mthteh1916
8 hours ago, Ben in Norcal said:

How cold did it get?  I'm shocked it got cold enough there to even damage a queen.

A low of 25F followed by a high of 36F with ice and snow.

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mthteh1916
5 hours ago, Opal92 said:

Even if the leaves start growing back, have to still watch out for trunk rot. I've seen this happen multiple times in my area. This one has just been removed.

 IMG_0572.thumb.JPG.2d592a2dd91940e2becf6

Wow such a shame. Queens are pretty much gone on the northern Gulf Coast now as the Southeast gets colder winters since 2010. No doubt, winters there getting more extreme it seems and trend to get worse as arctic continues to warm and polar vortex gets weaker and weaker causing a much wavier jet stream. sooner or later some really bad temps are coming it seems. https://www.forbes.com/sites/trevornace/2018/02/20/defying-climate-change-southeast-u-s-is-getting-colder-instead-of-warmer-via-polar-vortex/#3652c06af84c

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Ben in Norcal
8 minutes ago, mthteh1916 said:

A low of 25F followed by a high of 36F with ice and snow.

Brutal!

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PalmTreeDude

The most ripped off part of the world climatically, the Southeast US! Lets have scorching hot summers and throw in a few ridged winter days to kill off all of the tropicals. 

Edited by PalmTreeDude
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Estlander
2 hours ago, mthteh1916 said:

A low of 25F followed by a high of 36F with ice and snow.

That's not bad at all. Don't understand how these temps. could have caused all that damage to Queens. The same cloud that brought all that icy rain to Texas moved over my area as well between 4-6AM. Recorded a low of 27F that night. Didn't get above freezing until around 12pm the next morning.

The next night was colder, a low of 23.9F. My young Queen planted as a 3 gallon plant just 3 months prior had very minimal damage. Had a towel around the trunk, but the fronds were too difficult to cover up, so left those exposed. Wanted to protect the growing point foremost. Went outside around 5AM to check on things and the Queen's fronds were covered in icicles. There was only slight damage on some of the tips of an emerging spear from the ice that had landed in the crown.

The pics below are of another Queen in my neighbor's yard that came through just fine as well. It's been in ground for 11 years at least. The blurry pic is from Google Maps dated Nov. 2007 showing it as a young palm, and the second pic I took right after the cold. Other Queens in the area are fine too with damage just on the older fronds.

 

 

67239A4A-3ADE-4EE9-87DF-888D8FDB0A98.jpeg

95943251-9FA8-47C4-B325-9D17E62E3CAB.png

Edited by Estlander
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mthteh1916
10 hours ago, PalmTreeDude said:

The most ripped off part of the world climatically, the Southeast US! Lets have scorching hot summers and throw in a few ridged winter days to kill off all of the tropicals. 

I know. I have said this before. Every winter in the SE is a crapshoot when it comes to just how bad or cold will it get. People in other subtropical climes with mountains or seas to protect them never seem to worry as their record lows are no where near as cold as the SE. I just saw a map of the large commercial citrus growing areas of the world. China leads, and they grow oranges inland at the latitude of Charleston. Know why, they are cold, but never get extreme cold due to the huge Siberian HIgh that protects them from dangerous low pressure systems in winter. The Canadian High is very weak in comparison and does not to protect the US from a real wavy jetstream with the low pressure systems coming in from the Pacific. We got screwed is the bottom line. No mountains, no ocean in place of ice box Canada.

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mthteh1916
8 hours ago, Estlander said:

That's not bad at all. Don't understand how these temps. could have caused all that damage to Queens. The same cloud that brought all that icy rain to Texas moved over my area as well between 4-6AM. Recorded a low of 27F that night. Didn't get above freezing until around 12pm the next morning.

The next night was colder, a low of 23.9F. My young Queen planted as a 3 gallon plant just 3 months prior had very minimal damage. Had a towel around the trunk, but the fronds were too difficult to cover up, so left those exposed. Wanted to protect the growing point foremost. Went outside around 5AM to check on things and the Queen's fronds were covered in icicles. There was only slight damage on some of the tips of an emerging spear from the ice that had landed in the crown.

The pics below are of another Queen in my neighbor's yard that came through just fine as well. It's been in ground for 11 years at least. The blurry pic is from Google Maps dated Nov. 2007 showing it as a young palm, and the second pic I took right after the cold. Other Queens in the area are fine too with damage just on the older fronds.

 

 

67239A4A-3ADE-4EE9-87DF-888D8FDB0A98.jpeg

95943251-9FA8-47C4-B325-9D17E62E3CAB.png

All I know is what was posted on the other forum with that pic. Galveston has dead royal palms also now at Moody Gardens. Maybe the palms weren't used to it, or their sourced region is a different strain than what you have. I have heard Uruguay Queens are hardier than Brazil Queens. Not sure. They should just replant as they are cheap and grow fast and hopefully this won't happen for years, but one just never knows.

 

I don't know how anyone in the eastern US has not noticed just how bad things have gotten since 2010 compared to 1990 to 2009. It seems every other winter here is brutal now. 2010,2011,2014,2018 and who knows what is in store next winter. In the 80's each winter seemed to get worse than the last and then 85 was the killer. Thought it was done and then bam December 1989 was the worst. I was a weather geek then and I remember New Orleans hitting 11F and three days with highs below freezing. Think about that compared to now, and ask yourself could that happen again, and if so what happens to everything growing in the SE now.

Edited by mthteh1916
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Estlander
2 hours ago, mthteh1916 said:

It seems every other winter here is brutal now. 2010,2011,2014,2018 and who knows what is in store next winter. In the 80's each winter seemed to get worse than the last and then 85 was the killer. Thought it was done and then bam December 1989 was the worst. I was a weather geek then and I remember New Orleans hitting 11F and three days with highs below freezing. Think about that compared to now, and ask yourself could that happen again, and if so what happens to everything growing in the SE now.

Yes, the record lows coming back scares the heck out of me. Could be next winter, you never know.  

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RedRabbit

Thanks for sharing the pic, I'm shocked to see that in Galveston. I thought it was boardline 10a???

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Collectorpalms

Howdy! Galvestons 30 year average is zone 9b with mostly no freezing winters. Starting 2020 the 30 year average will go to zone 10 as the 1980s will no longer be counted.

I was the one that took those pictures of the Queens and Visited Moody Gardens. The weather data might be a little off at Galveston Airport. The automated weather instruments occasionally need to be calibrated. I think its reads about 1-2 degree too warm ( as it is currently still recording record 5th warmest May while Houston its  8th warmest). Nevertheless, along the Seawall it was 22.8F at the beach South Side. These queens were on the Northside where it was also at least 22-23. Also it barely got above freezing for a consecutive 45 hours with freezing precip on Galveston.

Yes, some queens are looking dead next to Rather Healthy Looking Queens on the Island. It isn't uniform! Pygmy date palms looked all but dead except at Moody Gardens, southside of buildings.

Meanwhile at Moody Gardens, All the Royals Right next to the Massive Main building, protected from the North wind are alive. All but one are alive to the southside of the Hotel in a very protected spot as well. One is alive but leaking fluid. Dead one furthest to the right closest to parking garage by itself, never saw that one before as it is so well hidden. Wind could have funneled into the parking garage, or its too dark there to warm up.

There is a dead one walking toward the "Palm beach" by itself. Walking up toward the pool area for the Hotel, I saw three trunks of what looked liked Royal cut to the ground.  A Royal or so had been alive at the Pool, but I was distracted and did not notice them, or they were gone. The pool area is off limits so you have to peak to see the area.

Meanwhile, the whole city of houston went below 20, and between Houston and Galveston it was 20. ( Like Pearland, League City, office of national weather service). I only saw  to dead queens in the city. My guess is the healthiness established ones will make it again, but there was trunk damage to most outside 610 loop.

After this winter I have two queens alive that are 15-17 years old from 15 gallons, and 4 that are deader than a doornail, their crowns collapsed and need to be chained down. Thats out of 25 planted during the warm years of 2000-2010. My mules also mostly defoliated. I was at 15 degrees.

moodyroyal.jpg

queens2.jpg

trunkcuts.jpg

corner.jpg

image2.JPG

Edited by Collectorpalms
typos, clarification
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TexasColdHardyPalms

@Collectorpalms Did the one Triangle make it at Moody? One was 100% dead a few months ago when I was there.

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Collectorpalms

Here is picture. Looks amazing well. I am half convinced it was protected. lol The Dead Royal is about 50/100 feet away to the top right. Pretty sure that is a hybrid Mule in background right. They have several mules.

triangle.jpg

Edited by Collectorpalms

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Cikas
On 07. 05. 2018., mthteh1916 said:

All I know is what was posted on the other forum with that pic. Galveston has dead royal palms also now at Moody Gardens. Maybe the palms weren't used to it, or their sourced region is a different strain than what you have. I have heard Uruguay Queens are hardier than Brazil Queens. Not sure. They should just replant as they are cheap and grow fast and hopefully this won't happen for years, but one just never knows.

 

I don't know how anyone in the eastern US has not noticed just how bad things have gotten since 2010 compared to 1990 to 2009. It seems every other winter here is brutal now. 2010,2011,2014,2018 and who knows what is in store next winter. In the 80's each winter seemed to get worse than the last and then 85 was the killer. Thought it was done and then bam December 1989 was the worst. I was a weather geek then and I remember New Orleans hitting 11F and three days with highs below freezing. Think about that compared to now, and ask yourself could that happen again, and if so what happens to everything growing in the SE now.

Santa Catarina Queens are more cold hardy than regular Queens from tropical origin. They should use Santa Catarina ones in that area. 

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Laaz

Good luck finding the here in the states.

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Estlander
4 hours ago, Collectorpalms said:

 

image2.JPG

Was this taken in Galveston? Surely not!!! :0

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Collectorpalms

 That was from an early snow event in dec posted at the NWS. That was from Corpus Christi beach. Second picture is from My Yard, i cant get it to be upright picture

 

Snowfall_Map.png

image1.JPG

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Collectorpalms

image1 (1).JPGk

 

 

image1 (2).JPG

image2 (1).JPG

image3.PNG

Edited by Collectorpalms
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mthteh1916
On 5/13/2018, 4:40:48, Collectorpalms said:

image1 (1).JPGk

 

 

image1 (2).JPG

image2 (1).JPG

image3.PNG

Is Houston 9a or 8b?

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Collectorpalms

Houston is a warm zone 9a. Inside the inner loop 610 (Downtown Montrose, River Oaks, Rice Villiage) has an amazing urban heat island that allowed it to only fall below 25F one time ( this year) since 1990. Also Galveston Island, just south of Houston is 9b.

usdatexas.jpg

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mthteh1916
8 hours ago, mthteh1916 said:

Is Houston 9a or 8b?

Where are the pics above with the snow on the palms from? Is that your location?

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Collectorpalms

My yard are the first two pictures.

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Xenon

There are plenty of recovering queen palms all over the metro...even out west towards Katy. Vast majority of queens in the inner loop made it. Many pygmy dates in the area are alive too. 

I wonder how the foxtail and triangle palms in the neighborhoods around Moody are doing. Also curious about how all the tropicals fared at Moody...most of the foundation plants are pretty tender...tropical hibiscus, Schefflera, Calliandra, etc. They've also been pretty bold the last few years with the tropical tree (Ficus, Cassia, etc.) plantings toward the golf course area. 

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Xenon
On 5/15/2018, 6:37:03, mthteh1916 said:

Where are the pics above with the snow on the palms from? Is that your location?

Tom, 

Here are snow covered bouganvillea, royals and coconuts in Texas and right across the border in Matamoros. Everything more or less lived.

20171209_224107-COLLAGE.jpg.515abf7ec035

Edited by Xenon
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Collectorpalms

Was that the early December snow? It barely went below 32 for that event. There was an early January freeze followed by the mid January with sleet and freezing rain event that the temperatures were bad along the northern Gulf Coast.

Foxtails along Broadway were dead. One Triangle at Moody look burnt but okay. Anything not hardy to 25 was mostly killed to the ground unless up against a building. I cant say "what was what" as they were stumps with some sprouts. Did not go to the Gulf Course.

Palms up against buildings fared better than anything out in the open exposed to the wind. Maybe that is what your seeing in Houston area. Most everything along the 45 freeway from Conroe to Galveston that was exposed looked terrible, the worst I have seen compared to all other years.

Here was an Australian bottle tree at Moody, that more or less made it... There were mounds for other trees that appeared to be gone. There was a sign for a Bombax Tree but no tree.

 

bottletree.jpg

Edited by Collectorpalms
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Xenon
2 hours ago, Collectorpalms said:

Was that the early December snow? It barely went below 32 for that event. There was an early January freeze followed by the mid January with sleet and freezing rain event that the temperatures were bad along the northern Gulf Coast.

Foxtails along Broadway were dead. One Triangle at Moody look burnt but okay. Anything not hardy to 25 was mostly killed to the ground unless up against a building. I cant say "what was what" as they were stumps with some sprouts. Did not go to the Gulf Course.

Palms up against buildings fared better than anything out in the open exposed to the wind. Maybe that is what your seeing in Houston area. Most everything along the 45 freeway from Conroe to Galveston that was exposed looked terrible, the worst I have seen compared to all other years.

Here was an Australian bottle tree at Moody, that more or less made it... There were mounds for other trees that appeared to be gone. There was a sign for a Bombax Tree but no tree.

 

The pic is from January 2018; I think the low in Brownsville was 30F.

Hmm, maybe I'm just optimistic. There were some queens in the Museum District/Medical Center area that were half green (!) a few weeks ago. More defoliation (but alive) towards Montrose and Midtown. Also saw mamy queens with green in the Heights. Most queens near UH are also alive. Most of the Livistona decora along I-45 made it and many of them are flowering. I haven't been south of Hobby recently. 

Edited by Xenon

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mthteh1916
15 hours ago, Xenon said:

Tom, 

Here are snow covered bouganvillea, royals and coconuts in Texas and right across the border in Matamoros. Everything more or less lived.

20171209_224107-COLLAGE.jpg.515abf7ec035

They lived in both locations or only Matamoros?

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mthteh1916
20 hours ago, Collectorpalms said:

My yard are the first two pictures.

You have a very nice yard with a real nice collection of palms. Bet they look great in summer.

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Xenon
2 hours ago, mthteh1916 said:

They lived in both locations or only Matamoros?

Matamoros and Brownsville have the same climate.

Edited by Xenon

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Matthew92
On 5/17/2018, 7:26:22, Collectorpalms said:

Was that the early December snow? It barely went below 32 for that event. There was an early January freeze followed by the mid January with sleet and freezing rain event that the temperatures were bad along the northern Gulf Coast.

Foxtails along Broadway were dead. One Triangle at Moody look burnt but okay. Anything not hardy to 25 was mostly killed to the ground unless up against a building. I cant say "what was what" as they were stumps with some sprouts. Did not go to the Gulf Course.

Palms up against buildings fared better than anything out in the open exposed to the wind. Maybe that is what your seeing in Houston area. Most everything along the 45 freeway from Conroe to Galveston that was exposed looked terrible, the worst I have seen compared to all other years.

Here was an Australian bottle tree at Moody, that more or less made it... There were mounds for other trees that appeared to be gone. There was a sign for a Bombax Tree but no tree.

Do you remember which species the Australian Bottle tree was?

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NC_Palms
On 5/6/2018, 9:51:35, PalmTreeDude said:

The most ripped off part of the world climatically, the Southeast US! Lets have scorching hot summers and throw in a few ridged winter days to kill off all of the tropicals. 

Don"t forget about all the native plants that got damaged! 

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Collectorpalms
January temps, forgot location in southest texas

DY MAX MIN AVG DEP HDD CDD  WTR  SNW DPTH SPD SPD DIR MIN PSBL S-S WX    SPD DR
================================================================================

 1  40  27  34 -16  31   0 0.00  0.0    0  7.6 15 360   M    M   2        23 350
 2  33  27  30 -20  35   0    T    T    0  6.8 13 340   M    M  10        19 330
 3  47  21  34 -16  31   0 0.00  0.0    0  5.7 15 320   M    M   1        19 330
 4  54  20  37 -13  28   0 0.00  0.0    0  1.4  9  20   M    M   0        12 350
 5  59  32  46  -4  19   0 0.00  0.0    0  3.1 10 160   M    M   1        12 160
 6  65  28  47  -3  18   0 0.00  0.0    0  3.3 12 140   M    M   1 1      14 140
 7  66  38  52   2  13   0 0.37  0.0    0  5.7 17 150   M    M   5 13     21 140
 8  64  39  52   2  13   0    T    M    0  9.6 20 320   M    M   3 13     26 320
 9  51  35  43  -7  22   0 0.00  0.0    0  4.1 10 150   M    M   8 1      14 170
10  62  50  56   6   9   0 0.00  0.0    0  6.9 15 140   M    M  10 1      19 130
11  67  37  52   2  13   0 0.79  0.0    0  9.4 29 330   M    M   9 13     45 330
12  47  29  38 -12  27   0 0.00  0.0    0 12.1 25 320   M    M   0        34 320
13  51  26  39 -11  26   0 0.00  0.0    0  4.3 14 330   M    M   0        21 350
14  55  26  41  -9  24   0 0.00  0.0    0  2.1  9 170   M    M   0        13 170
15  67  29  48  -2  17   0 0.04    M    0  5.3 15 340   M    M   4 1      19 340
16  51  22  37 -13  28   0 0.25    M    0 12.4 23 340   M    M   9 148    32 340
17  37  14  26 -25  39   0 0.00  0.0    0  5.1 13  10   M    M   0        18  30
18  39  15  27 -24  38   0 0.00  0.0    0  2.8  8  80   M    M   6        10 170
19  61  36  49  -2  16   0 0.01    M    0  6.4 20 160   M    M  10 1      24 160
20  72  51  62  11   3   0 0.10  0.0    0  7.3 17 160   M    M   7 12     20 150
21  74  64  69  18   0   4 0.02  0.0    0 12.6 21 170   M    M   9 1      24 160
22  69  35  52   1  13   0    T    M    0  8.8 23 330   M    M   2        30 320
23  63  28  46  -5  19   0 0.00  0.0    0  3.0 14 330   M    M   0        19 320
24  65  27  46  -5  19   0 0.00  0.0    0  2.7 12  30   M    M   0        16  60
25  65  26  46  -5  19   0 0.00  0.0    0  4.3 15 170   M    M   0        20 170
26  69  36  53   2  12   0 0.00  0.0    0  6.8 17 170   M    M   9        21 170
27  65  58  62  11   3   0 0.82  0.0    0  2.6  9  80   M    M  10 1      12  90
28  69  42  56   5   9   0    T  0.0    0  5.1 13 340   M    M   6 1      17  10
29  63  34  49  -2  16   0 0.00  0.0    0  6.7 22 340   M    M   0        30 330
30  63  30  47  -4  18   0 0.00  0.0    0  4.6 12  80   M    M   0        15  80
31  71  30  51  -1  14   0 0.00  0.0    0  7.7 21 190   M    M   0 1      24 200
================================================================================
SM 1824 1012       592   4  2.40    T    186.3          M      122
================================================================================
AV 58.8 32.7                               6.0 FASTST   M    M   4    MAX(MPH)
                                 MISC ---->  # 29 330               # 45  330
================================================================================
Edited by Collectorpalms
typos, clarification

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Collectorpalms

bottletreesign.jpg

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PalmTreeDude
On 6/20/2018, 10:51:48, NC_Palms said:

Don"t forget about all the native plants that got damaged! 

In habitat? Endless it is just from the weight of snow or ice, that's really bad. 

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Matthew92
On 6/22/2018, 5:44:28, Collectorpalms said:

bottletreesign.jpg

Thanks! This may confirm what I saw on various websites saying this species has considerable cold hardiness: some sites even said it may be able to survive upper teens. One day I'd like to trial one here in Northwest FL zone 8b.

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NC_Palms
On 6/26/2018, 7:33:55, PalmTreeDude said:

In habitat? Endless it is just from the weight of snow or ice, that's really bad. 

In North Carolina, this past winter damaged our native dwarf palmettos and completely defoliated our live oaks, red bays and wax myrtles. 

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PalmTreeDude
On 6/27/2018, 10:19:51, NC_Palms said:

In North Carolina, this past winter damaged our native dwarf palmettos and completely defoliated our live oaks, red bays and wax myrtles. 

Geez, that's bad. My live oaks were still green somehow, and palms (that were hardy to my zone) were still green. But we must not have been hit as hard, other than the many days of freezing. 

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