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sabalncfl

Possible wild S. Palmetto in New Hanover County, NC?

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PalmTreeDude

So they are palmetto! SWEET! This is crazy, and there are a few in the area, exciting! Thank you for looking at these, it is awesome to see them there, I am a huge Sabal palmetto fan. 

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Zeeth

What are the closest cultivated Sabal palmetto to these palms? 

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frienduvafrond
13 hours ago, Anthony_B said:
13 hours ago, Anthony_B said:
13 hours ago, Anthony_B said:
13 hours ago, Anthony_B said:
13 hours ago, Anthony_B said:

I don't think I have the guts to find out what's lurking in that swamp.  Google satellite imagery makes it look simple but in reality I think it is grassy, muddy muck - the kind of stuff you can't get through on foot or in a boat.

 

I am wondering if it would honestly be easier to cut through the woods.  This looks like a potential entrance point.

Entrance.thumb.jpg.8c90a06019c9af2c9b2a5

According to Google's scale, we would potentially park at the pier, walk 1200 feet along the side of the road and then it's only a 425 ft walk pushing through the trees til we could see across that little swamp pond.

 

hike.thumb.jpg.3e89e974912520735d1445b3e

 

 

You live in Leland, too, huh?  I'm in Mallory Creek, we're probably neighbors.  We could potentially make history and add a new county to the list.  What do we get for being the discoverers of the most northern stand of trunking palms on the east coast?

 

 

I don't think I have the guts to find out what's lurking in that swamp.  Google satellite imagery makes it look simple but in reality I think it is grassy, muddy muck - the kind of stuff you can't get through on foot or in a boat.

 

I am wondering if it would honestly be easier to cut through the woods.  This looks like a potential entrance point.

Entrance.thumb.jpg.8c90a06019c9af2c9b2a5

According to Google's scale, we would potentially park at the pier, walk 1200 feet along the side of the road and then it's only a 425 ft walk pushing through the trees til we could see across that little swamp pond.

 

hike.thumb.jpg.3e89e974912520735d1445b3e

 

 

You live in Leland, too, huh?  I'm in Mallory Creek, we're probably neighbors.  We could potentially make history and add a new county to the list.  What do we get for being the discoverers of the most northern stand of trunking palms on the east coast?

 

 

I don't think I have the guts to find out what's lurking in that swamp.  Google satellite imagery makes it look simple but in reality I think it is grassy, muddy muck - the kind of stuff you can't get through on foot or in a boat.

 

I am wondering if it would honestly be easier to cut through the woods.  This looks like a potential entrance point.

Entrance.thumb.jpg.8c90a06019c9af2c9b2a5

According to Google's scale, we would potentially park at the pier, walk 1200 feet along the side of the road and then it's only a 425 ft walk pushing through the trees til we could see across that little swamp pond.

 

hike.thumb.jpg.3e89e974912520735d1445b3e

 

 

You live in Leland, too, huh?  I'm in Mallory Creek, we're probably neighbors.  We could potentially make history and add a new county to the list.  What do we get for being the discoverers of the most northern stand of trunking palms on the east coast?

 

 

I don't think I have the guts to find out what's lurking in that swamp.  Google satellite imagery makes it look simple but in reality I think it is grassy, muddy muck - the kind of stuff you can't get through on foot or in a boat.

 

I am wondering if it would honestly be easier to cut through the woods.  This looks like a potential entrance point.

Entrance.thumb.jpg.8c90a06019c9af2c9b2a5

According to Google's scale, we would potentially park at the pier, walk 1200 feet along the side of the road and then it's only a 425 ft walk pushing through the trees til we could see across that little swamp pond.

 

hike.thumb.jpg.3e89e974912520735d1445b3e

 

 

You live in Leland, too, huh?  I'm in Mallory Creek, we're probably neighbors.  We could potentially make history and add a new county to the list.  What do we get for being the discoverers of the most northern stand of trunking palms on the east coast?

 

 

I don't think I have the guts to find out what's lurking in that swamp.  Google satellite imagery makes it look simple but in reality I think it is grassy, muddy muck - the kind of stuff you can't get through on foot or in a boat.

 

I am wondering if it would honestly be easier to cut through the woods.  This looks like a potential entrance point.

Entrance.thumb.jpg.8c90a06019c9af2c9b2a5

According to Google's scale, we would potentially park at the pier, walk 1200 feet along the side of the road and then it's only a 425 ft walk pushing through the trees til we could see across that little swamp pond.

 

hike.thumb.jpg.3e89e974912520735d1445b3e

 

 

You live in Leland, too, huh?  I'm in Mallory Creek, we're probably neighbors.  We could potentially make history and add a new county to the list.  What do we get for being the discoverers of the most northern stand of trunking palms on the east coast?

 

 

13 hours ago, Anthony_B said:

I don't think I have the guts to find out what's lurking in that swamp.  Google satellite imagery makes it look simple but in reality I think it is grassy, muddy muck - the kind of stuff you can't get through on foot or in a boat.

 

I am wondering if it would honestly be easier to cut through the woods.  This looks like a potential entrance point.

Entrance.thumb.jpg.8c90a06019c9af2c9b2a5

According to Google's scale, we would potentially park at the pier, walk 1200 feet along the side of the road and then it's only a 425 ft walk pushing through the trees til we could see across that little swamp pond.

 

hike.thumb.jpg.3e89e974912520735d1445b3e

 

 

You live in Leland, too, huh?  I'm in Mallory Creek, we're probably neighbors.  We could potentially make history and add a new county to the list.  What do we get for being the discoverers of the most northern stand of trunking palms on the east coast?

 

 

Yes I live in Leland between Phoenix and Northwest, the opposite direction from you, but neighbors nevertheless. Your map above is about where we went in. We just parked on the side of the road there. There are deer trails in there to follow. For the record the most northern stand of trunking palms on the east coast would be the sabal minors of Hyde or Pamlico county, as Gary in New Bern has documented. I remain skeptical, yet open, to the possibility of these being from BHI. I will let you "google earthers" have the acknowledgements for the discovery. Give me credit for being crazy enouph to go in there looking, the day after my bro-in-law saw his first copperhead at Kure beach, and for having the persuasiveness to convince my son and bro-in-law to go in with me. :-)

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frienduvafrond

Sorry about that last post, not sure how that thing quadrupled on me. My apologies to the board.

 

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frienduvafrond
2 hours ago, Zeeth said:

What are the closest cultivated Sabal palmetto to these palms? 

There are introduced sabals just up the road 200', near the entrance of the paved road. which you can see on the map a few posts above. I am not sure I see them in these google earth pics though.

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Brad Mondel

Anybody have a drone they can fly into the deeper woods  and get shots of the taller ones? 

Edited by Brad Mondel

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DCA_Palm_Fan
8 hours ago, Zeeth said:

What are the closest cultivated Sabal palmetto to these palms? 

That was my question.   It appears to have been answered.    The next question is how old are the cultivated ones vs these "wild" ones.   The ones he managed to get to are large enough to be fairly old since they grow ever so painfully slow.   The tall one is the one I'm really interested in seeing even more though.  Those tall old ones are definitely wild. Please do get a drone out there and see what you can find!  That would be amazing!

Even though there are "cultivated" ones vs "locally native"  the palms are still all the same exact species so they are still native.   My thought is that they were native even further north up to SE, Virginia (Va Beach area and south).  I know that cultivated ones have been there for some 30 years plus now, and I have friends there that have mature, tall, seeding S. Palmettos in their yards there, and I know that I see seedlings of them and windmills in alot of places when I have been there.  Those S. Palmetto up there only look terrible right on the beach / ocean front.  A few blocks inland they seem to survive the cold snaps and occasional snow just fine with little damage.  

   To me I would not be shocked if there are somewhere out there still some Native S. Palmetto that are hidden from view in some of the dense wilderness areas of eastern NC even further north.  Palmetto are very tough palms and can handle quite a lot. 

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Anthony_B
11 hours ago, frienduvafrond said:

Yes I live in Leland between Phoenix and Northwest, the opposite direction from you, but neighbors nevertheless. Your map above is about where we went in. We just parked on the side of the road there. There are deer trails in there to follow. For the record the most northern stand of trunking palms on the east coast would be the sabal minors of Hyde or Pamlico county, as Gary in New Bern has documented. I remain skeptical, yet open, to the possibility of these being from BHI. I will let you "google earthers" have the acknowledgements for the discovery. Give me credit for being crazy enouph to go in there looking, the day after my bro-in-law saw his first copperhead at Kure beach, and for having the persuasiveness to convince my son and bro-in-law to go in with me. :-)

Minors aren't considered "trunking" to my knowledge, even though they kinda sorta do when they're super old.  But it's pretty awesome you went in there.  I'd like to send some seed off and get it analyzed and confirmed.  It would be pretty neat.

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Zeeth
15 minutes ago, Anthony_B said:

Minors aren't considered "trunking" to my knowledge, even though they kinda sorta do when they're super old.  But it's pretty awesome you went in there.  I'd like to send some seed off and get it analyzed and confirmed.  It would be pretty neat.

Fruit from the northern population is larger than typical S. palmetto. This is thought to be because the larger fruit is more buoyant, which translates to a higher chance of floating north before sprouting. Measuring the fruit size should be helpful in determining if it's from the BHI population or from landscape palms.

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sabalncfl
6 hours ago, DCA_Palm_Fan said:

That was my question.   It appears to have been answered.    The next question is how old are the cultivated ones vs these "wild" ones.   The ones he managed to get to are large enough to be fairly old since they grow ever so painfully slow.   The tall one is the one I'm really interested in seeing even more though.  Those tall old ones are definitely wild. Please do get a drone out there and see what you can find!  That would be amazing!

Even though there are "cultivated" ones vs "locally native"  the palms are still all the same exact species so they are still native.   My thought is that they were native even further north up to SE, Virginia (Va Beach area and south).  I know that cultivated ones have been there for some 30 years plus now, and I have friends there that have mature, tall, seeding S. Palmettos in their yards there, and I know that I see seedlings of them and windmills in alot of places when I have been there.  Those S. Palmetto up there only look terrible right on the beach / ocean front.  A few blocks inland they seem to survive the cold snaps and occasional snow just fine with little damage.  

   To me I would not be shocked if there are somewhere out there still some Native S. Palmetto that are hidden from view in some of the dense wilderness areas of eastern NC even further north.  Palmetto are very tough palms and can handle quite a lot. 

I think some BHI descended seeds should be mass planted on Hatteras and Ocracoke islands.

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frienduvafrond
On 4/2/2018, 2:14:12, DCA_Palm_Fan said:

That was my question.   It appears to have been answered.    The next question is how old are the cultivated ones vs these "wild" ones.   The ones he managed to get to are large enough to be fairly old since they grow ever so painfully slow.   The tall one is the one I'm really interested in seeing even more though.  Those tall old ones are definitely wild. Please do get a drone out there and see what you can find!  That would be amazing!

Even though there are "cultivated" ones vs "locally native"  the palms are still all the same exact species so they are still native.   My thought is that they were native even further north up to SE, Virginia (Va Beach area and south).  I know that cultivated ones have been there for some 30 years plus now, and I have friends there that have mature, tall, seeding S. Palmettos in their yards there, and I know that I see seedlings of them and windmills in alot of places when I have been there.  Those S. Palmetto up there only look terrible right on the beach / ocean front.  A few blocks inland they seem to survive the cold snaps and occasional snow just fine with little damage.  

   To me I would not be shocked if there are somewhere out there still some Native S. Palmetto that are hidden from view in some of the dense wilderness areas of eastern NC even further north.  Palmetto are very tough palms and can handle quite a lot. 

It is hard to tell from pics, but the tree line here is subject to almost constant wind, these trees grow short and stocky except for the occasional slash pine. Most are no taller than 15'. I believe if there were 20' palmettos in there you could see them from the road, or at the federal point parking lot that juts out a bit into the bay. The "cultivated" palmettos were plenty big to be seeding (20')? That woods is also subject to tidal flooding, and hurricane/tropical storm force winds. Many may have fallen over by now? It is supposed to be cold here on Sunday, I am contemplating another trip in before the heat gets the cold blooded creatures stirring too much. Would be some tricky drone flying with the wind.

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palmfriend

This thread is one of the most exciting I have ever followed - great job well done! Palmtalk at its best!

Thanks for sharing,

Lars

 

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PalmatierMeg

Sabal palmettos have evolved to face major hurricanes. If they are healthy they seldom fall during storms. I've been through cat 4 Charley in 2004 and cat 3 Irma last year. I've seen trees, including some palms, ripped out of the ground. But I can't remember seeing Sabal palmettos downed unless they were crushed by other falling debris. That includes Sabals planted in pure sand at our time share on Ft. Myers Beach. They are truly tough palms. 

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frienduvafrond

20180408_165736.jpg

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frienduvafrond

My son took this with his phone camera through a pair of binoculars, sorry for the quality

20180408_170335.jpg

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sabalncfl
1 hour ago, frienduvafrond said:

My son took this with his phone camera through a pair of binoculars, sorry for the quality

20180408_170335.jpg

No boots, that palm has probably been there a while.  Maybe the short stature is partly due to being exposed to winds?  Good shot of it.

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PalmTreeDude
21 hours ago, frienduvafrond said:

20180408_165736.jpg

 

21 hours ago, frienduvafrond said:

My son took this with his phone camera through a pair of binoculars, sorry for the quality

20180408_170335.jpg

LOOKING GOOD! You need to tell someone about this, maybe someone that can add another county on the USDA Plant Database range. There also appears to be a few at 33.960623,-77.931698 on Google Maps which is a little farther North. Thank you for locating these, it is an awesome discovery! 

Screenshot_20180409-153041_Maps.jpg

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PalmTreeDude

@sabalncfl Thank you to finding these! :greenthumb:

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Zeeth
24 minutes ago, PalmTreeDude said:

LOOKING GOOD! You need to tell someone about this, maybe someone that can add another county on the USDA Plant Database range. There also appears to be a few at 33.960623,-77.931698 on Google Maps which is a little farther North. Thank you for locating these, it is an awesome discovery! 

I'm in the process of documenting this in a journal article along with wild Roystonea regia in Manatee county. John Dransfield says that it may make a good article in Palms. 

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PalmTreeDude
4 minutes ago, Zeeth said:

I'm in the process of documenting this in a journal article along with wild Roystonea regia in Manatee county. John Dransfield says that it may make a good article in Palms. 

Sounds good! Let us know when it is done. Here is something crazy I found, look at the native range map for Sabal palmetto on the USDA Plant Database, it does not include many counties where Palmetto are very common and seen everywhere in the wild. For example the ones in Florida. 

Screenshot_20180409-160306_Chrome.jpg

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Palmsbro
4 hours ago, PalmTreeDude said:

Sounds good! Let us know when it is done. Here is something crazy I found, look at the native range map for Sabal palmetto on the USDA Plant Database, it does not include many counties where Palmetto are very common and seen everywhere in the wild. For example the ones in Florida. 

Screenshot_20180409-160306_Chrome.jpg

This map is so wrong. Sabal palmetto not native to Hillsbourough and Alachua counties (among others)! No. There are huge gaps that make no sense. New Hanover County would be a nice addition though.

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sabalncfl
15 hours ago, Palmsbro said:

This map is so wrong. Sabal palmetto not native to Hillsbourough and Alachua counties (among others)! No. There are huge gaps that make no sense. New Hanover County would be a nice addition though.

Not to mention it includes Leon County (Tallahassee), that's a stretch.  Also Nassau, Taylor and Levy counties are for sure in the habitat.

Edited by sabalncfl

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sabalncfl

I also have checked Zekes Island (between BHI complex and Ft Fisher) in the past to no avail, but upon further inspection there seems to be a couple areas of possible palmettos.  The most obvious of the two (zoom in to see):  https://www.google.com/maps/place/33%C2%B055'36.7%22N+77%C2%B056'45.7%22W/@33.9268521,-77.9547788,3461m/data=!3m2!1e3!4b1!4m6!3m5!1s0x0:0x0!7e2!8m2!3d33.926853!4d-77.9460239

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PalmTreeDude
11 hours ago, sabalncfl said:

I also have checked Zekes Island (between BHI complex and Ft Fisher) in the past to no avail, but upon further inspection there seems to be a couple areas of possible palmettos.  The most obvious of the two (zoom in to see):  https://www.google.com/maps/place/33%C2%B055'36.7%22N+77%C2%B056'45.7%22W/@33.9268521,-77.9547788,3461m/data=!3m2!1e3!4b1!4m6!3m5!1s0x0:0x0!7e2!8m2!3d33.926853!4d-77.9460239

Dang, I see them. 

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Jono Miller

Hey Y'all. I live in Florida so its not easy to check out these sites, but I can use GoogleEarth. The first image shows cabbage palms emerging from the salt-pruned maritime hammock on Bluff Island, the northernmost of the Bald Head Island complex. Compare that with the beach front image from Kure Beach that is probably just a few feet further north than the three palms you've been discussing. The signature looks very similar. Can someone run out to that beach and confirm or deny a new record for northernmost naturally occurring Sabal palmetto?  If they are cabbage palms, I'll try to include you in my book (the Editor has the final say). 

Bluff Island SAPA.png

Kure Beach SAPA?.png

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Jono Miller
On 4/9/2018, 8:10:37, Palmsbro said:

This map is so wrong. Sabal palmetto not native to Hillsbourough and Alachua counties (among others)! No. There are huge gaps that make no sense. New Hanover County would be a nice addition though.

Why would you say cabbage palms are not native to Hillsborough and Alachua counties? Image on left is Hillsborough, right Alachua.  

Screen Shot 2018-08-11 at 6.27.55 PM.png

Screen Shot 2018-08-11 at 6.32.55 PM.png

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PalmTreeDude
4 hours ago, Jono Miller said:

Why would you say cabbage palms are not native to Hillsborough and Alachua counties? Image on left is Hillsborough, right Alachua.  

Screen Shot 2018-08-11 at 6.27.55 PM.png

Screen Shot 2018-08-11 at 6.32.55 PM.png

I think he was saying that jokingly. Since the map does not say they are native there even though they obviously are. 

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Jono Miller

Okay. I can see that. Confusing though because Alachua is shaded in as a county where cabbage palms were recorded.

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frienduvafrond
On 8/9/2018, 11:59:15, Jono Miller said:

Hey Y'all. I live in Florida so its not easy to check out these sites, but I can use GoogleEarth. The first image shows cabbage palms emerging from the salt-pruned maritime hammock on Bluff Island, the northernmost of the Bald Head Island complex. Compare that with the beach front image from Kure Beach that is probably just a few feet further north than the three palms you've been discussing. The signature looks very similar. Can someone run out to that beach and confirm or deny a new record for northernmost naturally occurring Sabal palmetto?  If they are cabbage palms, I'll try to include you in my book (the Editor has the final say). 

Bluff Island SAPA.png

Kure Beach SAPA?.png

These are not palmettos. No palmettos anywhere around there. I went there Sunday. Some minors a bit further north in the trees.

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NC_Palms

I wish I found this thread earlier! I am moving to Wilmington in a few months for university. I'll try to track down some more in New Hanover County. 

Edited by NC_Palms
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Jono Miller
On 8/20/2018, 7:44:39, frienduvafrond said:

These are not palmettos. No palmettos anywhere around there. I went there Sunday. Some minors a bit further north in the trees.

Thanks for checking that out. I believe you, but what do you think those whitish, pouffy canopies protruding above the other lower vegetation are?  Baccharis?

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Jono Miller

Now I feel guilty for encouraging NC Palms to run out to the beach for no pay off. But that's not stopping me from suggesting two more locations. Let me know what you think. 

northernmost palms?.pdf

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NC_Palms
23 hours ago, Jono Miller said:

Now I feel guilty for encouraging NC Palms to run out to the beach for no pay off. But that's not stopping me from suggesting two more locations. Let me know what you think. 

northernmost palms?.pdf

Nah its fine. I just don't know when I will be back down to the Wilmington area.

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frienduvafrond
On 8/22/2018, 9:16:12, Jono Miller said:

Thanks for checking that out. I believe you, but what do you think those whitish, pouffy canopies protruding above the other lower vegetation are?  Baccharis?

Baccharis might be it. I saw mostly cedars and wax myrtles. Next time I head that way I will snap a pic of that location for comparing. That is a easy place to find, it is the entrance to the path that leads to the old hermits cave.

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NC_Palms

I know it’s been a few months but has anyone obtained leaf samples of possibly native Sabal palmetto in New Hanover?

I am planning to go down to Kure Beach in two weeks to check out possible native Sabal palmetto specimens. I hope I can get some leaf samples to send to the NC Herbarium. 

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      Sabal minor Emerald Isle Giant in 1g pot. It is about 2-3 years old. See the following link for info on this variety of Sabal minor
      https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/58162-sabal-minor-emerald-isle-giant-wseeds-any-interest/&tab=comments#comment-868587
      Sabal miamiensis in 4" pot. It is about 12-18 months old. See link below for info
      https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/53084-sabal-miamiensis-seeds-for-sale/&tab=comments#comment-803477
      See particulars below:
      Sabal minor Emerald Isle Giant, 2-3 years old = $15.00     AND
      Sabal miamiensis, 12-18 months old = $10.00
      Shipping for both = $10.00    via Priority Mail. No shipping overseas. No shipping to HI. Palms will be sent without pots & soil with roots wrapped in damp orchid moss, clear wrap & foil
      Total = $35.00
      Payment via Paypal
      PM me if you are interested
      Photos below
      Sabal minor Emerald Isle Giant (left) & Sabal miamiensis (right)

      Emerald Isle Giant

      Emerald Isle Giant Mother Palm

      miamiensis

      miamiensis Mother Palm

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