Some nice Phoenix roebelenii hybrids; P. roebelenii x ???

[Eric in Orlando]

These Phoenix palms are growing at the front of a large wholesale nursery just east of Eustis, FL (about 34 miles NW of Orlando). There are planted with some  Phoenix roebelenii specimens. These hybrids most likely have P. roebelenii as a parent but not sure what else is crossed in. The P. roebelenii have some cold damage from this past Jan ,they probably had 26-27F in that area. But these hybrids had no damage. They are great specimens.

 

 

[kinzyjr]

I'm still holding my breath for a cross with phoenix theophrasti...

[Eric in Orlando]

That would be a great cross!

[kinzyjr]

I had heard someone had one.  Maybe from @Phoenikakias?

[Matthew92]

I'd guess those are part P. reclinata or P. loureiori- maybe more so on the latter.

[Phoenikakias]

1 hour ago, kinzyjr said:

I had heard someone had one.  Maybe from @Phoenikakias?

I had given once a couple of seedlings to someone in the southern states. But I am not sure whether they were actually hybrids or genuine roebelenii. It had proven that because of my inexperience many resulted seedlings from this particular crossing effort were actually nothing more but pure roebelenii, because I had not prevented effectively a contamination with roebelenii's pollen. Other seedlings from the same seed batch were indeed hybrids according to a testimony of a certain person, whom I shared the seeds with. I can only tell with certainty, based on repeated failures (well mainly) of crossing efforts using theophrasti's pollen, that achieving a viable hybrid seed is quite difficult and a rare occasion. Not unprecedented though, as I have come recently across the information that it is also impossible to produce viable hybrid seeds when a dactylifera is pollinated by pusilla. Last year's effort to cross pollinate my roebelenii with theophrasti ended in only a dozen (or less) seemingly viable seeds. Given the very low number, my initial thought had been another unwilling contamination by roebelenii's pollen. The following example of Erik however, who has achieved only two up to now developing fruits on a whole inflorescence through a crossing effort using nucifera's pollen, gives me additional hope that also this handful of seeds are indeed hybrids. Nobody could blame Erik for not having protected effectively the female flowers from contamination by unwanted pollen. All those seeds have been given away to one person, whose name I am not going to reveal. He may came forward on his own, if he wishes to. Currently I grow three seedlings as the result of an effort to cross loureiroi with theophrasti's pollen. Those three seedlings are the total result of my crossing effort!

[Austinpalm]

Ever seen any P. roebelenii x acaulis? I would like to find something that has the same general proportions as a regular roebelenii but with cold hardiness.  Since most acaulis I've seen in the US appear to me to be larger hybrids, I'm thinking that crossing a roebelenii with the local (relatively speaking) acaulis might produce the desired plant.

Edited March 19, 2018 by Austinpalm

[kinzyjr]

1 hour ago, Phoenikakias said:

I had given once a couple of seedlings to someone in the southern states. But I am not sure whether they were actually hybrids or genuine roebelenii. It had proven that because of my inexperience many resulted seedlings from this particular crossing effort were actually nothing more but pure roebelenii, because I had not prevented effectively a contamination with roebelenii's pollen. Other seedlings from the same seed batch were indeed hybrids according to a testimony of a certain person, whom I shared the seeds with. I can only tell with certainty, based on repeated failures (well mainly) of crossing efforts using theophrasti's pollen, that achieving a viable hybrid seed is quite difficult and a rare occasion. Not unprecedented though, as I have come recently across the information that it is also impossible to produce viable hybrid seeds when a dactylifera is pollinated by pusilla. Last year's effort to cross pollinate my roebelenii with theophrasti ended in only a dozen (or less) seemingly viable seeds. Given the very low number, my initial thought had been another unwilling contamination by roebelenii's pollen. The following example of Erik however, who has achieved only two up to now developing fruits on a whole inflorescence through a crossing effort using nucifera's pollen, gives me additional hope that also this handful of seeds are indeed hybrids. Nobody could blame Erik for not having protected effectively the female flowers from contamination by unwanted pollen. All those seeds have been given away to one person, whose name I am not going to reveal. He may came forward on his own, if he wishes to. Currently I grow three seedlings as the result of an effort to cross loureiroi with theophrasti's pollen. Those three seedlings are the total result of my crossing effort!

Thanks for sharing your experience.  It will take at least another 5 years until I have any mature theophrasti to even attempt this.  I have 11 mature phoenix roebelenii that polinate and reproduce, so at least that much is covered.

[iwan]

8 hours ago, Opal92 said:

I'd guess those are part P. reclinata or P. loureiori- maybe more so on the latter.

If those are P. loureiroi x roebelinii, I hope mine turn out like those.

[Eric in Orlando]

19 hours ago, Opal92 said:

I'd guess those are part P. reclinata or P. loureiori- maybe more so on the latter.

I don't think there is any P. reclinata in them. All 3 specimens are double trunks but no suckering.

Phoienix loureiroi is a great palm. I would love to see it crossed with P. rupicola.

[Phoenikakias]

19 hours ago, Opal92 said:

I'd guess those are part P. reclinata or P. loureiori- maybe more so on the latter.

Maybe the specimens in the second from top picture, because it seems having shorter fronds. Loureiroi is reported to have no longer fronds than 2 mt. Hard to imagine so, how a hybrid between loureiroi and roebelenii can have fronds longer than 2 mt, while both parents have shorter fronds. But again hybridization unleashes sometimes suppressed genes. I just don't find it probable because of this.

[Missi]

Hmm...I had previously dismissed Phoenix species, but now 'm learning about some rather attractive Phoenix species in this thread. Carry on...

[Phoenikakias]

My roebelenii x dactylifera hybrid has produced for the first time fruits, which begin to ripen. I thought it would be helpful to share some pictures of the ripening fruits with the purpose to serve as an additional id tool for hybrids of unknown origin.

Edited September 9, 2018 by Phoenikakias

[Phoenikakias]

On 3/19/2018, 9:19:15, Opal92 said:

I'd guess those are part P. reclinata or P. loureiori- maybe more so on the latter.

Loureiroi x roebelenii hybrids have pronounced microscopic hooks on the midrib of the leaflets. 

[Phoenikakias]

On 3/19/2018, 10:55:45, Austinpalm said:

Ever seen any P. roebelenii x acaulis? I would like to find something that has the same general proportions as a regular roebelenii but with cold hardiness.  Since most acaulis I've seen in the US appear to me to be larger hybrids, I'm thinking that crossing a roebelenii with the local (relatively speaking) acaulis might produce the desired plant.

As a general rule  in the Phoenix hybrids the pollen donor defines rather their phenotype. Two hybrid types with roebelenii as pollen donor have loose fronds like roebelenii while roelenii x dactylifera hybrids (this time roebelenii in the role of mother) have foliage (and fruits) reminiscent of dactylifera.

[Phoenikakias]

On 3/20/2018, 5:53:06, iwan said:

If those are P. loureiroi x roebelinii, I hope mine turn out like those.

Do (or did of they are older) yours look like those ones?

[Phoenikakias]

3 hours ago, Phoenikakias said:

As a general rule  in the Phoenix hybrids the pollen donor defines rather their phenotype. Two hybrid types with roebelenii as pollen donor have loose fronds like roebelenii while roelenii x dactylifera hybrids (this time roebelenii in the role of mother) have foliage (and fruits) reminiscent of dactylifera.

First one is an f1 roebelenii x dactylifera

Second one is an f1 reclinata x roebelenii

 

Now which one is closer to roebelenii in appearance?

[Austinpalm]

On 9/9/2018, 8:00:59, Phoenikakias said:

As a general rule  in the Phoenix hybrids the pollen donor defines rather their phenotype. Two hybrid types with roebelenii as pollen donor have loose fronds like roebelenii while roelenii x dactylifera hybrids (this time roebelenii in the role of mother) have foliage (and fruits) reminiscent of dactylifera.

If the phenotype is more reminiscent of the pollen donor, how does cold hardiness relate to the mother or pollen donor? Does that tend to relate to one or the other more or is it just a crap shoot?

[Phoenikakias]

8 hours ago, Austinpalm said:

If the phenotype is more reminiscent of the pollen donor, how does cold hardiness relate to the mother or pollen donor? Does that tend to relate to one or the other more or is it just a crap shoot?

We need more experiments to conduct (and repete) in order to have a safe answer.  So I can only restrict myself to personal experience. Roebelenii x dactylifera is for sure more cold tolerant than pure roebelenii. During a 2013 light freeze, my mature robelenii plants got some spots on some leaves, while 5 small outplanted hybrids remained unscathed. In Italy, Naples, some years ago occured a dip in temperature to about -5 C (dry, without rain or snow), whereby some loureiroi x roebelenii seedlings perished (especially those with the floppiest leaves). This is all I can contribute as information. In my climate such cold spells are very rare and therefore my hybrids have noy been subjected up to now to a real crash test, and I am very glad about, I have to admit.

[gyuseppe]

roebelenii hybrids, with more cold resistant species, are perfect for those who can not grow pure roebeleni

in January 2017 we had - 5.6 degrees celsius, roebeleni in the garden are dead, but roebelenii in the pots sheltered by a shed are not dead, even if leaves are burned
 

[Phoenikakias]

18 hours ago, gyuseppe said:

roebelenii hybrids, with more cold resistant species, are perfect for those who can not grow pure roebeleni

in January 2017 we had - 5.6 degrees celsius, roebeleni in the garden are dead, but roebelenii in the pots sheltered by a shed are not dead, even if leaves are burned
 

 Giuseppe, was it the same cold spell that killed also some of your loureiroi x roebelenii seedlings? I had the impression that the lethal cold spell for latter had occured one year earlier. Btw how big had been the roebelenii plants that got killed by the 2017 cold spell? Were they planted in the ground or potted?

[gyuseppe]

in January 2017  ,They're dead  only the roebelenii who were unprotected, roebelenii in gardens and in pots with protection not dead

after many months, at the end of summer nobody seedlings of loureiroi x roebelenii is dead, they are all resurrected! to put new leaves, while plants that did not seem to die, months later they died,,these were:chambeyronia macrocarpa,allagoptera arenaria,archontrophoenix cunninghamiana,Rhopalostylis sapida  and baueri

 

Edited September 12, 2018 by gyuseppe

[gyuseppe]

I have phoenix roebelenii x reclinata  and these in winter the leaves are not burned by the cold always look good, only in January 2017 leaves have burned

I have only 1 of phoenix roebelenii x theophrasti and this in January 2017 the leaves are not  burned

[Phoenikakias]

25 minutes ago, gyuseppe said:

I have phoenix roebelenii x reclinata  and these in winter the leaves are not burned by the cold always look good, only in January 2017 leaves have burned

I have only 1 of phoenix roebelenii x theophrasti and this in January 2017 the leaves are not  burned

Is the roebelenii x theophrasti the result of my first or second crossing attempt? Does it look closer to roebelenii or to theophrasti?

[gyuseppe]

on your first try, will they be 3 or 4 years ago? looks like a mini theophrasti
while roebelenii x reclinata  looks more like roebelenii

[kinzyjr]

10 hours ago, Phoenikakias said:

Is the roebelenii x theophrasti the result of my first or second crossing attempt? Does it look closer to roebelenii or to theophrasti?

 

3 hours ago, gyuseppe said:

on your first try, will they be 3 or 4 years ago? looks like a mini theophrasti
while roebelenii x reclinata  looks more like roebelenii

Sounds like gold has been struck :)

[Phoenikakias]

7 hours ago, kinzyjr said:

 

Sounds like gold has been struck :)

I think that all seeds of the second crossing attempt should belong to this crossing. They were only about a dozen and by that time I was in doubt about their identity, as I suspected a contamination (if hand pollination did lead to some fertile seeds, why was not pollinated also the vast majority of the flowers on the same inflorescence?). But after I brought to germination the only three viable seeds from another crossing (loureiroi x theophrasti), seedlings from which have clearly theophrasti traits (very rigid, succulent leaves), I have changed my mind also about the former seeds. Below one seedling from latter crossing, it is only 9 months old.

[Kris]

Nice topic and great visuals...