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mike in kurtistown

unknown Khao Sak

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mike in kurtistown

During the southern Thailand pre-tour before the 2012 biennail, we visited the Khao Sak National Park. I collected seeds of an unknown palm on the road past the park headquarters. There were a line of them, suggesting strongly that they were a cultivated planting. The fruits were oval, 1.0 inch long and 0.6 inch wide, and were a coral/orange color. Leaf bases were yellowish. Since I was preoccupied with a bleeding leech bite, I foolishly neglected to get a picture.

I have grown one of them here at home. Planting one in a near full-sun location, the leaves burnt almost as soon as they grew, though the plant seems to be a fast grower.I have kept it covered with shadecloth, and it has grown well. It will be moved as soon as I can find a better place for it.

I hope that someone will volunteer to ID this palm. Pictures follow.

5aa35c1c581fa_unknownKhaoSak_1_MLM_03091

5aa35c1fa9822_unknownKhaoSak_base_MLM_03

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XYZ

Nice palm.

Wonder as to wisdom of admitting to a Lacey Act violation on a public forum. Am I the only one who has observed that the IPS seems to tacitly condone wild seed collection by its members while on holiday then preaching the importance of conservation to the rest of us? No dog in this fight other than despising hypocrisy.

Collecting plants or seeds in national parks without a permit anywhere in the world is frowned upon/illegal/unethical. The fact that people feel free to brag about it on PT and elsewhere doesn’t change any of this at all. To an outsider, it is frankly off-putting that this practice gets a nod and a wink from this forum. Either the palm collecting community is open-minded about exploitation (all kinds) of wild populations, or it is not. I’m perfectly fine either way, but am puzzled by those beating their chests bemoaning biodiversity loss while cheerfully pocketing its spoils, all the while wagging their fingers at “poachers” and agribusiness.

Not sorry if I’m raining on anyone’s parade. This “thing” about unlicensed plant collecting by Gringos at (ostensibly) plant conservation events hosted in tropical countries - then disseminated across the internet - makes everyone involved look bad. If you’re going to screw the maid, at least be discrete about it ;^)

J

 

 

 

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Donald Sanders

You are correct " the IPS seems to tacitly condone wild seed collection by its members while on holiday then preaching the importance of conservation to the rest of us?    You are correct again "Collecting plants or seeds in national parks without a permit anywhere in the world is frowned upon/illegal/unethical."    You go on "I’m perfectly fine either way, but am puzzled by those beating their chests bemoaning biodiversity loss while cheerfully pocketing its spoils, all the while wagging their fingers at “poachers” and agribusiness.     No you are not perfectly fine either way.   You are the hypocrite!   .  " This “thing” about unlicensed plant collecting by Gringos at (ostensibly) plant conservation events hosted in tropical countries - then disseminated across the internet - makes everyone involved look bad.    YOU look bad!  Are you a GINGO too or just a racist?

You fail to see that the palm collecting population is extremely small world wide.   This palm collecting group does not destroy palms.   We are losing palm populations because of habitat destruction, diseases and politics.   The same politics you site about collecting in National Parks in countries where bureaucracy flourishes.

This small group of world wide palm collectors are not getting rich or are even exploiting these seeds.    They nurture these seeds, they meticulously grow these palms, often saving them from the ravages of deforestation, rodents, insects and agribusiness.    The small amount of seeds collected in jungles, parks, beaches and gardens are disseminated around the world.   They are shared!   The world is a better more beautiful place with these beautiful rare palms growing in different environments.    No one is  getting rich from these palms.   These seed collectors insure that many palms do not become extinct.    I have seen thousands of seed on the ground in National parks all over the world.    So what if a few take seeds.  Better leave them for the rats and bulldozer!    Those who you complain about are mostly back yard gardeners, proud they can make these palms survive.   They are not "beating their chests bemoaning biodiversity loss while cheerfully pocketing its spoils, all the while wagging their fingers at “poachers” and agribusiness."     Avoiding red tape and corruption they take only a very few seeds and these collections help insure the palms survival.

The one who looks bad to me is YOU!   No love or compassion present here, just an arrogant judge.    The only hypocrite here is YOU!    No sense how important these "illegal collectors' are to the survival of so many palms.

I expect that you will tear me out one..   I've read you posts before.    Sad to me some one with you dynamics is  so negative , scolding so many. 

Donald Sanders, Holualoa, Hawaii

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mike in kurtistown

I was amazed Stone Jaguar's response in what is usually a friendly forum. I like to think that I am a good environmentalist without becoming an "environmental Nazi". I think Donald's response is an eloquent rebuttal of some of the ideas expressed. Let me make just a couple additional points.

First, the Lacey Act refers to collection of plants, etc., for commercial purposes. So that's not a factor in this discussion.

Secondly, it's absurd to think that picking up 5 seeds for possible germination and growing in my garden, or a friend's garden, in any way threatens the species in the wild. Parks are legitimately concerned that visitors do not take plants, or parts of plants, from their grounds. In the Thailand parks we visited, most of the small Licualas could no longer be found because of collection by visitors. But parks extending their rules to seed collection is a bureaucratic extension that does not serve useful conservation purposes, unless the species collected is a commercial item in widespread demand. The number of genuine palm collectors interested in propagating non-commercial plants from seeds is extremely small, and the seeds produced by one tree would quickly satisfy such demand with plenty left over for the rats and bulldozers.

When collectors pick a few seeds for personal propagation, they serve nature's purpose in distributing the plant's genes over a wide area. Species have been preserved from extinction in the wild this way. In addition, the rare plants growing in someone's garden help to increase the public's awareness of the species and increases the public demand for conservation of the species. I think Jeff Marcus discussed some of these concepts in his address to the SCPS. I hope his talk will be made available for viewing over the web.

Now, can anyone ID this palm?

 

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XYZ

Mr. Sanders:

Halfway through your response, I grew concerned that you were working yourself into a hypertensive crisis. I sincerely hope you’ve been able to calm down in the interim and wish you well.

I have no intention of criticizing you, since you are obviously passionate about your POV. I will not argue the pitfalls and falacies of ex-situ conservation here, but think it deserves further discussion elsewhere on the forum since I think it’s obvious that most palm species will not be “saved” by private collectors. Operating under the assumption that this was a casual collection by a hobbyist, as opposed to a fully-documented accession for research approved by several layers of Thai authorities, suffice to say that if you are going to take the position that this germplasm is better off overseas than in a Thai NP, you’ve lost me. That it shouldn’t be a huge deal is something altogether. But surely you would agree that it is better that this activity, as outlined, presents troubling optics to both some palm growers and “nature lovers” in general?

I must be thick since I don’t understand why my being agnostic about unsanctioned seed collection by hobbyists or even botanists (shocker - this happens) makes me a hypocrite. Could care less. My principal point here is that the community (esp. the IPS) should self police its public persona in order to avoid unwanted scrutiny by the global authorities. You are no doubt aware that there have been past initiatives to throw entire, rather large genera of palms onto CITES App II. Again - shocker - some zealouts don’t see why we should be allowed to import ANY more exotic flora. If you are unaware of the perils of bringing down additional non-phytosanitary regulation onto palm collectors you should familiarize yourself with the additional legal headaches that this would entail.

You seem to have decided that your personal views take precedence over those of both the people of Thailand - as expressed by their natural resource conservation efforts - and those of the US government. You are free to move to Montana and find suitable remedy for dealing with the jackboot of the latter entity, but it may seem rather high-handed of you from the perspective of a Thai (or, Tico, or Colombian, etc) conservation biologist to determine the disposition of their natural resources. I’m sure you would be irked if the PRC acted similarly with Hawaiian fisheries.

Cheers,

Jay

Mike, post data...nothing more to say on this topic, other than I did not mean to single you out, but this issue has been on my radar for some time. Hash it out (or not) among yourselves, if you care to. I would suggest you carefully read, not scan, current Lacey Act dispositions with regard to plants. It is unbelievably broad and Draconian and makes no distinction with regard to “size”. Everyone dealing with imported wild flora and parts should be aware how over the top current version is. Take it up with your elected representatives, not me.

 

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Donald Sanders

You spelled my name wrong.     Your post defines you well.

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fan palm

Looks like Nenga sp. Mike. prob macrocarpa?

Edited by fan palm

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XYZ

My mistake. I guess you’re not a fan?

Please take a deep breath and consider the response. You might also take a spell checker to your own post while you’re at it.

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Kim

 

This could be an interesting discussion without participants throwing epithets at each other. My guess is many collectors of palm seed are totally ignorant of the Lacey Act (me, for instance. I was not familiar with it). Both sides of the argument have made interesting points. Laws are in place, but are those laws truly protective of rare species? Should the laws be modified, and if so, how? What are the benefits and detriments of the laws as they now stand, and would it make any difference to the long-term survival of species if the laws are enforced, or if they are modified. Laws may have good intentions and unintended consequences. Can the subject be debated calmly and rationally?

I have no answers myself, but am interested in the discussion if it can continue from a problem-solving point of view.

For the record, I don't collect seed when traveling, nor do I ship seeds from my gardens to other places in the world. I have no interest in germinating seeds. Well, unless I could legally procure Lodoicea maldivica. :wub: 

During my tenure as a director, the IPS went to extensive lengths to avoid this site being associated with illegal plant trading. Money was spent on attorneys (all in the US) and a Terms of Use Agreement was developed. Informational links were supposed to be posted for education on the subject. Clearly this has not deterred people from openly trading plants across borders, as we constantly see messages posted (unwittingly or purposely?) in the status updates relating to interstate and/or international plant trading.  The IPS is probably not at risk for misuse of its site. A recent discussion in the news about website laws and liability essentially said it is known and accepted that websites cannot possibly filter every single message posted on a public site, thus the website itself is not responsible for any wrongdoing using the site if efforts are made to filter out wrongdoing. The law relates to mega-sites like YouTube and crimes like sex trafficking; different from a tiny site like PalmTalk and crimes like trading plants in violation of international laws, but essentially the same application. Whatever the laws, even if the IPS is not legally at risk, the reputation is at risk. What then must be done?

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Jamesasb

Guys, all palms in cultivation originate from wild collected seed if you trace back far enough. he said he was collecting from a cultivated row of palms anyway. 

Its easy to forget that quite often local populations don't appreciate or protect their plants. collecting seed from the wild is an absolute must for conservation, weather we approve or not.

farmers have been commonly known to slash and burn and plough over habitat of very rare plants.And i'm not just talking about the third world countries here....Take a look at sabal miamiensis, the site got developed and its gone in the wild..so clearly wild seed collecting can be safeguarding a species with a small population from the actions of other people.

So should we punish the people who collected seed from and saved sabal miamiensis from extinction?

if a population is stable in the wild then only 1 seed per palm per lifetime actually makes it to maturity and thats normally because the environment is tough not because the seeds are rarely prioduced. 

How many rare syagrus species have been paved over in south america, or submerged under reservoirs or farmed over?

 

If we were talking about mature specimens then thats a different matter. I look at all these tree fern trunks imported by the thousands and i have to say I don't think they were all grown from spores......

 

 

Edited by Jamesasb
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XYZ

All right. Given the responses, I guess I do have more to say on this topic:

For those interested, a relevant section of the amended Lacey Act (2008).

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/16/3372

USDA FAQ (2016) that clarifies what the Lacey Act and enforcement agencies consider a “plant”. Please also scroll to section clarifying no “de minimis” exception.

https://www.aphis.usda.gov/plant_health/lacey_act/downloads/faq.pdf

IPS members unfamiliar with its mission statement should read it. It specifically mentions “conservation”.

Anyone with their hair on fire over my initial response should look up the definitions of “tacitly condone” and “hypocrisy”. Does the IPS provide biennial participants with written material familiarizing them with host country wild flora regulations to avoid potentially embarassing misunderstandings?

Any casual perusal of recent USFWS investigations of enforcement actions targeting animal and plant smuggling over past 20 years make it quite clear they have people tasked to monitor hobbyist fora on the internet looking for evidence of violations. That people have ensnared themselves by admissions made indicates that it is probably unwise to do so. Scofflaws bring unwanted scrutiny to the rest of any community.

TRAFFIC, the USFWS, IUCN spokespersons, etc. routinely comment to the media about the roles internet hobbyist fora as well as high-profile internet marketplaces and social media platforms have in fomenting illegal trade in wildlife and plants. Again, if you disbelieve this, you have not been paying attention.

Collectors will collect. Anyone can yield to cupidity. Everyone wants to find a “new” species. But to do so then claim one is doing “God’s work” (i.e. “conservation”) only fools yourself. IMO, there is indeed an ethical (but usually not legal) distinction between salvaging a plant churned aside along a dozer’s track on private lands and “sampling” material without a permit in a NP or protected area.

Why do responses thus far indicate that it is OK amongst some gardeners on this forum to openly break foreign and US laws, because it’s “for the plants’ own good”, rather than the simple fact that they want the plant for their own enjoyment? What proof do they have to bolster the case they are “saving” these plants for more than a moment in time. How many valuable private palm and cycad collections exist that have proper, detailed accession data that gives them true value to a public collection or researcher when the owners die? What has been the fate of the vast majority of “rare” plants in private collections over the past century when the owner loses interest, is incapacitated, or dies? What about open-pollinated palm hybrids accidentally (?) finding their way into collections as true sp.? Who here has documented experience of the challenges of reintroductions of wildlife and/or wild flora?

Reading this thread, one might get the impression that there aren’t legal palm seed sources, some of which are wild-harvested and approved for export by origin countries. While I agree that some desirable novelties are still in the gray trade, for purposes of ornamental palm horticulture there is an astounding assortment of legal, artificially-propagated stock available to the collector.

Be cool. Members of the community who collect wild material overseas and broadcast that fact online should at least be aware that many people and organizations would disagree that they have a divine right to other countries’ natural resources.

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quaman58

That's a pretty palm whatever it is Mike. Thanks for sharing it, despite all the fuss.

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Kim

“Does the IPS provide biennial participants with written material familiarizing them with host country wild flora regulations to avoid potentially embarassing misunderstandings?”

Yes, absolutely. It’s always very clear what the regulations are, when visiting national parks in particular. Signage is clear, announcements are made. Advance print information as I recall makes mention of regulations. As you have read, some disagree passionately with the rules, but the IPS does not promote illegal collecting with a nod and a wink as you seem to imply.

Personally I limit my “collecting” to the spectacular experience of seeing palms in habitat and photographing them. Respected retailers provide more exotic palm choices than I could ever dream to grow.  

You bring up an interesting point about documentation for accession to botanic collections. That has been part of my education as an IPS member — that no matter how spectacular the collection, it is of no value to science without correct documentation. A very well known garden familiar to most on this forum has had to come to terms with that reality, investing countless hours in formalizing what was in someone’s head and scattered notes. This applies when making donations of plants to gardens as well; many people don’t realize their prized palms are not necessarily welcome as gifts. Ask before you dig.

 

 

 

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Moose
1 hour ago, stone jaguar said:

All right. Given the responses, I guess I do have more to say on this topic:

For those interested, a relevant section of the amended Lacey Act (2008).

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/16/3372

USDA FAQ (2016) that clarifies what the Lacey Act and enforcement agencies consider a “plant”. Please also scroll to section clarifying no “de minimis” exception.

https://www.aphis.usda.gov/plant_health/lacey_act/downloads/faq.pdf

IPS members unfamiliar with its mission statement should read it. It specifically mentions “conservation”.

Anyone with their hair on fire over my initial response should look up the definitions of “tacitly condone” and “hypocrisy”. Does the IPS provide biennial participants with written material familiarizing them with host country wild flora regulations to avoid potentially embarassing misunderstandings?

Any casual perusal of recent USFWS investigations of enforcement actions targeting animal and plant smuggling over past 20 years make it quite clear they have people tasked to monitor hobbyist fora on the internet looking for evidence of violations. That people have ensnared themselves by admissions made indicates that it is probably unwise to do so. Scofflaws bring unwanted scrutiny to the rest of any community.

TRAFFIC, the USFWS, IUCN spokespersons, etc. routinely comment to the media about the roles internet hobbyist fora as well as high-profile internet marketplaces and social media platforms have in fomenting illegal trade in wildlife and plants. Again, if you disbelieve this, you have not been paying attention.

Collectors will collect. Anyone can yield to cupidity. Everyone wants to find a “new” species. But to do so then claim one is doing “God’s work” (i.e. “conservation”) only fools yourself. IMO, there is indeed an ethical (but usually not legal) distinction between salvaging a plant churned aside along a dozer’s track on private lands and “sampling” material without a permit in a NP or protected area.

Why do responses thus far indicate that it is OK amongst some gardeners on this forum to openly break foreign and US laws, because it’s “for the plants’ own good”, rather than the simple fact that they want the plant for their own enjoyment? What proof do they have to bolster the case they are “saving” these plants for more than a moment in time. How many valuable private palm and cycad collections exist that have proper, detailed accession data that gives them true value to a public collection or researcher when the owners die? What has been the fate of the vast majority of “rare” plants in private collections over the past century when the owner loses interest, is incapacitated, or dies? What about open-pollinated palm hybrids accidentally (?) finding their way into collections as true sp.? Who here has documented experience of the challenges of reintroductions of wildlife and/or wild flora?

Reading this thread, one might get the impression that there aren’t legal palm seed sources, some of which are wild-harvested and approved for export by origin countries. While I agree that some desirable novelties are still in the gray trade, for purposes of ornamental palm horticulture there is an astounding assortment of legal, artificially-propagated stock available to the collector.

Be cool. Members of the community who collect wild material overseas and broadcast that fact online should at least be aware that many people and organizations would disagree that they have a divine right to other countries’ natural resources.

David Fairchild = Satin :evil: 

Thank for your sermon Preacher.

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XYZ

Kim:

Thanks for an open clarification of IPS position on this topic with regard to its events.

I did not imply that this society “promotes” illegal collection. I never would. I think it is quite clear from its accepted definition that “tacitly condones” is often a passive (in) action. 

Moose: you’re quite welcome. 

David Fairchild was a visionary who died ~65 years ago when the world was a very different place. Seems rather bold to - via the association - attempt to free ride on his achievements. 

 

 

 

 

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PALM MOD

The laws pertaining to the collection and/or transporting of various forms of plant material (including live or dead, seeds, pollen, soil, etc.) is impossibly complex and often times contradictory and conflicting due to local, state/province, country, and international jurisdictions. There are not only conservation concerns, but equally noble intentions regarding introduction of invasive species and various pests and pathogens. I can get a different answer to a question here in Hawaii depending on which Ag inspector I ask - all the way up to the head of the Ag Dept.

A discussion of those laws regarding their suitability and whether they are appropriate for each and every situation that collectors of rare plants may encounter is one thing, and useful to discuss here - with respect given to participants and with understanding given to differing points of views. But as Kim has already attempted to explain regarding whether and what the IPS condones, or even "tacitly condones," during its events, its position regarding anything discussed on this forum is as clear as can be - read on.

Generally speaking (as we are here), Ebay is not responsible for or tacitly condoning if a stolen or counterfeit item is listed on its site. Craigslist is not responsible or tacitly condoning an ad that may be facilitating prostitution. Twitter or FaceBook is not responsible or tacitly condoning or confirming news or opinion that is posted on their site. In fact, much case law has been settled regarding to what extent websites (or radio/TV station) that allow public participation are responsible for, or deemed to be in agreement with, comments that are made on it's platform/station. And we hear those disclaimers constantly ("the views of comments heard on this station are not necessarily those of blah blah blah"). 

Our Terms of Use - carefully crafted by attorneys and given great thought by Directors - makes it perfectly clear, and to the contrary, that nothing that is said on PT should be taken as confirmed, approved, tacitly condoned, or agreed with by the IPS. Just one snippet (among many) from these extensive Terms of Use makes that perfectly clear.

Company (The IPS) cannot control the nature of all of the content available on the Websites. By operating the Websites, Company does not represent or imply that Company endorses any blogs, Contributions or other content available on or linked to by the Websites, including without limitation content hosted on third party websites or provided by third party applications, or that Company believes Contributions, blogs or other content to be accurate, useful or non-harmful. We do not control and are not responsible for unlawful or otherwise objectionable content you may encounter on the Websites or in connection with any Contributions. The Company is not responsible for the conduct, whether online or offline, of any user of the Websites or Company Services.

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mike in kurtistown

When I went to Sarawak with the IPS, we were advised that Malaysia prohibited collection of plants and seeds from the national parks. (And I complied.) When we visited Nong Nooch in Thailand, that private garden also had a rule against seed collecting, though they did give everyone a packet of garden-collected seeds. In the Latin American destinations that IPS has gone to, most absolutely did not care about seed collection, and many participants greedily helped themselves to whatever was available. One exception, as I recall, was Costa Rica, which did not permit collection in the national parks. So, some areas with "collectable" seeds are not forbidden, while others are, and I agree that visiting palm collectors should familiarize themselves with the existing rules and regulations, regardless of whether they agree with them. Some botanical gardens (I am familiar with Montgomery B. C.) are very careful about getting all necessary permits before doing any collecting.

So let's not scare ourselves to death over these issues, but be aware of exposing ourselves to some embarrassment and/or legal problems if we err.

As for importing into the USA, it's generally OK if one has the appropriate permits and they pass inspection. The Lacey Act covers plant materials illegally collected.

And thanks, fan palm, for the Nenga suggestion. There seem to be two species native to southern Thailand, N. macrocarpa and N. pumila var. pachystachya. I can't confirm from available images whether my palm is one of these.

(All this written before Palm Mod's post).

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TomJ

BUMP. 

Is it still alive.

What did it turn out to be?

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cfkingfish

I have a hard time believing it is a Nenga sp. due to the fact that it is growing in full sun so well. Also, midribs, petiole and rachis shapes do not match. These are understory species that have habitats not unlike Chamaedorea. Then again it could just adapt to it, and it is Hawaii. The seed you described would limit it to just N. macrocarpa. 

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hbernstein
On ‎3‎/‎11‎/‎2018‎ ‎4‎:‎27‎:‎39‎, mike in kurtistown said:

Some botanical gardens (I am familiar with Montgomery B. C.) are very careful about getting all necessary permits before doing any collecting.

Botanical gardens are more than careful about proper permitting when accepting wild-collected plants. They can be shut down if the appropriate U.S. agency rules that they have violated the law. There's the instance of a well-known Florida garden that was held in violation due to improper or lack of paperwork for some of the orchids in its collection. This was quite serious and initiated clear collections policies among all U.S. botanical gardens.

Private collectors should know that while discovery and severe penalties are unlikely, collections have been confiscated. On the international level, people have been convicted and jailed. 

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mike in kurtistown

Here's an update and new picture of the palm that is the subject of discussion. It appeared to be reacting badly to the nearly full sun position, so I built a wire structure and kept it under shadecloth while I tried to find a shady position to move it to. Things being normally hectic and lacking good shady locations, it just remained there, with a gradual substitution of lighter shadecloths. It has grown impressively. Finally, I removed the 30 % shadecloth for a few days as a test. I have not put the cloth back now for over a month. It has full sun all day, albeit it is in the depth of winter in rainy, cloudy east Hawaii Island. The plant has three well developed suckers underneath. From online pictures of Nenga species, I really do not see a resemblance to my palm. The orange bucket in the picture is a 5-gal.

5c33a9018c511_unknownKhaoSak_MLM_010719.

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realarch

Mike, here are a few photos of Nenga pumila here in the garden, there certainly seem to be similarities. I don't know if this is var. pachystachya or not. 

Tim

 

P1060933.jpg

P1060935.jpg

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realarch

This one, by the way, is just a small sucker. There are two main stems. The palm is growing in full 'Hilo' sun. It flowers and seeds regularly. 

Tim

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mike in kurtistown

Yes, Tim, there does seem to be strong similarities between my juvenile palm and your sucker. One similarity that I notice is the irregularity of the leaflet width, with narrow ones being next to wider ones. Glad to hear that they do survive in full Hilo sun. Thanks for the info.

 

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