robusta come back after one year El Paso

[Axel Amsterdam]

https://goo.gl/maps/aUcSYNAzg6H2

 

In August 2011 it was still completely defoliated and in 2012 completely regrown. The smaller robusta's on the left all died.

Edited February 25, 2018 by Axel Amsterdam

[Palm crazy]

I wonder why some died and some made a full recovery on the same street. The ones down the street look really good.

https://www.google.nl/maps/@31.7699434,-106.2942784,3a,75y,90h,113.84t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sXavAEki_QmoOxSpUZrEQnA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Edited February 25, 2018 by Palm crazy

[Collectorpalms]

On 2/25/2018 at 3:04 PM, Axel Amsterdam said:

https://goo.gl/maps/aUcSYNAzg6H2

 

In August 2011 it was still completely defoliated and in 2012 completely regrown. The smaller robusta's on the left all died.

If you look closely you can see green on the tall one and a small one on the street, My hope is that smaller one went into decline due to a lack of watering. I noticed that most Washingtonia that lived that were cared for had 15 fronds by August street view. Not many robusta washintonia looking lived, but there were a few...

The multi- trunk European trunk also lived across the street. This leaves me to believe that the desert environment and the relative short nature of the freeze benefited them greatly. SOL central Texas... I am only seeing meds with trunk growth in location above 10F, or protected from wind.

Edited March 23, 2021 by Collectorpalms

[jwitt]

Locals in El Paso reported at the time that robustas that got supplemental moisture in 2011 mostly survived.  

If one was interested, I suggest looking up the precip in El Paso from say March -August of 2011. There you will find the answer.  The wet chihuahuan desert was a fraction of the dry Mojave for that period.

Even colder zone Albuquerque major freezes are but a fraction of  warmer zone central Texas major freezes.  Air properties(high elevation and sunshine(solar radiation). 

On a side note, I have a multi trunked med palm that survived -10f unprotected(lost 1 trunk) in 2011.  It lives today.

Yes, the freeze duration is quite different.

Edited March 23, 2021 by jwitt

[jwitt]

On 2/25/2018 at 2:04 PM, Axel Amsterdam said:

https://goo.gl/maps/aUcSYNAzg6H2

 

In August 2011 it was still completely defoliated and in 2012 completely regrown. The smaller robusta's on the left all died.

Now if the robustas were in the lawns in the neighborhood............

No rain in El Paso til July(when in July?)! Albuquerque's drought was even more severe with like .18" total til late August.  Midland TX was about the same as Albuquerque! No palm survived without something supplemental unless there was an underground source.

Here is El Paso precip monthly totals for 2011 starting with January on the left.

 

[jwitt]

On 2/25/2018 at 2:04 PM, Axel Amsterdam said:

https://goo.gl/maps/aUcSYNAzg6H2

 

In August 2011 it was still completely defoliated and in 2012 completely regrown. The smaller robusta's on the left all died.

Cool you found the pre and post Google images. What amazed me was the survival rate of the  CIDP's.  Less common palm but easily found. 

[PricklyPearSATC]

2 hours ago, jwitt said:

Cool you found the pre and post Google images. What amazed me was the survival rate of the  CIDP's.  Less common palm but easily found. 

Aye....this reminds me of when someone in my neighborhood planted a Montezuma Cypress next to their house!

https://goo.gl/maps/7oCWKHVBSSU1UsBL6

Edited March 23, 2021 by PricklyPearSATC

[Axel Amsterdam]

13 hours ago, Collectorpalms said:

 

The multi- trunk European trunk also lived across the street. This leaves me to believe that the desert environment and the relative short nature of the freeze benefited them greatly. SOL central Texas... I am only seeing meds with trunk growth in location above 10F, or protected from wind.

A bit further down I found this example of 3 Med fan palms where the trunk on the left was heavily damaged and died and the one on the left was untouched.  

https://goo.gl/maps/ANV9tQ7yvZsuo8XCA

 

[Axel Amsterdam]

5 hours ago, jwitt said:

Cool you found the pre and post Google images. What amazed me was the survival rate of the  CIDP's.  Less common palm but easily found. 

Yes they are amazingly bud hardy and the survivors look really good again in El Paso. Still I noticed some of them started regrowth by putting out smaller fronds for a while. So the bud must have been damaged slightly but not lethally.  

Edited March 23, 2021 by Axel Amsterdam

[UK_Palms]

I am surprised to see how slow the growth rates are in El Paso, especially for Filifera. A lot of them have barely grown much between the 2007 - 2019 street view images, given that it is a 12 year lapse. Both Filifera and Filibusta hybrids appear to grow quite a bit quicker in London and southern England. I don't know whether that is due to them getting more water and perhaps less severe freezes in southern England, maybe...?

I know they can get pretty cold there during winter, but I really would have expected Filifera to grow a lot quicker in a place like El Paso, with all that heat, sunshine and dry weather. Well obviously not. Even the CIDP's appear pretty slow there too, but I'm guessing that is because of the constant winter freezes setting them back...?

I was also horrified to see these two 'telephone poles' in a front yard further down that street in 2012. Robusta's no doubt. They have since been removed and replaced by more, smaller washies. Hopefully Filifera's this time. I do love the fact that so many palms are planted everywhere around El Paso though. I wish they took that same approach in London nowadays...

[jwitt]

A zero, a three, and a seven. That was the consecutive nightly low these palms saw in El Paso.  A seldom mentioned fact!

[jwitt]

1 hour ago, UK_Palms said:

I am surprised to see how slow the growth rates are in El Paso, especially for Filifera. A lot of them have barely grown much between the 2007 - 2019 street view images, given that it is a 12 year lapse. Both Filifera and Filibusta hybrids appear to grow quite a bit quicker in London and southern England. I don't know whether that is due to them getting more water and perhaps less severe freezes in southern England, maybe...?

I know they can get pretty cold there during winter, but I really would have expected Filifera to grow a lot quicker in a place like El Paso, with all that heat, sunshine and dry weather. Well obviously not. Even the CIDP's appear pretty slow there too, but I'm guessing that is because of the constant winter freezes setting them back...?

I was also horrified to see these two 'telephone poles' in a front yard further down that street in 2012. Robusta's no doubt. They have since been removed and replaced by more, smaller washies. Hopefully Filifera's this time. I do love the fact that so many palms are planted everywhere around El Paso though. I wish they took that same approach in London nowadays...

See that mostly dead tree in that lawn? Pure picture of death by drought. Those palms were also cut.  So they were probably deemed dead by a professional and cut. 

Leads me to question why  only cut and not removed originally. Maybe they thought they might survive. Turns out some did survive multiple night near zero! 

[NBTX11]

1 hour ago, UK_Palms said:

I am surprised to see how slow the growth rates are in El Paso, especially for Filifera. A lot of them have barely grown much between the 2007 - 2019 street view images, given that it is a 12 year lapse. Both Filifera and Filibusta hybrids appear to grow quite a bit quicker in London and southern England. I don't know whether that is due to them getting more water and perhaps less severe freezes in southern England, maybe...?

I know they can get pretty cold there during winter, but I really would have expected Filifera to grow a lot quicker in a place like El Paso, with all that heat, sunshine and dry weather. Well obviously not. Even the CIDP's appear pretty slow there too, but I'm guessing that is because of the constant winter freezes setting them back...?

I was also horrified to see these two 'telephone poles' in a front yard further down that street in 2012. Robusta's no doubt. They have since been removed and replaced by more, smaller washies. Hopefully Filifera's this time. I do love the fact that so many palms are planted everywhere around El Paso though. I wish they took that same approach in London nowadays...

In Central and South Texas, (Austin and San Antonio), Filifera grow extremely fast, as do CIDP.  I can assure you, much faster than the UK, due the extremely long and hot growing season.  I do not have an experience with El Paso, so I don't know if they are slower there.  We do get much more rainfall than El Paso, so maybe there is something to that.

I personally had a Filifera go from 1 foot tall to about 25-30 feet tall in 16 or 17 years.

The Filifera in this photo was planted in 2005 as a seedling, essentially. 

Edited March 24, 2021 by NBTX11

[UK_Palms]

@NBTX11 Wow, your washies look great! How have they fared after the freeze? I know you guys didn't get anywhere near as bad as places like DFW and College Station, right? I don't know what your ultimate low was, but I'm guessing your Filifera is okay and recovering now? Do you think the Robusta/Filibusta will make it as well, since I seem to remember you saying on here, just before the freeze, that you expect to lose both of them.

And yes, you guys have a much longer and better growing season than I do here. You're both warmer and sunnier for sure. Up here at 51N the sun is nowhere near as intense and our growing season is relatively short. I'm right out in the sticks, in a tiny village, and my last frost here is usually around 20th April, but we had one on 5th May last year. First frost is typically around 20th October, but wasn't until 10th November last year. So our 'growing season' only really runs for about 6 months here. It's pretty short.

However, being situated on an island, detached from the European continent, and being in the path of the jet/gulf streams, prevents any serious cold like what Texas just got whacked with. That's why we have some 30 foot washies all the way up here at 51N. We're at the same latitude as Winnipeg and Saskatoon in Canada, unbelievably. The Washies over here in southern England, especially Filifera, may actually be as fast as those in central Texas and they appear to be a lot faster than El Paso...

Robusta's in Richmond, London in 2012...

Again in 2020...

 

Earl's Court, London Robusta in 2014...

Again in 2019 (5 years growth)...

 

Ventnor Botanic Gardens in 2010 (Filibusta's I think)

Ventnor Botanic Gardens 2020

 

Filibusta hybrid? in Wimbledon, London back in 2009...

Then in 2019...

And a year later in 2020... (thought this was a Filifera for years, but I'm now thinking it is a Filibusta hybrid?)...

 

Filibusta hybrid near London in 2009...

Again in 2020... (2 foot of trunk a year maybe?)

 

Barry's north London Filifera in 2000...

Barry's Filifera in 2019...

 

Canvey Filifera in 2009

10 years later in 2019...

 

Not sure how this compares with central Texas growth rates, but I've been looking at El Paso on street view and their washies definitely aren't as quick growing as southeastern England. It must have something to do with the rainfall amounts and the lack of severe cold, despite us having a shorter growing season. 

I think we're going to start seeing more and more washies planted over here in the coming years. I certainly can't see the big Filifera's getting knocked out now, of which there are actually quite a few around these days. There's definitely more big Filifera's around than big Robusta's in our neck of the woods. 

[NBTX11]

19 minutes ago, UK_Palms said:

@NBTX11 Wow, your washies look great! How have they fared after the freeze? I know you guys didn't get anywhere near as bad as places like DFW and College Station, right? I don't know what your ultimate low was, but I'm guessing your Filifera is okay and recovering now? Do you think the Robusta/Filibusta will make it as well, since I seem to remember you saying on here, just before the freeze, that you expect to lose both of them.

And yes, you guys have a much longer and better growing season than I do here. You're both warmer and sunnier for sure. Up here at 51N the sun is nowhere near as intense and our growing season is relatively short. I'm right out in the sticks, in a tiny village, and my last frost here is usually around 20th April, but we had one on 5th May last year. First frost is typically around 20th October, but wasn't until 10th November last year. So our 'growing season' only really runs for about 6 months here. It's pretty short.

However, being situated on an island, detached from the European continent, and being in the path of the jet/gulf streams, prevents any serious cold like what Texas just got whacked with. That's why we have some 30 foot washies all the way up here at 51N. We're at the same latitude as Winnipeg and Saskatoon in Canada, unbelievably. The Washies over here in southern England, especially Filifera, may actually be as fast as those in central Texas and they appear to be a lot faster than El Paso...

Robusta's in Richmond, London in 2012...

Again in 2020...

 

Earl's Court, London Robusta in 2014...

Again in 2019 (5 years growth)...

 

Ventnor Botanic Gardens in 2010 (Filibusta's I think)

Ventnor Botanic Gardens 2020

 

Filibusta hybrid? in Wimbledon, London back in 2009...

Then in 2019...

And a year later in 2020... (thought this was a Filifera for years, but I'm now thinking it is a Filibusta hybrid?)...

 

Filibusta hybrid near London in 2009...

Again in 2020... (2 foot of trunk a year maybe?)

 

Barry's north London Filifera in 2000...

Barry's Filifera in 2019...

 

Canvey Filifera in 2009

10 years later in 2019...

 

Not sure how this compares with central Texas growth rates, but I've been looking at El Paso on street view and their washies definitely aren't as quick growing as southeastern England. It must have something to do with the rainfall amounts and the lack of severe cold, despite us having a shorter growing season. 

I think we're going to start seeing more and more washies planted over here in the coming years. I certainly can't see the big Filifera's getting knocked out now, of which there are actually quite a few around these days. There's definitely more big Filifera's around than big Robusta's in our neck of the woods. 

Those washies look great and are very impressive.  Couple points for you.  Extreme cold is rare here.  It's not like we are seeing this every year.  This was anywhere from a 30 to a 100 year freeze, depending on whether you look at ultimate lows, or or the length of the freeze.  Many winters we are a zone 10, essentially  (Central Houston is a zone 10 many winters), while San Antonio drops to maybe -2C (28 or 29F) many winters.  Secondly, the amount of heat here is huge.  Today was around 30C for example, and we are still in March.  This is not abnormal.  We are running our air conditioners non stop to keep cool on days like today.  The point is this.  The type of cold we saw in Feb is a once or twice a century type event.  It's not that cold here (usually).  I've been living in San Antonio since 2004, and this was by far the coldest I have seen it get.  By at least 7 degrees F.

Having said that, in San Antonio, TX, there are actually 50, 60 or 70 foot tall Washingtonias (or were, we don't know how many survived).  Perhaps you saw the Riverwalk thread in San Antonio.  They can get to great heights, true skydusters.  The palms in S. TX, especially deep south TX would be more like the South of France or coastal Spain.  I could be wrong about that. That is just my general uneducated impression.  Of course they are probably more vulnerable to cold than those locations, I am speaking in terms of the heights of palms.  Keep in mind Texas is huge.  You go from essentially no palms in far North Texas, to a palm paradise in far South Texas, with it's millions of Washingtonias.   

To answer your question, My Filifera are completely fine, they have put out several green fronds.  I am still in a wait and see mode for the Robusta.  I do not yet know if they survived. 

Your photos or UK palms are very impressive.  I was unaware there were that many palms there until I researched the area. 

[Axel Amsterdam]

https://goo.gl/maps/o8MEMD3Niost1mEb6

 

What I found surprising is that these washies looked filibusta when planted (fronds not too deeply cut, very green). Only to turn out to be true fat filifera's a couple of years later.  

[Axel Amsterdam]

https://goo.gl/maps/s5fYbw8ZhPZNAJz6A

 

Robusta/Filibusta's heavily damaged, chamaerops undamaged. The chamaerops are very slow growing though. 

[Advective]

2 hours ago, Axel Amsterdam said:

https://goo.gl/maps/o8MEMD3Niost1mEb6

 

What I found surprising is that these washies looked filibusta when planted (fronds not too deeply cut, very green). Only to turn out to be true fat filifera's a couple of years later.  

I've given up on identifying Washingtonia at a young age. I go by mature trunk dimensions and cold hardiness only now

[Mr.SamuraiSword]

Windmill dead after 2011, wonder what killed it, could It have been cold? Nearby filfera look great.

https://www.google.nl/maps/@31.7673723,-106.294779,3a,26y,351.15h,92.78t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1swGJTtjBFxjPzDCt-mQf-ZA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Very dwarfed leaves after recovery on Robusta

https://www.google.nl/maps/@31.7648565,-106.2862956,3a,51.8y,246.29h,117.58t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sRgy6eDL-UFBTXDsRestTRQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Sabals and Euros look fine, 

https://www.google.nl/maps/@31.7666456,-106.2843098,3a,30.2y,244.53h,85.18t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sYn-IvxVhWHZQxO-eG3p64Q!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

https://www.google.nl/maps/@31.7698877,-106.2827901,3a,18.9y,264.64h,87.87t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1saN_wxI4RaOx3yhZh1G7xNg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

heartbreaking lawn, all dead, some lawns all robusta survived....  How different could the temps have been?

https://www.google.nl/maps/@31.7667601,-106.2840894,3a,75y,47.13h,95.22t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sC0tJ1fMmUq-O6_OpmGESIg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Wrapped queens

https://www.google.nl/maps/@31.7597042,-106.308999,3a,25.9y,45.36h,91.73t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sUjXnz5S19R_EWsgpjyOC-A!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

surprised at the lack of Dactylifera.

[Collectorpalms]

A few random Washingtonia appear to have put on a few leaves and later declined. That is a real gut punch. 
It has happened to me with a couple queens.

Edited March 25, 2021 by Collectorpalms

[jwitt]

queensthqueenst

7 hours ago, Collectorpalms said:

A few random Washingtonia appear to have put on a few leaves and later declined. That is a real gut punch. 
It has happened to me with a couple queens.

Absolutely no precipition for six months surely did not help. 

Also, after the big freeze in Feb,2011,  December of 2011 saw zonal lows here in ABQ(around zero degrees).  Not sure if El Paso saw the same.  

Both of these anomalies could explain the continued demise. And also the original freeze. 

At the time(2011), robustas had not been documented to have survived temperatures that El Paso saw. And at the time of the freeze, most talk was that was the end of robustas(and most other palms) in El Paso, including, on this board.

So El Paso was in the same boat that College Station is in now. Palm apocalypse with no hope.  Turned out in the end, many good surprises happened, hopefully the same for your area.

Just hope you don't  see zonal lows this fall(early December)!

[Axel Amsterdam]

https://goo.gl/maps/ihNWyNQSGvs7teDG9

 

Found these 2 large Sylvestris?. Quite an unusual sight in El Paso.

[Axel Amsterdam]

https://goo.gl/maps/dfkVNqiqAB9qtRbA7

 

Filifera with Jubaea sized trunk