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The Steve

Sabal Growth Rate

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The Steve

I planted this as a big boxed palm, 3-4 years ago.  It's grown much faster than I had expected.  Photos maybe spaced a year apart?  It's about 30 inches at the base, with boots.

59e6b6456c581_DirtHoleforSabal.thumb.jpg

post-7959-0-00153200-1385594633_thumb.jp

post-7959-0-41741100-1385594533_thumb.jp

IMAG1012.thumb.jpg.ab3641ea3848af903cbb0

IMAG1214.thumb.jpg.1511399c88a7d5d6911d2

IMAG1638.thumb.jpg.9ae468f9079025f87dec6

 

Bonus Palm

S. Mauritiformis.

 

Planted a few years ago, for a neighbor.  This thing has been a surprising grower, as well.  Planed as a big 5 gallon, maybe 2 years ago, it now has 4' wide (1.3 meter?) fans.

IMAG1564.thumb.jpg.2c5ca1025ad82251f9c08

IMAG1565.thumb.jpg.34880bef8da8deeae62ae

 

 

Edited by The Steve
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Tracy
1 hour ago, The Steve said:

IMAG1565.thumb.jpg.34880bef8da8deeae62ae

 

 

That Sabal mauritiiformis will keep putting out taller and taller fronds, but it will take several more years before you see any trunk.  Once it does trunk though, it will start moving up consistently.

20170903-104A7441.jpg

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Phoenikakias

Which sp is supposed to be the first exemplary?

 

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Missi

I just love S. mauritiiformis! It has such a presence to it!

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nachocarl

Dang Steve, that first sabal is a rocket! Nice looking too!

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The Steve
12 hours ago, Phoenikakias said:

Which sp is supposed to be the first exemplary?

 

I'd be interested in knowing, what you think it might be?  Lots can be excluded at this point, but it's never flowered.  Lots of clues.

IMAG1641.thumb.jpg.bceb010a54c1a2ee3c459

IMAG1640.thumb.jpg.f291c7b90696876a2bd85

IMAG1642.thumb.jpg.0fdaed2e0dea432b731be

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TexasColdHardyPalms

Its not a palmetto, blackburnia/bermuda, uresana, causarium or tropical sabal.  Speed, size  and picture wise it looks like a riverside or mexicana. Seeds make sabal id much easier. 

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The Steve
2 hours ago, TexasColdHardyPalms said:

Its not a palmetto, blackburnia/bermuda, uresana, causarium or tropical sabal.  Speed, size  and picture wise it looks like a riverside or mexicana. Seeds make sabal id much easier. 

I think that it may be a S. mexicana.  I did buy it in Riverside, though...

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Phoenikakias

Don Hodel suggested that also the inflorescence proportions are valuable features for identification. That said, he reported that many Sabal specimens on California are hybrids. 

Edited by Phoenikakias

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Phoenikakias
2 hours ago, TexasColdHardyPalms said:

Its not a palmetto, blackburnia/bermuda, uresana, causarium or tropical sabal.  Speed, size  and picture wise it looks like a riverside or mexicana. Seeds make sabal id much easier. 

What existing or lacking features made you exclude bermudana? 

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Kris

It does look like SRS(Sabal River Side).And does not look like a Sabal Mexicana/Texas Sabal.

The palm is a beauty.Massive trunk and thick broad fronds...Super :greenthumb:

Love,

Kris.

 

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TexasColdHardyPalms
5 hours ago, Phoenikakias said:

What existing or lacking features made you exclude bermudana? 

Bermuda has a lot of white tomentum and the leaf bases are different in the way it rips the boots. Hard to explain, easier with pictures. 

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TexasColdHardyPalms
4 hours ago, Kris said:

It does look like SRS(Sabal River Side).And does not look like a Sabal Mexicana/Texas Sabal.

The palm is a beauty.Massive trunk and thick broad fronds...Super :greenthumb:

Love,

Kris.

 

I disagree, Mexicana and riverside look almost identical at this age. Seed size/shape and inflorescense will shed more light on the id. Only a few more years left to this mystery. 

I also do not know what rosei look like at this age either so that may be a possibility.  

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Pete in Paradise Hills
3 hours ago, TexasColdHardyPalms said:

Bermuda has a lot of white tomentum and the leaf bases are different in the way it rips the boots. Hard to explain, easier with pictures. 

Bermudana is bluish.

 

 

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TexasColdHardyPalms
2 hours ago, Pete in Paradise Hills said:

Bermudana is bluish.

 

 

11 hours ago, Kris said:

It does look like SRS(Sabal River Side).And does not look like a Sabal Mexicana/Texas Sabal.

The palm is a beauty.Massive trunk and thick broad fronds...Super :greenthumb:

Love,

Kris.

 

Riverside and most mexicana in our area have a nice blue tint as well, some moreso than the bermuda/blackburnia that i have. 

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sonoranfans

this large sabal cannot be differentiated without inflorescence and or fruit.  It is a big juvenile sabal with thick, long petioles so perhaps you can rule out the smaller ones like palmetto.  Bluish tint comes and goes, Ive seen it present and absent in established palms I grew from the same mother, let alone the same species.  the heavy petioles and largeish costpalmate leaves suggest it could be domingensis, riverside or another carribean sabal.  I have not seen this size mexicana, perhaps it could be, though what I have read is they have shorter , but still thick petioles.  In california, it could be almost any of then as far as available supply.

It looks very similar to my domingensis at that stage a several years back.  But the leaf size and look could change before that one is mature.  The petioles on my domingensis are 7' long or so and its crown is thinner but a couple feet wider than my 2 bismarckia.

Edited by sonoranfans
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Pete in Paradise Hills
3 hours ago, TexasColdHardyPalms said:

Riverside and most mexicana in our area have a nice blue tint as well, some moreso than the bermuda/blackburnia that i have. 

At any rate, Steve's sabal and my Bermudana, about 12 miles apart in San Diego, don't look like the same species...

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The Steve

I hadn't thought of rosei, since it came from a big box nursery.  But, that could be a possibility.  I ruled out the linugle bearing species, since I've seen many small casuarium/domingensis types around here, that already exhibited such.  But, perhaps that trait will appear later.  

Pictures (as described)

S. "riverside"

 

58731d7306513_SabalriversideMorley1.jpg.58731d750a372_SabalriversideMorley2.jpg.

 

S. bermudana

IMG_4486.thumb.jpg.30fab496e430d38e61c8eIMG_2104.thumb.jpg.0af02dec42dfc92aabca8IMG_4486.thumb.jpg.e4e9946672e1e56e4dfc4

 

S. uresana

IMG_4265.thumb.jpg.575bfc8a53454bdbdae53IMG_4240.thumb.jpg.12b30f6b93d0205c2f43f

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Phoenikakias
On 20/10/2017, 2:02:04, TexasColdHardyPalms said:

I disagree, Mexicana and riverside look almost identical at this age. Seed size/shape and inflorescense will shed more light on the id. Only a few more years left to this mystery. 

I also do not know what rosei look like at this age either so that may be a possibility.  

 

15 hours ago, The Steve said:

I hadn't thought of rosei, since it came from a big box nursery.  But, that could be a possibility.  I ruled out the linugle bearing species, since I've seen many small casuarium/domingensis types around here, that already exhibited such.  But, perhaps that trait will appear later.  

Pictures (as described)

S. "riverside"

 

58731d7306513_SabalriversideMorley1.jpg.58731d750a372_SabalriversideMorley2.jpg.

 

S. bermudana

IMG_4486.thumb.jpg.30fab496e430d38e61c8eIMG_2104.thumb.jpg.0af02dec42dfc92aabca8IMG_4486.thumb.jpg.e4e9946672e1e56e4dfc4

 

S. uresana

IMG_4265.thumb.jpg.575bfc8a53454bdbdae53IMG_4240.thumb.jpg.12b30f6b93d0205c2f43f

No way imo that it could be rosei. Steve's specimen has a palmen clearly og about half the lamina's size, while rosei has a palmen of about one fourth. Here is a plant of mine bought as rosei. Never mind about drooping leaf tips, garden lies in a quite windy location. 

IMG_20171020_154905.thumb.jpg.17c2122075IMG_20171020_154942.thumb.jpg.4ea5590b99IMG_20171020_154955.thumb.jpg.ffe3a4205c

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Phoenikakias
22 hours ago, sonoranfans said:

 

22 hours ago, sonoranfans said:

this large sabal cannot be differentiated without inflorescence and or fruit.  It is a big juvenile sabal with thick, long petioles so perhaps you can rule out the smaller ones like palmetto.  Bluish tint comes and goes, Ive seen it present and absent in established palms I grew from the same mother, let alone the same species.  the heavy petioles and largeish costpalmate leaves suggest it could be domingensis, riverside or another carribean sabal.  I have not seen this size mexicana, perhaps it could be, though what I have read is they have shorter , but still thick petioles.  In california, it could be almost any of then as far as available supply.

It looks very similar to my domingensis at that stage a several years back.  But the leaf size and look could change before that one is mature.  The petioles on my domingensis are 7' long or so and its crown is thinner but a couple feet wider than my 2 bismarckia.

On 20/10/2017, 2:02:04, TexasColdHardyPalms said:

 

 

15 hours ago, The Steve said:

 

Structure of petioles on Steve's specimen looks really close to the one of the petioles on my causiarum. 

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Phoenikakias
On 20/10/2017, 11:15:14, sonoranfans said:

 

On 20/10/2017, 11:15:14, sonoranfans said:

this large sabal cannot be differentiated without inflorescence and or fruit.  It is a big juvenile sabal with thick, long petioles so perhaps you can rule out the smaller ones like palmetto.  Bluish tint comes and goes, Ive seen it present and absent in established palms I grew from the same mother, let alone the same species.  the heavy petioles and largeish costpalmate leaves suggest it could be domingensis, riverside or another carribean sabal.  I have not seen this size mexicana, perhaps it could be, though what I have read is they have shorter , but still thick petioles.  In california, it could be almost any of then as far as available supply.

It looks very similar to my domingensis at that stage a several years back.  But the leaf size and look could change before that one is mature.  The petioles on my domingensis are 7' long or so and its crown is thinner but a couple feet wider than my 2 bismarckia.

On 20/10/2017, 2:02:04, TexasColdHardyPalms said:

 

 

On 21/10/2017, 6:22:40, The Steve said:

IMG_20171020_155022.thumb.jpg.ad42b9f4e9IMG_20171020_155122.thumb.jpg.894a6fc4ebIMG_20171020_155134.thumb.jpg.ada8e1be7d

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TexasColdHardyPalms

Those last pictures clearly illustrate why Causarium and dominguensis were ruled out.  Steve has a riverside or mexicana. They both look too much alike at this point for me to differentiate.   Leaf and petiole size aren't a great way to identify sabals at this age as shade/sun intensity have major effects of the species. Ive seen heavily shaded juvenile mexicana with canopies larger than causarium. 

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sonoranfans

 Here is a thread with riversides grown in california(posts 2,3) vs texas(10 by mjff) the differences in petiole length for full sun palms is remarkable.  the texas riversides have short petioles and compact crown and are grown in much colder winter temps during its life.  The california riversides are domingensis level size, huge open crowns.  I have grown multiple palms in arizona and in florida and the same species didnt look the same.   http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/40518-who-can-tell-us-more-about-sabal-riverside/

Not sure that palm wont develop ligules.  For some reason my domingensis developed ligules after it trunked, not before.  Riverside has long petioles like domingensis when grown in california.

 

 

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TexasColdHardyPalms

Sabals are tricky.  I remember seeing the first two riversides in Martin's post late last year and they have grown quite a bit since that 2014 photo. That first one is a very large palm now.

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Josh-O

it looks like S. Mexicana to me.

nicely grow as well!!

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sonoranfans
16 hours ago, TexasColdHardyPalms said:

Sabals are tricky.  I remember seeing the first two riversides in Martin's post late last year and they have grown quite a bit since that 2014 photo. That first one is a very large palm now.

Interesting that those palms have reportedly grown larger.  They were trunking in 2014, and looked almost nothing like the california grown riversides which are long in  petiole.  I still stand by the differences in climate being enough to change the appearance, making ID harder.  At one point here some of us palm talkers thought that you could tell a causiarum from a domingensis by the presence of ligules.  Of course taxonomists never supported that kind of differentiation and required orders of branching fluorescence to differentialte the two.  Taxonomists also do not identify allt he "species" of sabal that hobbyists do.  

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Phoenikakias
10 hours ago, sonoranfans said:

Interesting that those palms have reportedly grown larger.  They were trunking in 2014, and looked almost nothing like the california grown riversides which are long in  petiole.  I still stand by the differences in climate being enough to change the appearance, making ID harder.  At one point here some of us palm talkers thought that you could tell a causiarum from a domingensis by the presence of ligules.  Of course taxonomists never supported that kind of differentiation and required orders of branching fluorescence to differentialte the two.  Taxonomists also do not identify allt he "species" of sabal that hobbyists do.  

Have I missed something!? Ain't the ligules still a differentiating feature? 

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sonoranfans
13 hours ago, Phoenikakias said:

Have I missed something!? Ain't the ligules still a differentiating feature? 

no Taxonomist I know of has attributed ligules as a differentiating feature.  This was more of a palm talkers claim that many either believed or still believe.  Scott Zona in his sabal monograph stated the orders of branching of the inflorescence is the only way to reliably differentiate causiarum and domingensis.  My domingensis should flower in the next few years as its trunk is getting really fat.   It has ligules up to 2' long, some still green.  Many Sabals are pretty difficult to identify,  

 

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Kris

Dear Steve,

Your Pet 'Bull Mastif' looks so cute.And i love him.last time i was seeing only the sabal in discussion.:)

Love,

Kris.

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Moose

It's nice and healthy looking whatever sabal it is :interesting:

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The Steve

IMAG1829.thumb.jpg.7f4132455513a3e467138

I guess we'll be able to figure this thing out soon.

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Phoenikakias

Mexicana should usually flower before trunk formation, if I remember correctly. 

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TexasColdHardyPalms
11 hours ago, Phoenikakias said:

Mexicana should usually flower before trunk formation, if I remember correctly. 

Not the ones around here.  Riversides flower early here. 

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sonoranfans

Its either causiarum or domingensis, its just too big to be mexicana or maritima.  The fat trunk and heavy petioles say causiarum.  My sabal, labelled "domingensis", turned out to be causiarum when it set seed last year at 1-2 years younger, but this one is in california.  My palm was planted the same time as this one, but as a strap leaf seedling ~3 gallon size.  I'm sure the neighbors see that monster and are duly impressed.  Very well grown, steve!

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The Steve
8 hours ago, sonoranfans said:

Its either causiarum or domingensis, its just too big to be mexicana or maritima.  The fat trunk and heavy petioles say causiarum.  My sabal, labelled "domingensis", turned out to be causiarum when it set seed last year at 1-2 years younger, but this one is in california.  My palm was planted the same time as this one, but as a strap leaf seedling ~3 gallon size.  I'm sure the neighbors see that monster and are duly impressed.  Very well grown, steve!

Thanks, Tom.

You just don't see so many Sabals out here, unfortunately.  Here's just a pic for fun.  The width can be estimated, by looking at the untrimmed, right side.

 

IMAG1830.thumb.jpg.c01e0657311edfd141b50IMAG1697.thumb.jpg.ac439d5c9b065ca2732a4

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The Steve

It's about 50% wider than my Bizzie, at roughly the same stage in life, but the Bizzie has bigger leaves.

 

IMAG1832.thumb.jpg.9d0d88af50071510ac1e2

 

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sonoranfans

Steve, a palm that is wider than a biz is a huge palm.  And yours is nice and thick in crown.  My 20' overall bizzies have bigger leaves(8'+across vs 6-7') but shorter petioles( by a foot) than my causiarum.  The causiarum also has a little thicker trunk along with a slightly wider crown.  I was a little surprised when my causiarum(planted as a 3 gal) caught up to the (2) bizzies which were 6-9'overall when the seedling causiarum when into the ground.   Your place looks like it has a future with some nice palmy shade areas!

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The Steve

So, here’s what we ended up with.

 

CEC9CBC9-A1BC-4586-A3E5-A3AE9AA8135F.thu53F48B14-D62D-42BC-90A5-7FC0DE77144C.thu

 

 

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Phoenikakias
On 5/5/2018, 8:18:45, sonoranfans said:

Its either causiarum or domingensis, its just too big to be mexicana or maritima.  The fat trunk and heavy petioles say causiarum.  My sabal, labelled "domingensis", turned out to be causiarum when it set seed last year at 1-2 years younger, but this one is in california.  My palm was planted the same time as this one, but as a strap leaf seedling ~3 gallon size.  I'm sure the neighbors see that monster and are duly impressed.  Very well grown, steve!

 

21 minutes ago, The Steve said:

So, here’s what we ended up with.

 

CEC9CBC9-A1BC-4586-A3E5-A3AE9AA8135F.thu53F48B14-D62D-42BC-90A5-7FC0DE77144C.thu

 

 

At last it will become able a final identification. 

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The Steve

I’ll have to track Dr. Zona’s Key down - I think I have it somewhere.  The pics look similar, but the top pic is from after the bees pollinated it.  It smells great.

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