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Brian F. Austin

Sabal x Brazoriensis

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tlow
9 minutes ago, Will said:

How hardy are they as strap leaf seedlings? I am expecting mine to get their first leaf by mid May. Can i plant them outside in a zone 7b/8a already or should i wait for them to get a little bigger?

This will enrage some of the establishment here, but you are just fine planting them.  I'm in zone 8a, and I planted them with just strap leaves last year very early in the year.  They went through what would be considered a really prolonged, and cold, icey winter here in DFW.  They ALL went through multiple mornings here at a maximum low of 17.1, couple nights of 18-19, one 38 hour below freezing literally sitting at 22-23F for the entire time almost, and today we are getting some chances of ice\snow but then tomorrow it gets warm, and sunny again hopefully for good this year.

I took the advice of some old timers here last year NOT to plant anytime after May\June, which honestly, has turned out to be overly cautious and rubbish.  If you are in a solid zone for these palms, 7a\7b+ you can plant nearly darn near year round.  In zone 8a, for sure, anytime of the year.  I literally planted barely one year old sabal minor seedlings with two leaves, they are no taller than 6-8" in the ground, then we got that 36 hour cold event.  Absolutely no browning, burning, nothing and that was weeks ago.  They are ALL putting our new spears and look great.

I can't speak to other less hardy species, but Sabals, by and large, are tanks, bulletproof in most area, and with that, ignore the old timer, and logic people will give you because it applies to weakling feather palms and washies.  Stop with the protection, the wrapping, the lights, all of that crap.  none of it is needed.  Absolutely, none depending on your zone obviously.  I'm not advocating this works in IL, or Alaska, much less some place like Ottawa, Canada.

@teddytn Can attest to this too being up in TN where I am in North Texas.  Two different zones but same experiences.

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GoatLockerGuns
1 hour ago, tlow said:

you are just fine planting them.

Generally speaking, I concur.  I have found Sabal minor to be very cold hardy as strap leaf seedlings, as are Serenoa repens by the way (at least the green form).  I had strap leaf plantings of both, as well as a strap leaf Sabal mexicana, that survived some pretty serious wet freezing conditions below 10F (-12C) with no damage whatsoever.  They took it like champs, and kept on pushing spears and growing.  Sabal x brazoriensis grow along side Sabal minor in their natural habitat, so I would assume similar results.  I would caution, however, about what the term "strap leaf palm" means in the context of Sabal spsSabal sps. are generally slow growing, and can remain as "strap leaf palms" from right after germination up until 3+ years.  I personally do not plant my very young Sabal minor with strap leaves (i.e., less than a year old and such) in ground.  I usually wait until they have at least three or four solid strap leaves before planting outdoors.  I have also found that planting Sabal sps. as strap leaves will usually make them grow faster (albeit, only slightly more) than leaving them in a pot for the same period of time.

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tlow
1 minute ago, GoatLockerGuns said:

Generally speaking, I concur.  I have found Sabal minor to be very cold hardy as strap leaf seedlings, as are Serenoa repens by the way (at least the green form).  I had strap leaf plantings of both, as well as a strap leaf Sabal mexicana, that survived some pretty serious wet freezing conditions below 10F (-12C) with no damage whatsoever.  They took it like champs, and kept on pushing spears and growing.  I would caution, however, about what the term "strap leaf palm" means in the context of Sabal spsSabal sps. are generally slow growing, and can remain as "strap leaf palms" from right after germination up until 3+ years.  I personally do not plant my very young Sabal minor with strap leaves (i.e., less than a year old and such) in ground.  I usually wait until they have at least three or four solid strap leaves before planting outdoors.  I have also found that planting Sabal sps. as strap leaves will usually make them grow faster (albeit, only slightly more) than leaving them in a pot for the same period of time.

Agreed but I do think the sooner you can get them in the ground the better..  Like I said I now have at least one or two dozen Sabal Minors in the ground, who have gone through ALL of this cold weather provided, and not even kidding they barely have two single leaves on them.  They are as young as can be.  I also planted a S. Minor var. Louisiana that doesn't even have a full single leaf and it took cold like an absolute champ, and pushed the spear that was there much higher in a week.  People are too delicate with Sabals by and large.  They are not foxtails, washies, and other less hardy baby palms.  I did try four W. Filiferas that were a few years old, with palmate leaves out last spring, and after the 17.1F morning, then 18F a few weeks later, they got completely fried... fried, done, gone, and now mostly replaced, but the Sabals, from baby size, to big S. Lisas (3G) haven't even flinched.  They're ready for spring, and ready to explode.

Sabals.. GET THEM IN THE GROUND ASAP!  Stop hesitating everyone.

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GoatLockerGuns
3 minutes ago, tlow said:

They are as young as can be.

Less than one year old?

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Will
4 minutes ago, tlow said:

Agreed but I do think the sooner you can get them in the ground the better..  Like I said I now have at least one or two dozen Sabal Minors in the ground, who have gone through ALL of this cold weather provided, and not even kidding they barely have two single leaves on them.  They are as young as can be.  I also planted a S. Minor var. Louisiana that doesn't even have a full single leaf and it took cold like an absolute champ, and pushed the spear that was there much higher in a week.  People are too delicate with Sabals by and large.  They are not foxtails, washies, and other less hardy baby palms.  I did try four W. Filiferas that were a few years old, with palmate leaves out last spring, and after the 17.1F morning, then 18F a few weeks later, they got completely fried... fried, done, gone, and now mostly replaced, but the Sabals, from baby size, to big S. Lisas (3G) haven't even flinched.  They're ready for spring, and ready to explode.

Sabals.. GET THEM IN THE GROUND ASAP!  Stop hesitating everyone.

Well then i am gonna plant my Sabal minor outside tomorrow and toss some brazoriensis seeds around the garden^^

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tlow
2 minutes ago, GoatLockerGuns said:

Less than one year old?

The minors are sold as one year (palmpei) and these I have dozens outside now through multiple awful cold events (17.1F and above with snow, ice, hail, etc), and then I also have some other local tiny, and I mean tiny, first leaf still emerging that have gone through the same with no issues.  How else do we think volunteers germinate, and live in nature?  I know this may be controversial to some, but we baby these palms, for no reason.  They are tough, put them outside dang it.

Edited by tlow
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GoatLockerGuns
5 minutes ago, tlow said:

The minors are sold as one year (palmpei)

So you buy seedlings, and do not germinate?

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tlow
1 minute ago, GoatLockerGuns said:

So you buy seedlings, and do not germinate?

Well, I have bought a lot of seedlings, liner sizes, 3-5-15Gs, but, I have a little over 1,200 seeds germinating with a lot of varieties in the mix.  I now probably have well over 250+ Sabals around the property.

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GoatLockerGuns
1 minute ago, tlow said:

I now probably have well over 250+ Sabals around the property.

Wow, that is impressive.  I grow most of my palms from seed.  The process requires some "babying" to get from seed to seedling and beyond.  For the Sabal sps,, I usually collect seed from local sources.  They are started on heat mats in baggies, and progress through various stages to get them potted and from artificial light to full natural sunlight.  I usually give my Sabal sps. at least a year in a pot to acclimate before planting outdoors.  Could I be planting them sooner?  Sure, I guess.  It sounds like you are having good results.  For me, I just want to give them the best chance of survival, and it does not hurt to leave them in a pot and "babied" for a year.  You clearly feel strongly about it, and I hope you have great success with your efforts.  It sounds likes like your property is starting to look like Palmetto State Park.

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tlow
6 minutes ago, GoatLockerGuns said:

Wow, that is impressive.  I grow most of my palms from seed.  The process requires some "babying" to get from seed to seedling and beyond.  For the Sabal sps,, I usually collect seed from local sources.  They are started on heat mats in baggies, and progress through various stages to get them potted and from artificial light to full natural sunlight.  I usually give my Sabal sps. at least a year in a pot to acclimate before planting outdoors.  Could I be planting them sooner?  Sure, I guess.  It sounds like you are having good results.  For me, I just want to give them the best chance of survival, and it does not hurt to leave them in a pot and "babied" for a year.  You clearly feel strongly about it, and I hope you have great success with your efforts.  It sounds likes like your property is starting to look like Palmetto State Park.

hah, it's a palm sanctuary.. need to get that going with tax purposes as well.  I do feel strongly, because like we have talked about the "guidelines" people get here are just that, guidelines, but we can experiment on our own and get results.  I know @teddytn and I have been doing this, him being a whole zone under us.  He doesn't have issues, I don't have issues, you sure as hell have absolutely no worries about going straight into the ground.

My goal is a few hundred Sabals on this property with just a few non-sabals around.  I have a Jubea Chilensis, Brahea Armata (3G that got planted during this storm, and ice stuff, no issues, growing beautifully), some needles, and maybe some others. I would say 90% of my palms are sabal.  I'll end up having almost 20x S. Birminghams, 8x S. Brazos, 20+ S. Louisiana, 50+ S. Minors, S. Palmetto, S. Lisa, and so so much more I can't even remember at this point.  It will be a sabal sanctuary and the best part is, I never have to get up on ladders and wrap things, no Christmas lights, none of that garbage.  I get to enjoy them.  I wrapped a bunch of stuff ONE time this year only because it was the first winter, and I did it un-necessarily.  I left half of everything un wrapped, and when we had our multi-day ice event, I pulled all of the wrapping off, and there was NO difference between wrapped and unwrapped.  I have some burnt tips, and old leaf damage on a few of my S. Bermudanas, S. Causarium, but the rest are like nothing happened, and amazingly, they have grown almost entirely through this whole winter.

Edited by tlow

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GoatLockerGuns
3 minutes ago, tlow said:

hah, it's a palm sanctuary.. need to get that going with tax purposes as well.

Start growing some Serenoa repens and tell them it is for agricultural purposes.  You can say you are selling the fruits for use in prostate health supplements.

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tlow
1 minute ago, GoatLockerGuns said:

Start growing some Serenoa repens and tell them it is for agricultural purposes.  You can say you are selling the fruits for use in prostate health supplements.

That's actually one I do not own... I probably need to get on that, good call.

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GoatLockerGuns
Just now, tlow said:

That's actually one I do not own... I probably need to get on that, good call.

I think there might be an acreage minimum you have to meet to claim agricultural purposes for your property here in Texas.  I want to say 8 acres, but I am not entirely sure on that.

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tlow
Just now, GoatLockerGuns said:

I think there might be an acreage minimum you have to meet to claim agricultural purposes for your property here in Texas.  I want to say 8 acres, but I am not entirely sure on that.

I'm joking about the exemption but I do want to make my own personal palm sanctuary.  I've been slowly acquiring so many various types of S. Minor (mccurtain, Warren AK, Beaufort NC, Baker Florida, Talladega AL, etc)).  I don't get it... people overlook Minors, and Sabals in general.  You could fill up a yard with just minor varieties, and run out of room.  Best part is, you never have to worry about death for them through zone 7, maybe even lower with minor protection.  For us here in North Texas, they are beyond bulletproof while everyone I drive around and see dead Washies, Trachys, and the like.  Garbage big toothpicks.

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GoatLockerGuns
2 minutes ago, tlow said:

people overlook Minors, and Sabals in general.

I know right?  I think it is the growth rate that turns people away.  The others you mentioned grow much faster, just not as hardy here.  Maybe after these last two winters, they will start making a comeback.  Judging from the ridiculous pricing I have seen for mature Sabal sps. specimens around here, the nursery's sure look like they are betting on just that.

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tlow
4 minutes ago, GoatLockerGuns said:

I know right?  I think it is the growth rate that turns people away.  The others you mentioned grow much faster, just not as hardy here.  Maybe after these last two winters, they will start making a comeback.  Judging from the ridiculous pricing I have seen for mature Sabal sps. specimens around here, the nursery's sure look like they are betting on just that.

Probably and I think the younger you can get them in the ground, the more hardened off they will become, and the better they will handle zone'ing up if you will, or severe cold weather events.  I put some small, I mean small strap leaf S. Palmettos in the ground last March that went uncovered through these cold events, barely any browning or leaf burn.  Nothing.  They're champs because they've been in the ground, and they are starting to get hardened off.  Waiting around until they are 3-5G, and baby'ing them, then being through cold of course they are going to get scorched and hurt... it's just common sense..  Same would be for humans honestly.  Take a Texan who has been here forever and through them into February up in Chicago.. now take me, who has lived in Chicago his whole life, and recently came down here and I can handle that in shorts, and a hoodie..

I'm still young, so I like seeing a mixture of baby sabals with a long way to go, 1G, 3G, 5G, and my biggest this year was a 15G S. Riverside which I absolutely am in love with.  Rocket, and has taken all of this cold, with no damage.  I'll see a big mix in my life here as they continue to grow.  Some of the ones I'm the most excited about are going to start doubling in size.  Couple of my S. Birminghams are throwing up nice palmate leaves, and some of my older S. Louisianas have big palmate leaves now.  This year will be amazing.  Just need to get through today, and tomorrow morning.

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teddytn
54 minutes ago, tlow said:

Well, I have bought a lot of seedlings, liner sizes, 3-5-15Gs, but, I have a little over 1,200 seeds germinating with a lot of varieties in the mix.  I now probably have well over 250+ Sabals around the property.

Wait a year until it’s 120,000 seeds germinating…..

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tlow
Just now, teddytn said:

Wait a year until it’s 120,000 seeds germinating…..

LOL we'll get there brother.  Once I get these all fruiting, i'll be wild seeding all over the place here to naturalize them in the area, but also for the other reason as well.  It's started.

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Chester B

Although not in the same climate I grow a bunch of Sabals too.  We don't experience real cold like you get on occasion but our winters are generally cool, damp and not the sunniest.  I also have observed that putting very small minors in the ground when they have 3 or 4 leaves is the best choice.  They significantly outgrow ones left in pots and the don't flinch at winter.  My only issue is rabbits sampling them, they don't seem to like the taste so spit them out.  

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tlow
32 minutes ago, Chester B said:

Although not in the same climate I grow a bunch of Sabals too.  We don't experience real cold like you get on occasion but our winters are generally cool, damp and not the sunniest.  I also have observed that putting very small minors in the ground when they have 3 or 4 leaves is the best choice.  They significantly outgrow ones left in pots and the don't flinch at winter.  My only issue is rabbits sampling them, they don't seem to like the taste so spit them out.  

Agreed on everything even the rabbit comment.  It was so bad last year (after the freeze) that they nibbled on ALL of my Sabals across the property.  I had to go out and get a few hundred feet of chicken wire, and I built little cages around every single one.  I have been slowly taking those off, and hope to have them ALL off this year because they only nibble the baby petioles not the 2 year old ones+

This year will be a BIG one for everything here, really big.... Can't wait... just need to get through today, and tomorrow morning.

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Chester B
1 minute ago, tlow said:

Agreed on everything even the rabbit comment.  It was so bad last year (after the freeze) that they nibbled on ALL of my Sabals across the property.  I had to go out and get a few hundred feet of chicken wire, and I built little cages around every single one.  I have been slowly taking those off, and hope to have them ALL off this year because they only nibble the baby petioles not the 2 year old ones+

This year will be a BIG one for everything here, really big.... Can't wait... just need to get through today, and tomorrow morning.

I hadn't heard you guys were getting cold again.  How bad?

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tlow
1 minute ago, Chester B said:

I hadn't heard you guys were getting cold again.  How bad?

hah, nothing, it'll be 27 tomorrow morning, and we're done (hopefully).. It'll be about 41F today (cloudy all day), and above freezing all day, little dip tomorrow, and we're back up again with 60's, 70's, 80's, with overnights in the 40's and 50's...  Let's get past this already, I am ready.

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Chester B

That's not bad, just a blip.  I would love to have some 70's and 80's right about now.  We've been stuck in the 50's for months.

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tlow
3 minutes ago, Chester B said:

That's not bad, just a blip.  I would love to have some 70's and 80's right about now.  We've been stuck in the 50's for months.

Yes - spot on with the blip that's what i'm saying people in my zone and even in 7a\7b, not by guideline, but by experience can plant most Sabals nearly year round.  Our zone, 8a and beyond, can plant year round with absolutely no problem, regardless of the size.  I have hundreds, and have been willing to lose things throughout this all so I can speak from experience.  These things are beyond tough, stop baby'ing them.  They're not feather palms lol.  They're are 'merica palms.

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Jimhardy

Keep in mind that strap leaves will not be as hardy as mature leaves..

So,you don't want to stress them as small palms where there could be damage

because we all know how long they can take to get divided leaves in the first place...

That said, this is an amazingly hardy palm, I expect "my" S.Brazoria at the old house to come

back again this year with no protection of any kind....there was a S.McCurtain there too but it

was in the path of the lawn mower or I think it would still be there....this is Iowa mind you. 

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tlow
17 hours ago, Jimhardy said:

Keep in mind that strap leaves will not be as hardy as mature leaves..

So,you don't want to stress them as small palms where there could be damage

because we all know how long they can take to get divided leaves in the first place...

That said, this is an amazingly hardy palm, I expect "my" S.Brazoria at the old house to come

back again this year with no protection of any kind....there was a S.McCurtain there too but it

was in the path of the lawn mower or I think it would still be there....this is Iowa mind you. 

Honestly, I have seen the opposite.  Strap leaves are hardier than older mature palms even in some circumstances.  You have been instrumental in me getting my trachys to live, so I'm not challenging you on this.  I'm merely experimenting because I think the conventional wisdom of many of the folks on this board are just flat out wrong.  They are book-smart at best, with no practical application.

I literally have probably 50+ minors at this point in varying sizes with the smallest ones coming from palmpei (one year seedlings).  I have been buying them up like crazy because, I have a bunch of spots for Minors to take over in, around, near my woods, and the house.  I figure at only a buck or so a piece I can experiment.. that and quite honestly, I thought we were done with all freezing temps a few weeks ago but this morning looks like it after hitting 28F overnight.

These youngsters have been put in many spots facing all cardinal directions, have taken ice, snow, hail, 17-32F for hours, in one instance 36 hours of 22F and nothing, not a scratch.  Same for Birmy seedlings, 3-5 yr Louisianas, Texas Sabalas, Urensas, Brazos and many more.  The only two who had some noticable damge, but will recover, is a young S. Causarium, and 3G S. Bermudana.  The other Bermudana looks much better actually.

Washingtonia that I tried here... ALL fried.  Garbage, not suitable for this zone, just no point.  Load up on Sabals everyone.  It's not difficult.  Your garden in Zone 8a\8b and below, should be 95% Sabals as a foundation, with some other zone pushes, otherwise you'll be up on a ladder protecting every few weeks.. moronic and backwards.  I've been fortunate to experiment, and real-world examples are more useful than booksmart stuff all day long for me. 

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Jimhardy

Come to Iowa and try to grow palms....22F is nothing

we get that below zero...someone once asked me "what do I know" because

I live in Iowa.....well every year I had to deal with this when I first started.

When you hit -22F then chime in with experience.

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tlow
22 hours ago, Jimhardy said:

Come to Iowa and try to grow palms....22F is nothing

we get that below zero...someone once asked me "what do I know" because

I live in Iowa.....well every year I had to deal with this when I first started.

When you hit -22F then chime in with experience.

Trust me.. I know cold, unfortunately.  I spent my entire life in Norther Illinois, with a few years up in the UP of Michigan.  Those kinds of negatives were normal, and just one of the myriad of reasons I moved to North Texas.  Now, it amazes me I can grow beautiful sabals with zero protection, even their first year out, and down to tiny strap leaf seedlings.  I'm just saying, these things are MUCH tougher than people give them credit for, and don't need to be babied.  My experimenting this year has shown that, at least for my zone and or one zone below.  Someone a zone above me should try the same thing on some young minors of their own.  I'd be willing to be a beer they would get the same results.

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Jimhardy

I totally agree they are tough as nails and I would plant them over a Needle palm

any day but at the same time if I am going to bother with growing palms here

I want people to see them(although I have gotten lazy and just cut them back

and stuff them in rose cones)so I like growing trunking palms(in my lifetime)

but but but...seeing the Brazoria still alive after 3 Iowa winters with no protection

makes you really respect these palms and it helps me see them in a new(cold) light.

I am sure if I had the same experience with the Needle palm I would feel the same way about them.

Edited by Jimhardy
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N8ALLRIGHT
10 hours ago, Jimhardy said:

 

but but but...seeing the Brazoria still alive after 3 Iowa winters with no protection

 

Hey Jim,is your old brazoria next to the house or out in the yard?

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Jimhardy

Its kinda off the southeast corner next to the front porch...Ill see if I can find a picture...

BTW  I went by there today and the Brazoria is browned out, my strap leaved McCurtain and Louisiana

both look better but they were under rose cones, so an exposed -15F on the Braz and same for 2 youngsters

but they were covered -no heat. There is a Y.Gloriosa there too but it looks nuked,

Here it is 4 years ago...it is smaller now...tough life for a palm here in Iowa.

 

NJBNYFX.jpg

Edited by Jimhardy
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N8ALLRIGHT

Tough plants! Middle Missouri is marginally warmer than your area so I'm cautiously optimistic about planting mine out, the area I want to plant some in is not near my foundation so was just looking for some real world input. I'm not deluding myself I know supplemental heat will be required to thrive in an exposed location, just wanted to know about survival w/out it.

Thanks

Nate

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Jimhardy

yeah....I used to live in StL and there is a big difference between southeast Iowa

and the weather there...lots more heat and humidity.

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