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Montengro

New Transplanted Sylvester Palm Doesn't Look in Good Shape

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Montengro

Hi,

Please help as I just bought a Sylvester Palm this past Saturday and the Sylvester Palm is not looking in great shape.  The middle fronds above the trunk are swaying/ growing to the side at an angle instead of being straight up and/ or vertically.  There's a "V" type gap on top of the trunk  

I think I should of had an expert deliver and install instead of having people from Craigslist provide that service.   Also, not happy how they butchered the fronds base ( I think that's what they are called idk).  

Please let me know if the sylvester can be saved and/ or if the Sylvester middle fronds will eventually grow straight -up.  I am hoping that the Sylvester is just in shock and it will eventually recover. Please see attached photos. I tried attaching  photo but file is to large. Thank you. 

Location: SE Florida

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PalmatierMeg

Please post photos

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Montengro

1‬Copying and pasting worked.  Please let me know if you need different angles taken.  Thank you.

 

 

 

 

 

IMG_1817.JPG

IMG_1820.JPG

Edited by Montengro
Photos are being removed. Something about photos not being formatted. How do I post photos? Sorry I am new to the site.
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Montengro

Here are some photos of today. More browning. 

IMG_1827.JPG

IMG_1829.JPG

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Keith in SoJax

Two things:  

First, it doesn't look like a full blooded P sylvestris (thats common in FL, by the way).  The boots are quite small and close together for sylvestris, but it might have a sylvestris mother.  

Second:, sometimes we see Boron deficiency on palms here in FL.  It causes them to grow oddly, not unlike the plant in your photos.  Boron is easy to buy, its sold as 20 Mule Team Borax in the laundry detergent aisle.  But, it might only take a tiny amount, like 1/8 teaspoon in 5 gallons of water drenched under the palm, then watered in, to do the job.  Even that might damage the turf grass.  But I did correct a problem on Copernicia alba using that technique.  And for the record, it'd be better to make two small applications of Boron than one large one.  It can be a powerful herbicide, but Boron is an essential plant element that is sometimes not available in adequate quantities here in FL.  

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DoomsDave

It looks like it might be a hybrid between P. sylvestris and something like lourerii, given the way the leaf bases look. As Keith in SJ points out, sylvestris is a bigger palm, wiht coarser leaves and larger leafbases.

 

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Montengro
41 minutes ago, Keith in SoJax said:

Two things:  

First, it doesn't look like a full blooded P sylvestris (thats common in FL, by the way).  The boots are quite small and close together for sylvestris, but it might have a sylvestris mother.  

Second:, sometimes we see Boron deficiency on palms here in FL.  It causes them to grow oddly, not unlike the plant in your photos.  Boron is easy to buy, its sold as 20 Mule Team Borax in the laundry detergent aisle.  But, it might only take a tiny amount, like 1/8 teaspoon in 5 gallons of water drenched under the palm, then watered in, to do the job.  Even that might damage the turf grass.  But I did correct a problem on Copernicia alba using that technique.  And for the record, it'd be better to make two small applications of Boron than one large one.  It can be a powerful herbicide, but Boron is an essential plant element that is sometimes not available in adequate quantities here in FL.  

Should I apply boron eventhough I just planted it on Saturday?

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Montengro
22 minutes ago, DoomsDave said:

It looks like it might be a hybrid between P. sylvestris and something like lourerii, given the way the leaf bases look. As Keith in SJ points out, sylvestris is a bigger palm, wiht coarser leaves and larger leafbases.

 

Great, I guess I was ripped-off on Craigslist.  Do you think palm can be saved? And how do I save? 

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Montengro

So, I went to a nursery during my lunch break and they were telling me that my tree looks like it was either damaged during transport and /or it was not planted properly (might be some air pockets). Do you guys agree? 

If so, how do I get rid of air pockets? 

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TexasColdHardyPalms

I disagree with your nursery and I think Keith is spot on with his diagnosis.

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DoomsDave

We don't have boron problems here, but try a little as DFW and Keith suggest. It's cheap and it can't hurt.

If the palm recovers and looks good, who cares if it's a mongrel? We all love our mongreloid mutts . . . .

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Keith in SoJax
17 hours ago, Montengro said:

Should I apply boron eventhough I just planted it on Saturday?

No, not if you just planted it.  

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Keith in SoJax
17 hours ago, Montengro said:

Great, I guess I was ripped-off on Craigslist.  Do you think palm can be saved? And how do I save? 

I wouldn't think of it as ripped-off.  And yes, I think the tree will be fine without all that much effort.  Just get some 8-2-12 Palm Fert and give it a cup or two.  Sylvestris is a tough palm.  

 

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Keith in SoJax
17 hours ago, DoomsDave said:

It looks like it might be a hybrid between P. sylvestris and something like lourerii, given the way the leaf bases look. As Keith in SJ points out, sylvestris is a bigger palm, wiht coarser leaves and larger leafbases.

 

Dave, that was my thought too.  That would be kind of a cool hybrid, BTW.  

 

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DoomsDave
17 hours ago, Montengro said:

Should I apply boron eventhough I just planted it on Saturday?

Follow Keith's advice, if his conflicts with mine!

We all want a good result for you!

I've got free seeds if you're interested, just PM me. (And anyone else, too.)

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Keith in SoJax
Just now, DoomsDave said:

Follow Keith's advice, if his conflicts with mine!

We all want a good result for you!

I've got free seeds if you're interested, just PM me. (And anyone else, too.)

My logic is that if the palm has been in a pot, it could be out of nutrients.  Now that its out of the cage, it has a much larger area to forage for nutrients.  If he gives it a couple cups of good palm food to get it going, it has Boron and should be adequate.  I prefer not to feed with a single element unless there is a verified deficiency.  Sometimes the treatment is worse than leaving them alone.  

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Montengro
18 minutes ago, Keith in SoJax said:

My logic is that if the palm has been in a pot, it could be out of nutrients.  Now that its out of the cage, it has a much larger area to forage for nutrients.  If he gives it a couple cups of good palm food to get it going, it has Boron and should be adequate.  I prefer not to feed with a single element unless there is a verified deficiency.  Sometimes the treatment is worse than leaving them alone.  

Hi Keith,

The Sylvester palm was not in a pot, it was on the ground.  Do you think I should apply Palm fertilizer eventhough I just planted his past Saturday? Everything I have read contradicts not applying fertilizer to newly planted palms.  

I have sunnyland fertilizer at home the first and last numbers are like around17 and the middle number is around 8 is this ok to use?  Thanks. 

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Montengro
28 minutes ago, DoomsDave said:

Follow Keith's advice, if his conflicts with mine!

We all want a good result for you!

I've got free seeds if you're interested, just PM me. (And anyone else, too.)

Thanks Dave, I will keep it in mind.  

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Patrick

Was this palm just transplanted? I was curious if there wasn't some sort of stress in the crown taking place because of the shocked/ reduced rootball.

 

I was thinking crown collapse due to transpiration losses. there's a reason why you see palms with the leaves tied up for the first several weeks or months after transplanting.

 

Drastic measures would be to cut off bottom fronds, though I would do that as my last option. You could also try tying everything up but you wil probably get stabbed- ouch!

 

Just a thought, maybe someone can confirm this; maybe that's not as much of a concern out there in Florida.

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Alicehunter2000

Put hose on full blast and push down around the rootball with the pressurized water.....if there are air pockets you will know...be careful not to let your hose get stuck as you shove it down around the root ball....water the heck out of it and keep stomping soil down into any pocket you uncover. A shovel handle pushed down when applying water helps.

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Hammer
20 minutes ago, Patrick said:

Was this palm just transplanted? I was curious if there wasn't some sort of stress in the crown taking place because of the shocked/ reduced rootball.

 

I was thinking crown collapse due to transpiration losses. there's a reason why you see palms with the leaves tied up for the first several weeks or months after transplanting.

 

Drastic measures would be to cut off bottom fronds, though I would do that as my last option. You could also try tying everything up but you wil probably get stabbed- ouch!

 

Just a thought, maybe someone can confirm this; maybe that's not as much of a concern out there in Florida.

I agree with Patrick. I am not a Florida grower...that is my caveat.  But I would NOT fertilize.  Water as much as possible without rotting out what is left of the roots..  Throw up some shade cloth for several months.  If/when the palm throws a new leaf, consider removing the shade.

Looks to me like severe root trauma. It doesn't have the root system to support the green leaves.  Sun makes this worse.

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GMann

Can't offer advice on how to treat it, but in terms of ID, this one looks like it might be a Sylvestris / Canary cross. The leaves have the color and shape of a Canary rather than a sylvestris.

If the palm does make a recovery then you will have something that is much rarer and IMO way cooler than a pure Sylvestris.

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Keith in SoJax
11 hours ago, Montengro said:

Hi Keith,

The Sylvester palm was not in a pot, it was on the ground.  Do you think I should apply Palm fertilizer eventhough I just planted his past Saturday? Everything I have read contradicts not applying fertilizer to newly planted palms.  

I have sunnyland fertilizer at home the first and last numbers are like around17 and the middle number is around 8 is this ok to use?  Thanks. 

A cup or two spread evenly around the tree, and past the edge of the planting hole by 6" or so.  Our sand just doesn't have have any inherit nutrients.  

Post a picture of the fertilizer's guaranteed analysis, please.  I'm not aware old them packaging a good palm fertilizer for Florida, but maybe I'm wrong.  Lots of companies sell fertilizer with the word palm on the bag, but it's not a guarantee it's actually good for your planting site.  Univ of FL has published good palm fertilizer recommendation for FL. 

 

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Keith in SoJax
7 hours ago, Alicehunter2000 said:

Put hose on full blast and push down around the rootball with the pressurized water.....if there are air pockets you will know...be careful not to let your hose get stuck as you shove it down around the root ball....water the heck out of it and keep stomping soil down into any pocket you uncover. A shovel handle pushed down when applying water helps.

This is very good advice, especially in the dry season!  

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Keith in SoJax
12 hours ago, DoomsDave said:

Follow Keith's advice, if his conflicts with mine!

We all want a good result for you!

I've got free seeds if you're interested, just PM me. (And anyone else, too.)

That's kind of you Dave, but I wouldn't say that if this were a California planting site.  I get FLORIDA'S planting challenges:  sand, not soil.  Extremes of drought and then excess moisture, bugs, etc. I don't have that experience in CA. 

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DoomsDave
4 minutes ago, Keith in SoJax said:

That's kind of you Dave, but I wouldn't say that if this were a California planting site.  I get FLORIDA'S planting challenges:  sand, not soil.  Extremes of drought and then excess moisture, bugs, etc. I don't have that experience in CA. 

True

But he's in Florida

So I defer to  you

And your more informed judgment!

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Jim in Los Altos

Two things I immediately thought:

1. This palm was dug up and the digger got too small of a rootball.

2. It's planted too high. Judging from the picture, it appears that the palm is several inches out of the ground compared to how it was in its original site. 

If it were mine, I'd mound soil up to where you see the leaf bases start and out about three feet. The hole they dug was very small in diameter and too shallow. These are tough palms and it will likely recover. I'd also remove about half the remaining leaves from the bottom up to reduce transporation water loss.

IMG_2657.thumb.PNG.c690941e03a3cd0564553

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Keith in SoJax
8 hours ago, Jim in Los Altos said:

Two things I immediately thought:

1. This palm was dug up and the digger got too small of a rootball.

2. It's planted too high. Judging from the picture, it appears that the palm is several inches out of the ground compared to how it was in its original site. 

If it were mine, I'd mound soil up to where you see the leaf bases start and out about three feet. The hole they dug was very small in diameter and too shallow. These are tough palms and it will likely recover. I'd also remove about half the remaining leaves from the bottom up to reduce transporation water loss.

IMG_2657.thumb.PNG.c690941e03a3cd0564553

Jim's onto something.  It is planted high.  FWIW, Phoenix palms have such aggressive root systems that they often push themselves up out of the pot.  Of course, the right thing to do is plant it back so that the root line/crown is at or just below the soil surface.  So adding soil at the base isn't a bad idea.  That said, its common to see phoenix palms heaved up a bit around here.  I think some of it occurs naturally, but horticultural practices in the nurseries make it worse.  I know this one wasn't in a pot when purchased, but I guarantee something close to 100% of the phoenix palms sold in FL were in pots when they were young.  The one big exception would be the P. dactylifera that retire here (from AZ and CA) to die, rather like us old humans.  If Florida is heavens waiting room, heaven should have lots of date palms.

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topwater
9 hours ago, Jim in Los Altos said:

 

 These are tough palms and it will likely recover. I'd also remove about half the remaining leaves from the bottom up to reduce transporation water loss.

IMG_2657.thumb.PNG.c690941e03a3cd0564553

I've heard the same thing. Theoretically, a dug up palm has a greatly reduced root ball and can lose water from the leaves via transpiration faster than it can take up water through the relatively small root system. Hence, removing lower fronds can reduce water loss until the roots catch up to the foliage. 

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Patrick

The first thing I thought with the original photo was, where is the hole the palm was planted in? But I didn't want to be negative. I see nothing but grass all the way up to the palm; and if I transplant I'M making a decent hole- out not down- and I don't believe that the grass could have grown back that fast. It is Florida and Bermuda grass though, lol.

 

I wonder what IS under it. Air pockets? It wasn't a very good hole to begin with presumptively whoever dug it so the hose idea is a good one. FORTUNATELY dates are pretty tough. I have one that's been 3/4 dead for about 2 years now. It won't die. I should be arrested for abuse.

 

I wanted to entertain the idea of cutting off more leaves than were already cut- almost like a hurricane cut- to stop the transpiration losses and allow the roots to take hold. Does anyone else think that's a decent idea?

 

A note as to the fertilizer, the more fertilizer you add you create a water need with the palm. The roots gather the water. If the roots aren't there to gather the water you add to the crown collapse.

 

 

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Patrick
On 4/15/2017, 5:55:12, Keith in SoJax said:

If Florida is heavens waiting room, heaven should have lots of date palms.

LOL I'm there!

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Montengro

I got home today and this what my Sylvester looks like. :(. More browning everywhere.  Over the weekend I raised the grade/ soil around the Sylvester, built a little mound to hold water, and added some root stimulator.  

I guess I am going to cut some of the bottom fronds as some have suggested. 

I hope this sylvester is as tough as advertised. 

IMG_1859.JPG

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Montengro
On 4/14/2017, 11:29:52, Keith in SoJax said:

A cup or two spread evenly around the tree, and past the edge of the planting hole by 6" or so.  Our sand just doesn't have have any inherit nutrients.  

Post a picture of the fertilizer's guaranteed analysis, please.  I'm not aware old them packaging a good palm fertilizer for Florida, but maybe I'm wrong.  Lots of companies sell fertilizer with the word palm on the bag, but it's not a guarantee it's actually good for your planting site.  Univ of FL has published good palm fertilizer recommendation for FL. 

 

Hi Keith, 

This is the Palm fertilizer I have at home.  

IMG_1861.JPG

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Montengro

Also, I tried to get rid of any air pockets by pushing down a piece of pvc pipe as deep as I could, spraying the inside of PVC pipe with water, and I would finish by stumping on the soil. Here is a photo of the root stimulator.  

IMG_1862.JPG

IMG_1865.JPG

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Keith in SoJax

Frankly, in this photo it just looks like it dried out.  Water the snot out of it.  Every day.  Spray the foliage too, maybe right at dusk so it stays wet overnight.  It might make it.  Don't feed it now that its obviously showing drought symptoms.  Phoenix palms are tough.  Almost as tough as Cycads, but not quite.  P sylvestris loves water.  

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TexasColdHardyPalms
6 hours ago, Keith in SoJax said:

Frankly, in this photo it just looks like it dried out.  Water the snot out of it.  Every day.  Spray the foliage too, maybe right at dusk so it stays wet overnight.  It might make it.  Don't feed it now that its obviously showing drought symptoms.  Phoenix palms are tough.  Almost as tough as Cycads, but not quite.  P sylvestris loves water.  

+1. This progression pic shows transplant stress and lack of water. Water vigorously as keith suggested. 

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Ben in Norcal

Get some soil around the base.  Jim's right, that thing is planted too high and that won't help with water uptake if roots are exposed like that.  

Who did this?  I'd ask for a replacement, or a refund.

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Montengro
On 4/18/2017, 9:07:58, Ben in Norcal said:

Get some soil around the base.  Jim's right, that thing is planted too high and that won't help with water uptake if roots are exposed like that.  

Who did this?  I'd ask for a replacement, or a refund.

Some guy from Craigslist planted the sylvester. I guess I got what I paid for. 

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Montengro

Day 14.  Sylvester doesn't look any better. :(. I raised the grade a lil higher. 

IMG_1880.JPG

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