At what age do Sabal palmetto flower/seed?

[PalmatierMeg]

I've been wondering: at approximately what age or stage does Sabal palmetto start to seed?

I've got a number of Sabal species growing on my lot, including maritima, causiarum, etonia, miamiensis, domingensis, minor bermudana, brazoria, guatemalensis and, of course, half a dozen palmettos, both normal and Lisas. A number of them, i.e., causiarum, domingensis, miamiensis, etonia, maritima, bermudana and minor, have been flowering/seeding for the past several years. And I remove their flower stalks each year so I'm not inundated with seeds.

But even though my palmettos are among the oldest Sabals I have, not one has ever flowered. This year looks to be no different.

So, I wonder, at what age/stage does a palmetto begin to flower and set seed? Do I have hope for that event in my lifetime?

[Laaz]

They can start flowering with as little as a few feet of trunk.

[PalmatierMeg]

4 hours ago, Laaz said:

They can start flowering with as little as a few feet of trunk.

Then some of them must be getting close. Thanks.

[Sabal Steve]

6 hours ago, PalmatierMeg said:

Then some of them must be getting close. Thanks.

We would love to see an update sometime, Meg.  You had me guess what they were, a while back.  I thought I knew it all back then:)  

[Mandrew968]

On 4/6/2017, 12:59:40, PalmatierMeg said:

I've been wondering: at approximately what age or stage does Sabal palmetto start to seed?

I've got a number of Sabal species growing on my lot, including maritima, causiarum, etonia, miamiensis, domingensis, minor bermudana, brazoria, guatemalensis and, of course, half a dozen palmettos, both normal and Lisas. A number of them, i.e., causiarum, domingensis, miamiensis, etonia, maritima, bermudana and minor, have been flowering/seeding for the past several years. And I remove their flower stalks each year so I'm not inundated with seeds.

But even though my palmettos are among the oldest Sabals I have, not one has ever flowered. This year looks to be no different.

So, I wonder, at what age/stage does a palmetto begin to flower and set seed? Do I have hope for that event in my lifetime?

Meg, what a loaded question! Best answer is when they are good and well ready to; I have seen (and proven on this forum) Sabal palmetto will flower way before it ever has any trunk, but it doesn't have to. It's not anything we can quantify-like why do some lose their boots early and others don't? 

Palmtalk has been pretty generous with Sabal annecdotes. What we can take from all of it is that variation is quite high, as with most palms with a vast natural distribution. I have even seen Sabal palmetto become invasive in its own habitat-that was a shocker for me...

[Turtlesteve]

Anecdotally I have occasionally seen one with seed but without any vertical trunk.  I only noted this after reading that they shouldn'd do that.

Steve

[Silas_Sancona]

Came across about a dozen, 5gal S. palmetto at a big box store yesterday. Several were pushing inflos. None had trunks, err.. anything visible.  Additionally, when I worked out in Queen Creek last Spring, several 24" boxed Palmetto we had at the time also flowered and started successful seed development. Also curious with what might be happining with yours Meg

[Walt]

I've watched Sabal palmetto grow from seedlings, but I've never observed any that started to flower until they got about 5 feet of trunk. Not to say they won't/can't flower with less trunk, but that's my observation. On the other hand, Sabal etonia flower (they have no trunk, although some have a short unbooted stem), and that's how I know they are not a juvenile Sabal palmetto -- because juvenile Sabal palmettos don't flower and seed.

[Mandrew968]

6 hours ago, Walt said:

I've watched Sabal palmetto grow from seedlings, but I've never observed any that started to flower until they got about 5 feet of trunk. Not to say they won't/can't flower with less trunk, but that's my observation. On the other hand, Sabal etonia flower (they have no trunk, although some have a short unbooted stem), and that's how I know they are not a juvenile Sabal palmetto -- because juvenile Sabal palmettos don't flower and seed.

Walt, my neighborhood must be bizzaro world, cuz the church down the street has em doing just that. Of course the lack of soil and heavy rock might have something to do with it...

[Walt]

15 hours ago, Mandrew968 said:

Walt, my neighborhood must be bizzaro world, cuz the church down the street has em doing just that. Of course the lack of soil and heavy rock might have something to do with it...

I'm only speaking based on observation of my own Sabal palmettos growing on my property. When I bought my property over 19 years ago I knew what Sabal palmetto was, but not Sabal etonia. I scanned my property and there were lots of small sabal palms (no trunk) growing all over the place. I assumed they were juvenile Sabal palmetto. I soon learned about Sabal etonia (scrub palmetto) from the Betrock's Guide to Landscape Palms. Still, I couldn't readily discern a Sabal etonia from a juvenile Sabal palmetto. But I soon noticed flowering and seeds on the the trunkless palms. There were some Sabal palmetto with maybe 1-2 feet of trunk, but they had never flowered, so I figured the flowering palms were Sabal etonia. In any event, I watched the Sabal palmetto continue to grow and develop trunk. But like I said earlier, they didn't get their first inflorescence until they had about 5 feet or slightly more of trunk.

I have my eye on some developing Sabal palmetto and will be monitoring them to see when they first begin to flower.

[Mandrew968]

Discerning between palmetto and etonia is not easy! 

[Walt]

On 4/9/2017, 5:31:33, Mandrew968 said:

Discerning between palmetto and etonia is not easy! 

When both species are juvenile they are, at least for me, not easy to distinguish them apart. I have some S. etonia that have more vertical petioles, while others are far less vertical, maybe only lying on a plane 15 degrees above the ground. Some palms are much smaller overall than others. I posted this video before, but since we are on the subject I will post it again: 

 

[The Germinator]

Mine has flowered at just a foot or two of trunk.

[JLeVert]

I think that when Sabal palmetto is provided additional water and fertilizer, they will flower in as little as 8 years from seed.  In the wild, I would imagine it takes a lot longer since nutrients and water would be whatever nature provided and competition might be fierce.  I have wandered around the wet areas near Augusta, GA and seen thousands of Sabal minor, but very few even seem to have even tried to put up a bloom stalk most years and the ones that do have very few seeds on them.  In my yard where they are taken care of, they bear seeds by the thousands.  I have a 20 year old Sabal uresana and it has yet to bloom.  Much younger Sabal causiarum have been bearing seed for years.

My non-blooming S. uresana:

[Mandrew968]

On 4/8/2017, 12:37:24, Walt said:

I've watched Sabal palmetto grow from seedlings, but I've never observed any that started to flower until they got about 5 feet of trunk. Not to say they won't/can't flower with less trunk, but that's my observation. On the other hand, Sabal etonia flower (they have no trunk, although some have a short unbooted stem), and that's how I know they are not a juvenile Sabal palmetto -- because juvenile Sabal palmettos don't flower and seed.

I took these pics for you, Walt. Not a trunk in sight, but seed has already been produced.

[Mandrew968]

Here is another, but the first one really is tiny!

[Walt]

On 4/12/2017, 5:20:24, Mandrew968 said:

I took these pics for you, Walt. Not a trunk in sight, but seed has already been produced.

Yes, from my years of observation, Sabal etonia vary greatly in size. I have small ones (like the one in your first photo) to others that run the range all the way up to the biggest ones, similar to the one in your second photo. Years ago I had one Saba etonia with about 18" over unbooted stem, but for some unknown reason is started to die one frond at a time until the spear died and pulled. I tried treating the palm with a wide spectrum fungicide (once I really knew it was declining), but it did no good. I had monitored this palm for many years, watching the stem get taller and taller, and was hoping one day this palm would develop some clear trunk. I've had many other fairly mature Sabal etonia palm that just inexplicably died. I have no way of knowing what killed them.

[Mandrew968]

Walt, best I know, I was posting pics of palmetto tell me why you say etonia. These palms are palmetto. I would bet breakfast on it.

[Mandrew968]

I didn't take pictures of them because it was not my point of conversation but there are palmetto of all sizes-some quite tall. No etonia in this particular pine rockland...

[Walt]

On 4/11/2017, 7:22:26, JLeVert said:

I think that when Sabal palmetto is provided additional water and fertilizer, they will flower in as little as 8 years from seed.  In the wild, I would imagine it takes a lot longer since nutrients and water would be whatever nature provided and competition might be fierce.  I have wandered around the wet areas near Augusta, GA and seen thousands of Sabal minor, but very few even seem to have even tried to put up a bloom stalk most years and the ones that do have very few seeds on them.  In my yard where they are taken care of, they bear seeds by the thousands.  I have a 20 year old Sabal uresana and it has yet to bloom.  Much younger Sabal causiarum have been bearing seed for years.

My non-blooming S. uresana:

I believe that time period of your Sabal palmetto flowering. I'm convinced Sabal palmetto will respond to fertilizer and extra water.  Next to my driveway concrete slab there was (original to my property) as trunked Sabal palmetto. It had 7-8 feet of unbooted trunk. I built a flower bed around the palm and also debooted it). By fertilizing the flowers and giving the flowers hand watering, I noticed (over the years) that the Sabal palmetto increased it's trunk diameter (estimating it started after I made the flower bed) at the top. You can now see several more feet of trunk with a larger trunk caliper at the top.

Additionally, a volunteer Sabal palmetto sprouted near the base of the original palm. But, this new palm grew markedly fast to where it is almost as tall as the original palm. I have progression photos to document this phenomenal growth rate. And, yes, this palm definitely started to flower within 8 years I first noticed it as a seedling.

I also have many Sabal uresana (about the size of yours) that have not flowered yet. I like this species more than Sabal palmetto due to their color and bigger crown spread.

[Mandrew968]

Yep, not etonia, Walt. This is a salty environment, for one, and the seed is not big enough-the whole flower structure is wrong for etonia, but thanks for getting me confused for a second, there! Positively palmetto and no trunks. 

[Walt]

On 4/12/2017, 5:20:24, Mandrew968 said:

I took these pics for you, Walt. Not a trunk in sight, but seed has already been produced.

LOL! See, I am confused. I thought you posted pics of S. etonia. This just proves to me I still can't discern between the two species when young. They only one trait I observe on some of my most juvenile (or at least the smallest ones) S. etonia is that the petioles lie almost flat on the ground or definitely at a lower angle to the ground than juvenile S. palmetto. 

[Walt]

On 4/12/2017, 5:20:24, Mandrew968 said:

I took these pics for you, Walt. Not a trunk in sight, but seed has already been produced.

 

One of my larger (but not largest) Sabal etonia, now putting out long inflorescence. My Sabal palmetto palms are also putting out inflorescence. 

 

 

 

[JLeVert]

On 4/14/2017, 4:33:18, Walt said:

I believe that time period of your Sabal palmetto flowering. I'm convinced Sabal palmetto will respond to fertilizer and extra water.  Next to my driveway concrete slab there was (original to my property) as trunked Sabal palmetto. It had 7-8 feet of unbooted trunk. I built a flower bed around the palm and also debooted it). By fertilizing the flowers and giving the flowers hand watering, I noticed (over the years) that the Sabal palmetto increased it's trunk diameter (estimating it started after I made the flower bed) at the top. You can now see several more feet of trunk with a larger trunk caliper at the top.

Additionally, a volunteer Sabal palmetto sprouted near the base of the original palm. But, this new palm grew markedly fast to where it is almost as tall as the original palm. I have progression photos to document this phenomenal growth rate. And, yes, this palm definitely started to flower within 8 years I first noticed it as a seedling.

I also have many Sabal uresana (about the size of yours) that have not flowered yet. I like this species more than Sabal palmetto due to their color and bigger crown spread.

The Sabal uresana in the photo above (I hope that it's still there) is going to bloom this year!  I'm so proud.....my first grandchildren!

[PalmatierMeg]

Here is an update. After I posted this topic last April, my largest Sabal Lisa produced its first crop of seeds. I am conducting a test germination to ascertain viability. This year she is on the way to flowering a second time. I figure my mother palm is 10-11 years old at most. I got it as a 2-leaf seedling in a small cone in May 2008. Based on the info provided on this topic I figured I would wait years before she produced seeds. I have several normal S. palmettos I germinated when I first got in to seed germination in early 2008. None of them shows even the slightest sign of flowering in the near future. So, do the Sabal Lisa genetics also convey earlier maturation?

[JLeVert]

I don't know about Lisa,  but I have S. palmettos blooming when they are very young and some that wait for years.  The Lisa type S. causiarum in Savannah didn't bloom until they had about 8' of clear trunk.  There is a huge unknown Sabal about 20' away from them and it hasn't bloomed yet.  All were planted as 3gal. plants in 2004.

[Palmsbro]

On 5/9/2018, 6:36:04, PalmatierMeg said:

Here is an update. After I posted this topic last April, my largest Sabal Lisa produced its first crop of seeds. I am conducting a test germination to ascertain viability. This year she is on the way to flowering a second time. I figure my mother palm is 10-11 years old at most. I got it as a 2-leaf seedling in a small cone in May 2008. Based on the info provided on this topic I figured I would wait years before she produced seeds. I have several normal S. palmettos I germinated when I first got in to seed germination in early 2008. None of them shows even the slightest sign of flowering in the near future. So, do the Sabal Lisa genetics also convey earlier maturation?

I heard somewhere that some Sabal palmetto grow at very different speeds than others (5 - 30+!? years to trunk depending on specimen/population). It probably works this way for flowering, too. Maybe the original Sabal 'lisa' palmetto's stock was fast (for Sabal palmetto) flowering. However, the 'Lisa' genetics may be more directly related to the age the palm flowers (part of the mutated 'lisa' gene?).

Interesting question btw.

[frienduvafrond]

A very young palmetto, seeding in NC.

[Walt]

2 hours ago, frienduvafrond said:

A very young palmetto, seeding in NC.

That almost looks like a Sabal etonia; I have some that look like that, especially the inflorescence. I've never seen a Sabal palmetto flower with no developed trunk. Also, the inflorescence is much more bushier, longer, etc,, with three orders of branching off the peduncle. In any event, if it is in fact Sabal palmetto, at least I now know they can flower at such a young age.

[PalmatierMeg]

Sabal Lisa update. Last year my largest Sabal Lisa - then ~10 years old - produced its first crop of seeds. My test germination rates, 30-40%, disappointed me so I chose not to sell the seeds, rather germinate them, then sell offspring. This year the palm flowered but nearly the whole crop aborted. I don't know what happened. I may get a few stray seeds but whether any of them will be viable is anyone's guess.

[frienduvafrond]

18 hours ago, Walt said:

That almost looks like a Sabal etonia; I have some that look like that, especially the inflorescence. I've never seen a Sabal palmetto flower with no developed trunk. Also, the inflorescence is much more bushier, longer, etc,, with three orders of branching off the peduncle. In any event, if it is in fact Sabal palmetto, at least I now know they can flower at such a young age.

I am no expert on sabals. There were only a few here 30 years ago, now thousands have been brought in from florida. It is possible some etonia have been shipped in?  The mother palm of the one I photographed is a good 25' tall. That would be taller than a etonia according to my research. 

[Walt]

51 minutes ago, frienduvafrond said:

I am no expert on sabals. There were only a few here 30 years ago, now thousands have been brought in from florida. It is possible some etonia have been shipped in?  The mother palm of the one I photographed is a good 25' tall. That would be taller than a etonia according to my research. 

I'm no expert on the Sabal genus myself, and looking at your photo, your palm does look like a young Sabal palmetto. If the seed came from a Sabal palmetto (the mother palm), then I guess that's what your flowering palm is. In nature, anything can  happen.

In my 20+ years living on my property (with lots and lots of native Sabal palmetto and Sabal etonia) I've never seen a Sabal palmetto flower with out some developed trunk. In fact, I've watched Sabal palmetto grow from no trunk up to 4-5 feet of trunk before they ever flowered. When I first moved here, I didn't know what a Sabal etonia palm was. There were many of them on my property, and I thought they were just juvenile Sabal palmetto. It wasn't until I bought a copy of Betrock's Landscape Palms that I learned about Sabal etonia. But one distinguishing characteristic is that Sabal palmetto produces inflorescence with three orders of branching, whereas Sabal etonia produces two (but sometimes three) orders of branching. 

I have a Sabal bermudana with no trunk, and it put out one inflorescence last year. I have five Sabal uresana in the ground, some with 4 feet of trunk. Only one, for the first time, put out an inflorescence this past spring.

You may want to email a photo of your palm to Don Hodel (his email address is at below link). Don is pretty much an  expert on the Sabal genus (nice guy, too. Always answers email inquiries). Don visited me about seven years ago to collect Sabal etonia seed from many different Sabal etonia palms I have growing naturally on my property. I would definitely ask Don if he's observed Sabal palmetto flowering before it produces a trunk. If you do contact Don (and I would advise it), post back and let the forum know what he said. 

http://ucanr.edu/sites/HodelPalmsTrees/?facultyid=1022

 

 

[JLeVert]

For me, Sabal estonia seeds are decidedly bigger and bluer than S. palmetto seeds.  The bloom stalks on S. etonia sort of drape on the ground.  I've never seen a palmetto do that.

I have a huge S. uresana that bloomed for the first time this year and no seeds were produced.  I saw a monster Butia odorata in Yulee, FL one time and you could tell that it had never even attempted to bloom.  Palms are sort of weird!  The photo is of the 'sterile' S. uresana.  Maybe it will produce another year.  I also have the green form of uresana.  It is much smaller and has been producing seeds for a couple of years now.