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ChrisA

Sabal palms in New Mexico

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ChrisA

I remember back in 2006 or 2008 driving to Las Cruces, NM (zone 8a) for work, that there were a number of juvenile Sabal palms lining the street that has all the sports fields on it back then.  I haven't been back there in a while but just thought to check it out on Google maps; and while I could not locate the ones I remembered I did see this gem from July 2015, 4 years following the big freeze event. To me it looks to be a Sabal palmetto based on the size of the crown. I see no evidence, from the picture, of any seed stalks.

 

What do you all make of it?  And do you know of any other large, trunked Sabal species in NM?  I believe I read that there were some in Carlsbad that perished in that same cold snap. 

Post any pics you've got!

 

Here is a link to the area on google maps:

https://www.google.com/maps/@32.2803731,-106.7484536,3a,58.7y,211.85h,87.35t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sDbyb83rAjq-uBqVkvE6Wkw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en

Sabal palmetto Las Cruces.png

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Mr.SamuraiSword
1 hour ago, ChrisA said:

I remember back in 2006 or 2008 driving to Las Cruces, NM (zone 8a) for work, that there were a number of juvenile Sabal palms lining the street that has all the sports fields on it back then.  I haven't been back there in a while but just thought to check it out on Google maps; and while I could not locate the ones I remembered I did see this gem from July 2015, 4 years following the big freeze event. To me it looks to be a Sabal palmetto based on the size of the crown. I see no evidence, from the picture, of any seed stalks.

 

What do you all make of it?  And do you know of any other large, trunked Sabal species in NM?  I believe I read that there were some in Carlsbad that perished in that same cold snap. 

Post any pics you've got!

 

Here is a link to the area on google maps:

https://www.google.com/maps/@32.2803731,-106.7484536,3a,58.7y,211.85h,87.35t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sDbyb83rAjq-uBqVkvE6Wkw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en

Sabal palmetto Las Cruces.png

theres another one in that picture to the right of the washingtonia robusta

better view of it here

https://www.google.com/maps/@32.2802024,-106.749368,3a,20y,190.26h,90.54t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sakQq7tqYNwliLiV4JNOcGg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en

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TexasColdHardyPalms

 Thats a palmetto.

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Palm crazy

Here something interesting I found on the net…. from the person how did the map…..In answer to the posters here: the graphic provided illustrates the prime palm tree growing zone in New Mexico. Outside this zone palms generally do not do well. Impressive palms. 

NewMexicoPalmTreeZone.gif

Edited by Palm crazy

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pin38
15 hours ago, Palm crazy said:

Here something interesting I found on the net…. from the person how did the map…..In answer to the posters here: the graphic provided illustrates the prime palm tree growing zone in New Mexico. Outside this zone palms generally do not do well. Impressive palms. 

NewMexicoPalmTreeZone.gif

Palms do well up in Truth or Consequences/Elephant Butte area as well. There are a couple very large filiferas there (in my avatar pic), and many other filifera/filibusta around town and the reservoir as well as a medium/large Phoenix (sylvestris/hybrid?). That area has a nice borderline 8b high desert climate and is protected by some mountains to the east. Places in-between like Hatch are more like 7b, and have palms that have suffered more cold damage, I'll find the Google Earth photo of an example.

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ChrisA

I agree, palms do best in Southern New Mexico. However both Carlsbad and Hobbs are subjected to extremely cold weather every few years due to blue northers running down the Great Plains.  You won't find may palms in Hobbs for example. Carlsbad does a little better, seems that the California fan palms do best and are most able to survive these extreme cold events.  Truth or Consequences should definitely be circled as well. Many W. robusta have died there over the years but California fan palms are a dependable staple as are Med. Fan palms.  There are several palms in Deming, although not a large number of large ones, which I attribute to lack of proper care and watering. I used to see a California Fan palm in Lordsburg, visible from I-10 looking north, but I haven't been able to locate this palm in over 10 years.  

I think Sabal uresana should be tried much more often in Southern N.M.  There used to be 2 at the Albuquerque biopark. They were planted around the time it originally opened, just along the glass wall of the Sonoran desert enclosure.  Unfortunately they were planted amongst a few Arizona Rosewoods which quickly took over the entire area and shaded them out.  The last time I was there I saw one frond still holding on from one individual, the other had perished.  It's been over 15 years! Imagine what they might have become if they'd been paid a little more care and attention.

We could use some global warming during NM winters! If we didn't get these extreme cold bursts as well as the normal cold of winter evenings and nights we could grow a heck of a lot more. I would LOVE to have Phoenix winters here....

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TexasColdHardyPalms

I grew up in hobbs and it wasnt palm friendly. There were 20+year old sabal palmettos in carlsbad but the 2011 winter killed every single one when they dropped below 0 two days in a row. Several were wrapped in that silver bubblewrap and still died. 

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ChrisA

Thanks for the details, I thought I remembered someone saying those Sabals had died.  It's a shame those events happen, it really puts a damper on the possibilities. If we could just punt three months out of the twelve we'd have some great palms in NM!

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pin38

I don't want to go back on my earlier promise, so here's palm carnage in Hatch. This town's 7b on the interactive usda zone map, it seems to be in a cold air drainage spot.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Hatch,+NM/@32.6672425,-107.1533749,3a,60y,34.06h,82.34t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1swvF1PtuIagfypTo97OhOHQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!4m5!3m4!1s0x86dfac37b8e3c689:0x4529aa57946febf8!8m2!3d32.6653572!4d-107.1530744!6m1!1e1

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ChrisA

There are some that made it if you take the highway towards Deming, the short cut.  Those ones you linked I don't think we're ever very well cared for.  They looked nice for a while, late 90's maybe?

 

image.png

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TexasColdHardyPalms

Mexican fan palms are barely zone 8B palms, let alone zone 7B.  Anything West of the Guadalupes will survive much longer and will not have the extreme temperate drops that they do from Carlsbad and Eastward into West Texas.  That cold air likes to ride right down the side of that range on a regular basis, which is why Hobbs/Roswell/Lubbock is much tougher to grow palms than ABQ.

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Desert DAC
On 4/6/2017, 7:57:06, pin38 said:

Palms do well up in Truth or Consequences/Elephant Butte area as well. There are a couple very large filiferas there (in my avatar pic), and many other filifera/filibusta around town and the reservoir as well as a medium/large Phoenix (sylvestris/hybrid?). That area has a nice borderline 8b high desert climate and is protected by some mountains to the east. Places in-between like Hatch are more like 7b, and have palms that have suffered more cold damage, I'll find the Google Earth photo of an example.

Agreed - ABQ 21+ years and Las Cruces and El Paso since, I've looked closely at natural and human-made landscapes. While I don't have climate data or plant sightings indicating 8b around T or C or Elephant Butte, maybe - my guess is 8b begins in a narrow thermal belt in Las Cruces (between Valley and Telshor) and in much of El Paso (except the upper valley, far E, and above 4500' in the higher neighborhoods). 

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Desert DAC
On 4/4/2017, 6:51:10, Mr.SamuraiSword said:

theres another one in that picture to the right of the washingtonia robusta

better view of it here

https://www.google.com/maps/@32.2802024,-106.749368,3a,20y,190.26h,90.54t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sakQq7tqYNwliLiV4JNOcGg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en

My camera is out; on the drive to my hike up Tortugas Mtn, I'll go by that Sabal and get a closer look. I knew they had to be fine here.

Thanks for the info!

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Desert DAC
On 4/5/2017, 4:00:35, Palm crazy said:

Here something interesting I found on the net…. from the person how did the map…..In answer to the posters here: the graphic provided illustrates the prime palm tree growing zone in New Mexico. Outside this zone palms generally do not do well. Impressive palms. 

NewMexicoPalmTreeZone.gif

Cool! This map is a start, but it hugs latitude too much and misses terrain, plains vs. intermountain (Rio Grande Valley), and temperatures.

A surprise to me was learning how Lordsburg is more like Silver City or Albuquerque than Las Cruces or El Paso in growing season, typical and extreme lows, plants in the wild or in town...exceptions are a few hotter days. Roswell and Hobbs are called a "bipolar climate" by locals, often warmer than most of NM until their winter cold fronts regularly slide down...typically drop their highs from 72 to 28, while in ABQ the drop is more 58 to 40. Add that up over a few winters, and not very "palmy".

As others said, T or C is a good palm climate. To that I would add where palms larger than Trachys can be counted on, the gateway heading south is T or C, Tularosa, and Fort Stockton TX (maybe Carlsbad NM). Exceptions are the southern mountains and cold spots like Hatch, NE and E Las Cruces (Metro Verde, etc), or parts of Alamogordo (Feb. 2011 at -10 to -15F in much of town).

Not many larger palms in my area, but enough variety to make the move worth it, and only a few winters where W. filifera gets brown fronds. El Paso is probably the gateway to decent Phoenix dactylifera.

 

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Desert DAC

.

Edited by Desert DAC
accidental double post - please delete

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Desert DAC
On 4/6/2017, 11:09:14, ChrisA said:

Thanks for the details, I thought I remembered someone saying those Sabals had died.  It's a shame those events happen, it really puts a damper on the possibilities. If we could just punt three months out of the twelve we'd have some great palms in NM!

True, but then visualize Tucson July-August. Your posts are refreshing to read, by the way!

Edited by Desert DAC
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Desert DAC

I followed the Google address and drove right to the Sabal spp. at NMSU in Las Cruces today, and it looks great. The palm stands about 20' tall or slightly more, it has some volunteers, and the best part is that it looks good in a rather xeric landscape with Buffalo Juniper, and paving expanses. Imagine how it might look even better in a wider planting area with more Sabals, and an understory more interesting than low junipers.

I'm not sure which Sabal it is, but I wish I knew - it seems S. mexicana has potential for sure, maybe S. uresana and S. palmetto.

Some pics:

DSCN8662-SML.jpg.e1644a41935faceada59125DSCN8672-SML.jpg.fc4edde19c0831dc3e1e58fDSCN8666-SML.jpg.73670a6fae0f01c1b74cb60DSCN8676-SML.jpg.6a3b6df5a84a74d31db62f2DSCN8674-SML.jpg.0be5b7d8abfcfeb45c2f90e

Edited by Desert DAC
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TexasColdHardyPalms

that's a palmetto.

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ChrisA

Nice Pics Desert DAC,  thanks for the compliment also. :)

 

Seeing the volunteers makes me want to drive down to pick some up!  I agree with Texas_ColdHardyPalms that it is a Sabal.  I found a really cool series of articles to help Identify sabal species, which includes a species key.  I think it was on the Southeast Palm Societies website somewhere in the Newsletters!?!  I will try to find it and post a link.

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Desert DAC

Thanks, all. After looking at more forums, the "boots" are indeed less symmetrical on S. palmetto (the Las Cruces / NMSU palm) than S. mexicana. 

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Desert DAC
On 4/10/2017, 3:40:22, ChrisA said:

Nice Pics Desert DAC,  thanks for the compliment also. :)

 

Seeing the volunteers makes me want to drive down to pick some up!  I agree with Texas_ColdHardyPalms that it is a Sabal.  I found a really cool series of articles to help Identify sabal species, which includes a species key.  I think it was on the Southeast Palm Societies website somewhere in the Newsletters!?!  I will try to find it and post a link.

When I was taking pics, the campus police drove by but just for my headlights being on. Not sure who one contacts there to be OK'd getting some volunteer plants.

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PalmTreeDude

I wish they would plant Sabal palmetto Moreno on the west coast. They would be great for coastal Oregon and Washington. 

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TexasColdHardyPalms

Sabal Anything > sabal palmetto.  True story.

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ChrisA

All,  here is the palm that's been referred to several times.  It grown near the Chimpanzee enclosure at the Albuquerque zoo.    It seems to have flowered this year (as well as last year), but seems to be sterile as the fruit develops with empty shells for seeds?  The top of the fronds is probably about 10-12 feet tall and fronds show zero damage from the winter.

 

What are your thoughts as to species? The inflorescence seems to be well contained within the crown so I am leaning towards S. Palmetto?

 

I'll try to attach photo soon.  For some reason getting an error on uploading a 3.7 mb photo...

-Chris

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ChrisA

Here are the pictures. Note the current year's inflorescence vs prior year. There are no seedling under this palm, unlike nearby S. minor that have several seedlings sprouting underneath. My shoe size is European size 42 (US 9.5) for scale of the trunk.

 

A word of note, I was unable to post using Internet Edge...  I converted my photos to JPG at ~400 KB and was able to upload using Google Chrome for the browser. Microsoft browsers are pure trash IMHO...

 

Palmetto10.jpg

Palmetto20.jpg

Palmetto30.jpg

Edited by ChrisA

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smithgn
On 4/9/2017, 8:49:11, Desert DAC said:

I followed the Google address and drove right to the Sabal spp. at NMSU in Las Cruces today, and it looks great. The palm stands about 20' tall or slightly more, it has some volunteers, and the best part is that it looks good in a rather xeric landscape with Buffalo Juniper, and paving expanses. Imagine how it might look even better in a wider planting area with more Sabals, and an understory more interesting than low junipers.

I'm not sure which Sabal it is, but I wish I knew - it seems S. mexicana has potential for sure, maybe S. uresana and S. palmetto.

Some pics:

DSCN8662-SML.jpg.e1644a41935faceada59125DSCN8672-SML.jpg.fc4edde19c0831dc3e1e58fDSCN8666-SML.jpg.73670a6fae0f01c1b74cb60DSCN8676-SML.jpg.6a3b6df5a84a74d31db62f2DSCN8674-SML.jpg.0be5b7d8abfcfeb45c2f90e

Pretty impressive palmetto for that area. Is this area any more humid than other areas in NM? I've always wondered how palmettos would do in drier/Mediterranean areas. I love the volunteers, I wish they wouldnt get trimmed and they'd let them grow! 

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ChrisA

From my perspective I wouldn't consider Las Cruces any more humid than Albuquerque, although Desert DAC might have a more detailed/accurate perspective since he's lived in both cities.

From what I've seen Albuquerque may be a tad more humid than Las Cruces in the winter as we more often receive the extra-tropical storms from the north when they make it as far south as NM. From Socorro southward they more often miss those storms and stay dry, windy and dusty while Albuquerque is getting light rain or snow. Summer seems very similar in both places humidity-wise, although Las Cruces tends to be at least 5 degrees warmer with a longer growing season.

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TexasColdHardyPalms
7 hours ago, ChrisA said:

Here are the pictures. Note the current year's inflorescence vs prior year. There are no seedling under this palm, unlike nearby S. minor that have several seedlings sprouting underneath. My shoe size is European size 42 (US 9.5) for scale of the trunk.

 

A word of note, I was unable to post using Internet Edge...  I converted my photos to JPG at ~400 KB and was able to upload using Google Chrome for the browser. Microsoft browsers are pure trash IMHO...

 

Palmetto10.jpg

Palmetto20.jpg

Palmetto30.jpg

This is a sabal mexicana aka texas sabal. The seeds will be twice the size of palmetto seeds. 

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TexasColdHardyPalms
3 hours ago, smithgn said:

Pretty impressive palmetto for that area. Is this area any more humid than other areas in NM? I've always wondered how palmettos would do in drier/Mediterranean areas. I love the volunteers, I wish they wouldnt get trimmed and they'd let them grow! 

I grew up in NM and there is no place in the state that would be considered humid whatsoever. Swamp coolers work fantastic year round and central air is not needed. 

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Fusca
On 4/13/2017, 7:29:19, Desert DAC said:

When I was taking pics, the campus police drove by but just for my headlights being on. Not sure who one contacts there to be OK'd getting some volunteer plants.

Desert DAC,

I wouldn't advise trying to transplant young Sabal volunteers - in my experience with S. mexicana, S. palmetto and some S. minor (and many others have shared a similar experience) the transplant dies a slow death unless you are able to get 100% of the roots without damage.  You'd probably be better off just starting seeds yourself and leave the volunteers to grow on their own.  The Sabals transplant very easily once they have a few feet of trunk.

Jon

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ChrisA

Thanks TxCHP,

 

If an S. mexicana then that's encouraging to see, especially because this palm was pretty unaffected by the -6 degree temps in 2011, of course it was a lot smaller back then so maybe the apical meristem was buried below ground level back then. I have no pictures of it from then however.

 

Haven't RGV specimens and those further north been subjected to VERY cold temperatures years ago in the southern half of TX?  I thought that Brownsville had even seen record lows of ~10F several years ago. Wikipedia shows the record at 12 degrees (records from 1878 to current from NOAA), while San Antonio has a recorded low down to 0F (same source records between 1875 and current).

 

I have zoomed in on my photo so you can see last years seeds, the seeds I brought home were not as large as those from specimens I saw in San Antonio a few years ago, but maybe that is because they were completely undeveloped...

 

 

Palmetto4.PNG

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TexasColdHardyPalms

Gotta remove the flesh and then gauge the size.  There are some Mexicana in the DFW area that are quite old. I don't know of any north of us or in West Texas that would have seen the extreme lows of the 1980's. Plenty of Mexicana in Austin that I would have to think were there all through the 80's that would have seen single digits.

The only trunking sabals I have seen die from the cold were palmetto in Carlsbad, NM in 2011.  I remember the ones near the car dealerships being there in the early 90's for sure and every last one of them died that year including the ones that were wrapped. I remember seeing -4 in my rental car out towards the airport and I don't think it went much above 5F that entire day.

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ChrisA

Yuck!  That was a despicable couple of days in NM!  I hope we don't see that again for another 40 years at least! 

 

As for the shells of the seeds, most had no seeds whatsoever when the husk was removed. I found one with a very small white seed-thing about an eighth of an inch in diameter. All the seeds I grabbed and felt were hollow.

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Desert DAC
On 8/17/2017, 5:02:51, ChrisA said:

From my perspective I wouldn't consider Las Cruces any more humid than Albuquerque, although Desert DAC might have a more detailed/accurate perspective since he's lived in both cities.

From what I've seen Albuquerque may be a tad more humid than Las Cruces in the winter as we more often receive the extra-tropical storms from the north when they make it as far south as NM. From Socorro southward they more often miss those storms and stay dry, windy and dusty while Albuquerque is getting light rain or snow. Summer seems very similar in both places humidity-wise, although Las Cruces tends to be at least 5 degrees warmer with a longer growing season.

Agreed, though some years like this monsoon season, the moisture is higher down here in LC, with dewpoints running 60F+ in the morning and 50-55 late afternoon...ABQ looks 5F lower most days I've watched. But typically over the year, dewpoint temps are 2F higher higher in Las Cruces than ABQ; air temperatures are 5F higher in LC than ABQ. That's about the standard "lapse rate" due to elevation of saturated air (dewpoint) and dry air (air temp.), at least what I recall from my Met classes in college.

A nuance that took me years to grasp was the summer to winter differences: summers are usually 2-3F warmer in LC than ABQ but winters are 7-8F warmer. Summer differences being less seems due more to elevation, with the airmass centered over the SW US; greater winter differences seem to be elevation plus latitude, with the airmass centered over N Mexico, ABQ getting in on the storm track more like ChrisA mentioned. I think he's right-on in his above quote. LC with less hours <32F and a 30 day longer growing season, plus a half-USDA zone warmer than ABQ, allow for more palm and interesting plants, but summers being a few weeks longer and barely warmer limits few plants from heat. A nice payback for greater diversity.

Not sure winter humidity is higher in ABQ, but maybe so depending on the storm track position? LC does miss more polar fronts that Socorro and esp. ABQ get.

Re: Sabal palmetto, if they are not in too cold of an area (z 8 at the coldest?), my guess is they're fairly tough to our low humidity, but maybe a different desert with even lower humidity like the Mojave (Las Vegas, St George) might be too much? I still want to try S. mexicana and S. uresana in LC and El Paso. I'm glad I've learned from others on this forum how to tell Sabal apart better!

- - -

Dewpoints need to be below 45-50F for swamp coolers to work efficiently; we're 50-60 in the July-Sept monsoon season. Even then, they cool outside air 12-18F depending on humidity, so the ABQ to El Paso range of 87-105F summer highs with 30-60F dewpoints, building temperatures cool to an OK 75F to a stuffy 87F, plus much added humidity in the monsoon. After 6 summers in ABQ w/ a swamp cooler, I gladly paid our builder $3500 extra for refrig. AC and paid the electric co. $140 / month more in the warm season to keep my house at 78F days with ceiling fans and 75F after work until bedtime. I was far more comfortable, though $14,000 lighter in the wallet after 15 years!

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ChrisA

Well said Desert DAC, having lived in both places you have a better understanding of LC's climate. Outside of winter storms in ABQ I believe LC is about the same humidity. In the spring humidity plummets in both places as the heat begins to build and high pressure rules the Great Basin. Our dew points can go below 0F at that time while temps rise into the 60's and 70's. As a result of the tight pressure gradient between low pressure systems in the American Plains and high pressure over the four corners area (not a very far distance) winds can gust over 60 mph which helps to quickly dry out any moisture the ground had.  I think this could also be a tough time for Sabal palms.

 

I'd encourage you to try Sabal Uresana in both LC and El Paso. There is one at the Albuquerque BioPark that has been there since it opened so it has survived a lot of cold weather. There were originally two planted together, but unfortunately the nearby Arizona Rosewood plants quickly outgrew and shaded them.  As of this summer the Rosewoods have been cut back or removed giving the remaining plant more sunlight.  Perhaps the evergreen rosewoods protected the remaining palm from the severe cold we've had, but I am sure that deep shade had deleterious effects on the ability of the palm to grow.  I also have one planted in my yard that has so far survived 1 winter with only a plastic greenhouse protecting the palm from the radiational cooling, although this added zero extra insulation during the cold nights. I am sure S. mexicana and uresana would do well in Las Cruces, especially if we can avoid the cold of 2011's catastrophy for the next 50 years!!

Once I get some time I will post updates of my two Sabal palms now that they've been in the ground a little over a year.


Take care,

Chris

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TexasColdHardyPalms

I am thinking the blue form uresana and mexicana will be the most cold hardy trunking sabals, but time and testing will tell for sure. I have a few that i sent out to amarillo which should really test them in the years to come.

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Desert DAC
On 8/28/2017, 1:01:09, ChrisA said:

Well said Desert DAC, having lived in both places you have a better understanding of LC's climate. Outside of winter storms in ABQ I believe LC is about the same humidity. In the spring humidity plummets in both places as the heat begins to build and high pressure rules the Great Basin. Our dew points can go below 0F at that time while temps rise into the 60's and 70's. As a result of the tight pressure gradient between low pressure systems in the American Plains and high pressure over the four corners area (not a very far distance) winds can gust over 60 mph which helps to quickly dry out any moisture the ground had.  I think this could also be a tough time for Sabal palms.

 

I'd encourage you to try Sabal Uresana in both LC and El Paso. There is one at the Albuquerque BioPark that has been there since it opened so it has survived a lot of cold weather. There were originally two planted together, but unfortunately the nearby Arizona Rosewood plants quickly outgrew and shaded them.  As of this summer the Rosewoods have been cut back or removed giving the remaining plant more sunlight.  Perhaps the evergreen rosewoods protected the remaining palm from the severe cold we've had, but I am sure that deep shade had deleterious effects on the ability of the palm to grow.  I also have one planted in my yard that has so far survived 1 winter with only a plastic greenhouse protecting the palm from the radiational cooling, although this added zero extra insulation during the cold nights. I am sure S. mexicana and uresana would do well in Las Cruces, especially if we can avoid the cold of 2011's catastrophy for the next 50 years!!

Once I get some time I will post updates of my two Sabal palms now that they've been in the ground a little over a year.


Take care,

Chris

I somehow missed that ABQ Biopark palm as S. mexicana...great pics and wow! Thanks. Looks very healthy, so I bet even better down here in LC / EP.

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    • PalmatierMeg
      By PalmatierMeg
      My Sabal miamiensis I germinated in 2015 from seeds I collected in Leu Garden, Orlando, has just finished ripening its crop of seeds for 2021 last week. I posted about this palm in 2020 because it has by far the largest seeds of any Sabal I have seen - twice as large as my first Sabal miamiensis I was gifted in 2008. See link below:
      https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/65324-sabal-miamiensis-leu-garden-huge-fruit-seeds/&do=findComment&comment=954404
      Photo 1:  Left) Six seeds of S. miamiensis 'Leu Garden' - compared to - Right) six seeds of my older S. miamiensis 'Original' (2020)

      The 2021 seeds are just as large as last year's and the mother palm flowered early this past spring weeks before any of my other Sabals, including my first miamiensis. Those seeds started ripening in August whereas other Sabal spp seeds won't ripen until late Oct. through Dec. When I posted the topic linked to above, it was suggested that this palm may be a hybrid of an S. miamiensis mother (from which I collected seeds in 2015) and a Sabal mexicana growing close by in Leu. In any case I have an excellent crop of seeds available and wonder whether PTers who experienced last winter's record cold in TX might find them worthy of growing for the future, esp. if they include mexicana genes. It is gratifying to see how much greater respect the Sabal genus has gained over the past few years. This hybrid has grown quickly and vigorously - for a Sabal - since I germinated its seed in 2015. No one has quantified how cold hardy S. miamiensis is as it is extinct in the wild and exists in only in botanical gardens and a few private collections. But I suspect its toughness will approach that of palmetto, perhaps even minor. See links regarding the history of this storied palm:
      https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/1627-sabal-miamiensis/&tab=comments#comment-24549
      https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/47965-does-sabal-miamiensis-sabal-palmetto-does-it-matter/&tab=comments#comment-736500
      There is much more to read about the (pure) species but little or nothing about possible S. miamiensis hybrids. If you are interested in trying this hybrid, read on.
      For Sale:
      Sabal miamiensis 'Leu Garden' x S. mexicana hybrid seeds: $0.25 each                     Minimum Purchase = $10.00
      Shipping = $6.00 for up to 200 seeds. For more, request quote           No shipping outside the US. No shipping to HI
      Payment via Paypal
      PM me if you are interested. Tell me how many seeds you want and I will respond with a quote. Give me your name/address to copy/paste on a mailing label. When you pay, tell me.
      NOTE: Please give me 24 hours to respond. After 24 hours, send me a civil reminder.
      Photos
      Cleaned/uncleaned seeds

      Mother Palm

       
    • KsLouisiana
      By KsLouisiana
      Hey experts! So question for y'all.  So my local landscape place has 10'-12' Sabals right now non regenerated for $425. Not a bad deal. I was wondering if y'all think its a good time to plant one mid September.  I have a perfect spot for one and really need one. Haha. Thoughts on if there's enough warmth left in the season in Southern Louisiana zone 9.  I guess it's similar to North or central Florida.  Thanks for the advice y'all!

    • Tennessee Palms
      By Tennessee Palms
      One of my Sabal Minors has completely different fronds from the other's. They are larger, stiffer, not as deeply divided, and they have strange folds. I'm beginning to wonder if it isn't a different sabal like sabal x brazoriensis. 
    • Palmy Pal
      By Palmy Pal
      History of Sabal Manteo
      Sabal ‘Manteo’ Is known to be a form of Sabal Minor that originates from Manteo, North Carolina. This special form of Sabal Minor used to grow widespread across Manteo NC but has recently been presumed extinct. There was thought to be a few palms of this form left in the wild but due to development in the area the few plants that were left are now gone. There are no known plants left in the wild of Sabal Manteo. Luckily, a handful of Sabal Manteo were saved from development sites and were planted in a mini garden dedicated to the Manteo form of Sabal Minor. The plants are owned and cared for by a local research center. I was granted permission to collect a handful of seeds from the protected Sabal Manteo plants they own. I am greatly honored to grow these seeds out and introduce this amazing form into cultivation. The mission is to not only get this form into cultivation but also to get it back into the wild in Manteo where it used to thrive in the sandy forestry. 
       
      Growing Information
      Sabal Manteo is a smaller, compact form of Sabal Minor that is thought to be one of the hardiest forms out there. It heavily differs from its neighbor Sabal ‘Cape Hatteras’ in many ways. The palm is a lot smaller than the Cape Hatteras form of Sabal Minor, the fronds are more stiff, and the fronds are more blue in coloration. This form could be even more hardy than the Hatteras form of Sabal Minor since it tends to get more chilly around Manteo. It is clear that this Sabal is a different form from its neighboring Cape Hatteras form due to its small compact size while the Cape Hatteras form is a giant form of Sabal Minor. This form has short petioles with wide stiff blades. The coloration of the fronds on this form is quite stunning. They have a great blue azul tinge to them that is a very noticeable shade of blue. As of now there are no known plants of Sabal Manteo in cultivation. This form is very unique and extremely rare. As of now the handful of plants in the garden are the only plants of this form that exist. 
       
      There is not much if not any information of this form on the internet and I was lucky to gain information about it from the owners of the last Sabal Manteo palms left. There is nothing better to do than share the knowledge of this palm to the public to make more people educated about this amazing form. Hopefully this palm will gain the attention it deserves and become more popular. I hope this form will someday be reintroduced into the wild and thrive like they used to on the island of Manteo. I plan on sending seedlings of this form to experienced palm growers to distribute the form around and to bring it into cultivation big time. With such little conservation efforts such as this case, the plants can be saved from extinction.
       
      Article written by @PalmyPal. All Rights Reserved.
      (Pictures of Sabal 'Manteo' Included)



    • PalmatierMeg
      By PalmatierMeg
      When we moved to Cape Coral 28 years ago, the nearest house on our side of the street was 1/4 mile away. Slowly over the years houses sprouted in the neighborhood until by 2011 when we bought our Garden Lot, only two building lots remained on either side of us. I planted my World Famous Sabal Row in 2009 with various Sabals I germinated to block the view of the abandoned new house to the east of us (remember the Great Recession?) Also, in 2009 I decided to beautify one half of the berm nearest our house on the Isabelle Canal. I planted green and silver Serenoa repens and what would become a very large Sabal (maritima, I think) that I'd germinated myself. We've also added Fakahatchee grass, a Clusia (autograph tree), bottlebrush trees. We knew someday someone would actually build on the end lot even though it faced Osama bin Laden's FL Summer Vacation Compound, aka an LCEC electrical substation.
      Well, that day came bright and early Friday. Dump trucks delivered piles of rubble-infested fill dirt. In the afternoon earth moving equipment arrived to scalp the lot and begin site development in preparation for building and seawall installation. My beautiful landscaping is doomed for destruction on Monday. I'm particularly saddened about the silver Serenoa and that beautiful flowering Sabal. Frankly, I'd rather have the palms than new neighbors but the decision isn't mine.
      I took the following photos of the doomed palms on the berm. Even one of the construction workers lamented the fate of the beautiful Sabal. Join me in wishing these poor palms eternity in Palm Valhalla
      Views of the berm from street side

      Doomed Large Sabal (maritima?)

      Palm Eating Earth Mover


      The only upside to all this carnage is that the earth mover will also eat the detested, invasive 100' Australian pines that infest that lot and drop needles and seed capsules all over our property.

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