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Beccariophoenix alfredii cold hardiness

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Insomniac411
On 1/21/2018, 12:04:03, Kekoanui said:

 

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On 5/24/2017, 7:57:17, Insomniac411 said:

How did you make out?

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Bill H2DB

   Where in  North Florida  are you , ( if you don't mind ) . 

Sorry if I have missed that .

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Insomniac411
2 hours ago, Bill H2DB said:

   Where in  North Florida  are you , ( if you don't mind ) . 

Sorry if I have missed that .

Ponte Vedra Florida midway between Jacksonville and St. Augstine.

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RedRabbit
2 hours ago, Insomniac411 said:

Update on B.Alfredii,  we had a really nasty cold snap here in  northern Florida and I'm dealing with the aftermath. Lost my Royal Palm which was more my fault than the weather. We had 2 cold snaps for several days each down to the mid-upper 20s. Alfredii shows signs of cold burn, but appears to be healthy.  I'll just have to wait for it to grow out.  

Not bad at all! I'm guessing your area saw about 26f and I would have thought that would do a lot more damage. Thanks for sharing!

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Fusca
On 4/21/2017, 2:03:49, _Keith said:

I stand corrected.  Not in that alfredii is not a Zone 9a plant because it certainly is not a Zone 9a plant.  But it does appear I have 1 survivor.   To my astonishment one is throwing a spear.   Can't say for sure it'll make the summer, but it is not dead yet.

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Keith, did your B. alfredii survive?  I hope so!

Jon

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Lou-StAugFL

You can see the B. Alfredii has no frond burn on either tree here in St. Augustine, however, the Archontophoenix cunninghamiana has some minor frond burn.  The frond on the right is not burned it was on its way out before the freeze.  Just kept it on so I could tie the fronds up for some additional protection of the central bud.

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_Keith

No doubt lost the last one for sure.   Two killer freezes, plus snow.   Last freeze ultimate low of 17,  Coldest it has been here in 28 years.

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AnTonY
On 1/21/2018, 11:26:44, Kekoanui said:

I can't help but think there is a difference between 9A along the Gulf Coast and 9A Atlantic Coast.  These are definitely the coldest temps these palms have seen. Do these palms immediately show some damage and then slowly start to decline? They are completely unscathed!  Amazing plants regardless.

Is there? I do know that the Gulf Coast gets more winter rain, but not sure of any other differentiating factors.

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quaman58
41 minutes ago, _Keith said:

No doubt lost the last one for sure.   Two killer freezes, plus snow.   Last free ultimate low of 17,  Coldest it has been here in 28 years.

Keith, you are one persevering guy. Sorry for the loss. And the cold.

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_Keith
6 minutes ago, quaman58 said:

Keith, you are one persevering guy. Sorry for the loss. And the cold.

This has bee a tough decade freezes and water wise, as in far too much of each.  I'll continue to nurse along the many landscape plantings I have on these 3 acres, but I am turning my attention back to growing organic high quality food.  Haven't seen my Brix refractometer in years, but out it will come again.

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Jason-Palm king
On 1/28/2018, 9:13:59, Insomniac411 said:

Update on B.Alfredii,  we had a really nasty cold snap here in  northern Florida and I'm dealing with the aftermath. Lost my Royal Palm which was more my fault than the weather. We had 2 cold snaps for several days each down to the mid-upper 20s. Alfredii shows signs of cold burn, but appears to be healthy.  I'll just have to wait for it to grow out.  20180128_090256-747x1328.thumb.jpg.d1b57

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How are your trees doing now in April ??

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Insomniac411
23 hours ago, Jason-Palm king said:

How are your trees doing now in April ??

It browned up and I couldn't look at it like that so I gave it a haircut. Basically cut the burnt edges. I have some nice green shoots coming though. 

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GottmitAlex

So the general consensus re B. alfredii hardiness is:

It's a California 9A+ palm (lack of humidity gives it an edge.)

It's a Florida 9B+ palm.

 

 

 

 

 

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Afpotic6

Late in the discussion from St. Augustine, FL. I am located in the center of Anastasia Island near the 2 miles south of the Bridge of Lyons and a little less than 1 mile from the ocean and the intercoastal.  

I’ve been experimenting with two in different areas of my yard and planted over 3 years ago as 3 gal plants. One is under irrigation and planted close to my house (see mages below). The other near the drip line of a tree without irrigation. 

We dropped to 27 degrees for two nights after no frost or freeze in prior years. The image is the larger of the two and over 7 feet tall with no freeze or frost damage and left uncovered. The non-irrigated palm is smaller but once again with no damage. 

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sonoranfans
11 hours ago, GottmitAlex said:

So the general consensus re B. alfredii hardiness is:

It's a California 9A+ palm (lack of humidity gives it an edge.)

It's a Florida 9B+ palm.

 

 

 

 

 

I think this is about right, but remember a cold 9a is 20 degrees.  One of the things to remember here on palmtalk is that the local reported temp by posters (or thermometers not near the palm) may report a lower temp than the plant actually sees. Palms under overhead canopy can be 5 degrees warmer than out in the open if the wind is still and its a radiational event.  Also younger plants and plants without established roots are going to be more sensitive.  then there is genetic variability within the species.  Also greatly effecting cold tolerance is time at a cold temp before warming.  I saw royals survive 21 degrees in arizona in a radiational event that lasted just a few hours below 28F and it was dry. this doesnt mean royals are zone 9a palms in arizona. Also closeness to a heated structure(house, office building) can provide 2-5 degrees of warming.

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Afpotic6
11 hours ago, Afpotic6 said:

Late in the discussion from St. Augustine, FL. I am located in the center of Anastasia Island  2 miles south of the Bridge of Lions and a little less than 1 mile from the ocean and the intercoastal.  

I’ve been experimenting with two in different areas of my yard and planted over 3 years ago as 3 gal plants. One is under irrigation and planted close to my house (see mages below). The other near the drip line of a tree without irrigation. 

We dropped to 27 degrees for two nights after no frost or freeze in prior years. The image is the larger of the two and over 7 feet tall with no freeze or frost damage and left uncovered. The non-irrigated palmis smaller but once again with no damage. 

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Afpotic6

I agree with Tom. The reason for placing them in different areas of my yard was to test their hardiness based on location and exposure in my yard.

The 27 (26.4) degree temperature stated in my post for the larger B. alfredii off the corner of my house is accurate. Due to the composition of the hardy board siding, it is possible that some heat was retained from the previous day, but most likely was not a factor. The temperature remained in the upper 20’s for over 7 hours. At its coldest reading, winds dropped to less than 5 mph. By contrast, typically the temperature away from the house can be 1-2 degrees colder depending on tree canopy in the yard. 

I have found due to my location on Anastasia Island, our temps may be as much as 3-4 degrees warmer than just across the inter-coastal on the mainland and 6-8 miles north of St. Augustine. 

It was interesting to note that some detailed hardiness maps place the area along the coast at 9B (rather than 9A) due to Its proximity to the ocean which may expIain why I have noted several plants growing here as well as in Orlando which is a solid 9B. 

Maybe I should just admit that where I really want to live to grow more interesting tropical palms and plants is is in zone 10. 

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GottmitAlex
53 minutes ago, Afpotic6 said:

Maybe I should just admit that where I really want to live to grow more interesting tropical palms and plants is is in zone 10. 

Jawohl.

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Lou-StAugFL

Mine looked fine all winter after the freeze, not even any bronzing of the fronds,  still totally green.  But once spring came you can see the new growth was damaged but looks like they are going to grow out fine after the first damaged new frond of the year.

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RedRabbit
34 minutes ago, Lou-StAugFL said:

Mine looked fine all winter after the freeze, not even any bronzing of the fronds,  still totally green.  But once spring came you can see the new growth was damaged but looks like they are going to grow out fine after the first damaged new frond of the year.

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Mine did the exact same thing! Very weird to see the spear take some damage while the rest of the palm went unscathed for the most part. 

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Walt

I wonder if lots of water or heavy dew gravitated down and into the meristem, then froze, causing bud rot of the new developing fronds? I say this as the meristem is one of the more insulated parts of the palm, in terms of exposure to the cold air, and one would think would be the last part of the palm to see cold damage.

Any palm that I ever had with bud rot damage always had the palm fronds browned and severely damaged. In any case, I think the palm should grow out of its condition.

On the other hand, I've had palms (mainly zone 10+ species, like majesty, coconut, etc.) that were severely cold damaged, and they never grew normally after that. They grew new fronds, but at a rate 1/4 or less than their normal growth output. Some hung on for several years, but finally croaked.

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Tomas

According to Ornamental Palm Horticulture, fig. 3.1., the cold resistance varies a lot in Trachycarpus fortunei, the most tender part being the spear zone just above the meristem, and the meristem itself being much cold hardier.  So the damage on the new leaf emerging was the spear hit by the cold and not the meristem.

I also doubt that any liquid can reach the meristem zone that is very tightly filled with the new leaves and the spear.

My personal conviction, would be interested in other opinions.

Tomas

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kutsalangemon

Does this kind can grow in Mediterranean coast of Turkey? Is it suitable for Mediterranean climate?

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gilles06

Yes you can grow it in mediteranean climate. The problem will be the frost in winter. If you can grow howea try beccariophoenix alfredii.

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Insomniac411

While outside today figured I'd add an updated photo. Nice new spears growing but as far as I'm concerned, this tree is growing super slow. Putting out maybe 2 new spears since I planted it over a year ago.

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Insomniac411

Another angle

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pj_orlando_z9b
1 hour ago, Insomniac411 said:

While outside today figured I'd add an updated photo. Nice new spears growing but as far as I'm concerned, this tree is growing super slow. Putting out maybe 2 new spears since I planted it over a year ago.

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It looks healthy though. I planted this one in March and its pushing out its 4th spear. Its smaller but I would think that would mean slower growth from what I understand of them. 

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DoomsDave

One of my favorite palms!

Mi tres amigos took 25 F one night in 2013 January.

Not a scratch!

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GottmitAlex
On 8/5/2018, 2:01:22, Insomniac411 said:

While outside today figured I'd add an updated photo. Nice new spears growing but as far as I'm concerned, this tree is growing super slow. Putting out maybe 2 new spears since I planted it over a year ago.

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A very nice specimen

Yes, the B. alfredii book is still being penned. It is a recently discovered species. In these past 15 years, no alfredii outside of habitat has produced any seed.

It may just take 20+ years for this to happen. Who knows. However, its striking resemblance to the Cocos nucifera is remarkable. And they're 5C hardier than cocos. Hence their appeal. Yours is growing beautifully.

:greenthumb:

 

 

 

 

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sonoranfans

Seeing how many are planted in part shade, Im not surprisedsome people think they are slow.  they are much slower in shade.  Herre are two palms that were planted at the same time as 3 gallon sized plants in august 2011.  the first was in mostly shade till last year when I cut out overhead canopy, its about 11' overall.  The second was put in full sun is about 20' overall and holds more than twice the leaves inn the crown and the base is about 2x as thick.  So yes, in shade they are slow, but in full sun they are about 3/4 the speed of bismarckia.  I have a third in part shade and its a few feet taller than the small one that was planted in mostly shade.  If you want it to be faster, plant in full sun.

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sonoranfans

Seeing how many are planted in part shade, Im not surprised some people think they are slow.  they are much slower in shade.  Herre are two palms that were planted at the same time as 3 gallon sized plants in august 2010.  the first was in mostly shade till last year when I cut out overhead canopy, its about 11' overall.  The second was put in full sun is about 20' overall and holds more than twice the leaves inn the crown and the base is about 2x as thick.  So yes, in shade they are slow, but in full sun they are about 3/4 the speed of bismarckia.  I have a third in part shade and its a few feet taller than the small one that was planted in mostly shade.  If you want it to be faster, plant in full sun.

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Chris Chance

Here's an update on mine. We hit 28 last month and no damage once again. I really do think once these get larger they can handle heat and frost much better. At the moment this one is fully exposed and took 110 degree heat without an issue last summer. Definitely one of my favorite palms in my garden. 

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enigma99
19 hours ago, Chris Chance said:

Here's an update on mine. We hit 28 last month and no damage once again. I really do think once these get larger they can handle heat and frost much better. At the moment this one is fully exposed and took 110 degree heat without an issue last summer. Definitely one of my favorite palms in my garden. 

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beautiful!

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howfam
On ‎3‎/‎20‎/‎2017 at 3:32 PM, sonoranfans said:

Just to clarify, I never heard anyone report that frost plus above freezing temps caused damage, mine had no problem with that.  It was a long sub 28-30 degree with frost that caused the defoliation.  34 degrees and frost shouldnt be an issue for this palm.  And once the get some size I havent heart of what the cold tolerance would be.  Years ago this discussion( with different people) was pretty long and some conclusions were that.

1) its a 9B palm

2) hard frosts of any length(below freezing) could be a problem with defoliation and in a few colder cases, death.

3) there may be different genetic groups in play with respect to BA cold tolerance, some believed the "purple stem" variety to be more cold tolerant.  Not sure where that ended up.

4) they dont like being wet in the roots when its cold, you dont plant this palm next to and in the same soil mix as an archrontophoenix if you want best results.  Its one of my most dry tolerant feather palms(based on irrigation failures which coincided with dry spells of 30-60 days).

5)  they are not nutrient pigs, no obvious nutrient sensitivities like kentiopsis O, phoenix rupicola, teddy bears which are somewhat sensitive to Fe Mg/CA

6) when mature, BA is a BIG palm, its a beast before it trunks and of course likely after.  I placed mine too close to another palm(9') and had to remove it.   The palm in this pic was almost completely deoliated in dec 2010 as a small 3 gallon size pinnate palm.

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Is there in fact a purple stem variety that might be more hardy, similar to Livistona saribus green petiole being hardier than the red one? Somebody please verify. This would be worth finding out if it means 2 varieties to choose from.

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