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Beccariophoenix alfredii cold hardiness


topwater

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On 10/14/2019 at 4:59 AM, OC2Texaspalmlvr said:

This is very encouraging information,  but makes me go back to why they're not grown in the gulf coast =/ 

Hey TJ,

I believe the problem with Parajubaea is a combination of factors - they don't like high humidity, hot summer days with warm summer nights (insufficient cool-down), and cold/rainy winters.  P. sunkha is supposed to be more tolerant of humidity than the other Parajubaea species but still doesn't handle the Gulf Coast cold winter rains very well.  Our extreme winter lows and summer highs don't seem to be the problem for them.  I've been advised that P. sunkha  might  do OK here in western part of SA where it's not as humid as the east side and much less humid than Houston and not as much cold rain in winter, but we tend to get colder winter low temps which will push their limits.  The other species would not make it here or there for very long.

Jon

Jon Sunder

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2 hours ago, Fusca said:

I believe the problem with Parajubaea is a combination of factors - they don't like high humidity, hot summer days with warm summer nights (insufficient cool-down), and cold/rainy winters.

Cold rainy winters i think is the biggest problem for subtropical palms out my way. Im hoping Butia x PJs hybrids will be the ticket here =) gotta get in touch with Patric !!!

T J 

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5 hours ago, Fusca said:

Hey TJ,

I believe the problem with Parajubaea is a combination of factors - they don't like high humidity, hot summer days with warm summer nights (insufficient cool-down), and cold/rainy winters.  P. sunkha is supposed to be more tolerant of humidity than the other Parajubaea species but still doesn't handle the Gulf Coast cold winter rains very well.  Our extreme winter lows and summer highs don't seem to be the problem for them.  I've been advised that P. sunkha  might  do OK here in western part of SA where it's not as humid as the east side and much less humid than Houston and not as much cold rain in winter, but we tend to get colder winter low temps which will push their limits.  The other species would not make it here or there for very long.

Jon

What are your average winter temps and how much rain do you get in winter? I'm just curious. Our summers always cool down at night well below 20C (68F) but I thought we had cool wet winters which all my Parajubaeas seem to do well with.

Millbrook, "Kinjarling" Noongar word meaning "Place of Rain", Rainbow Coast, Western Australia 35S. Warm temperate. Csb Koeppen Climate classification. Cool nights all year round.

 

 

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13 hours ago, Tyrone said:

What are your average winter temps and how much rain do you get in winter? I'm just curious. Our summers always cool down at night well below 20C (68F) but I thought we had cool wet winters which all my Parajubaeas seem to do well with.

Hi Tyrone,

I've only lived here in San Antonio, Texas a bit over 2 years myself, but according to the US Climate Data website:

                          Average Daytime High                Average Overnight Low         Average Rainfall

December                   64°F   (17.8°C)                             41°F   (4.9°C)                 1.97"  (50 mm)

January                       62°F   (16.7°C)                             39°F  (3.7°C)                  1.65" (42 mm)

February                     67°F   (19.5°C)                             42°F  (5.8°C)                  1.73" (44 mm)

 

Of course here the temperatures fluctuate quite a bit with cold fronts that come through so the sudden change in temperature is probably another factor.  Usually the rain we get is triggered by the cold fronts that bring the ultimate lows.  My first winter here we had a very unusual snowfall in Dec. 2017 and the next month we had 2 consecutive nights of 20°F (-6.7°C) and 26°F (-3.3°C) following a rain but only 2 other nights got below freezing.  From what I was told the previous winter had a low of 18°F (-7.8°C).  Interesting to hear that your Parajubaeas do well with your wet winters.  Our summer temps rarely cool down below 75°F (23.9°C) at night following daytime temps often at or above 100°F (37.8°C).

Jon

Jon Sunder

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8 hours ago, Fusca said:

Hi Tyrone,

I've only lived here in San Antonio, Texas a bit over 2 years myself, but according to the US Climate Data website:

                          Average Daytime High                Average Overnight Low         Average Rainfall

December                   64°F   (17.8°C)                             41°F   (4.9°C)                 1.97"  (50 mm)

January                       62°F   (16.7°C)                             39°F  (3.7°C)                  1.65" (42 mm)

February                     67°F   (19.5°C)                             42°F  (5.8°C)                  1.73" (44 mm)

 

Of course here the temperatures fluctuate quite a bit with cold fronts that come through so the sudden change in temperature is probably another factor.  Usually the rain we get is triggered by the cold fronts that bring the ultimate lows.  My first winter here we had a very unusual snowfall in Dec. 2017 and the next month we had 2 consecutive nights of 20°F (-6.7°C) and 26°F (-3.3°C) following a rain but only 2 other nights got below freezing.  From what I was told the previous winter had a low of 18°F (-7.8°C).  Interesting to hear that your Parajubaeas do well with your wet winters.  Our summer temps rarely cool down below 75°F (23.9°C) at night following daytime temps often at or above 100°F (37.8°C).

Jon

Yes, that’s quite an extreme climate. The absolute lows after rain would be an issue, as well as the summer heat, especially at night for Parajubaea.

I have similar winter maximums as you, but with warmer winter nights (6-8C) with only light frosts in comparison. Our summers are way cooler especially at night.

I find many Andean things do OK here.

Beccariophoenix alfredii will do well with your heat but the absolute winter lows could be an issue.

Millbrook, "Kinjarling" Noongar word meaning "Place of Rain", Rainbow Coast, Western Australia 35S. Warm temperate. Csb Koeppen Climate classification. Cool nights all year round.

 

 

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Sorry for a dumb question, but I have a friend who lives in an area which is zone 9 on the maps and where Phoenix roebellini are not uncommon. How does Beccariophoenix compare to that species?

Woodville, FL

zone 8b

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38 minutes ago, redbeard917 said:

Sorry for a dumb question, but I have a friend who lives in an area which is zone 9 on the maps and where Phoenix roebellini are not uncommon. How does Beccariophoenix compare to that species?

I would guess that P roebellini is a little hardier than B alfredii.  

Westchase | 9b 10a  ◆  Nokomis | 10a  ◆  St. Petersburg | 10a 10b 

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5 hours ago, RedRabbit said:

I would guess that P roebellini is a little hardier than B alfredii.  

No, the leaves of B. alfredi are a lot frost hardier then P. roebellenii. 

 

Carambeí, 2nd tableland of the State Paraná , south Brazil.

Alt:1030m. Native palms: Queen, B. eriospatha, B. microspadix, Allagoptera leucocalyx , A.campestris, Geonoma schottiana, Trithrinax acanthocoma. Subtr. climate, some frosty nights. No dry season. August: driest month. Rain:1700mm

 

I am seeking for cold hardy palms!

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37 minutes ago, Alberto said:

No, the leaves of B. alfredi are a lot frost hardier then P. roebellenii. 

 

Yes I agree. I had a very cold winter period in 2017 which the locals said was a once in 30 year event and my roebs were significantly damaged but the alfrediis though damaged were only tinged a bit. All made it through and grew out of it. They may have seen -3C at a guess.

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Millbrook, "Kinjarling" Noongar word meaning "Place of Rain", Rainbow Coast, Western Australia 35S. Warm temperate. Csb Koeppen Climate classification. Cool nights all year round.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Tyrone said:

Yes I agree. I had a very cold winter period in 2017 which the locals said was a once in 30 year event and my roebs were significantly damaged but the alfrediis though damaged were only tinged a bit. All made it through and grew out of it. They may have seen -3C at a guess.

This is good to know as roebelini are a plenty here even tho marginal at times but still prevalent here. 

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T J 

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It certainly isn’t much to look at, but I believe I bought this as B.Alfredii. Is this a correct ID or not? This picture is of it post-winter where we took -7C and numerous frosts. I feel as though I must have misremembered as this would be terrific hardiness for Beccariophoenix. 

2B1543D5-FE17-489E-B2FB-FCCA8B4B2883.jpeg

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  • 1 year later...

I live in Northern California, near the delta where the climate is 9b with maybe one freakish low winter night at 29 degrees. My seedling is doing just fine. It appears to not like large amounts of water.  As it has developed some black spot due to over head watering. but it continues to push out new fronds. especially in the summer months.  

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  • 3 months later...
On 4/26/2021 at 9:36 AM, EJ;) said:

I live in Northern California, near the delta where the climate is 9b with maybe one freakish low winter night at 29 degrees. My seedling is doing just fine. It appears to not like large amounts of water.  As it has developed some black spot due to over head watering. but it continues to push out new fronds. especially in the summer months.  

Ya don’t give a Beccariophoenix a. any overhead water. Many reports indicate they don’t like it. I’ve completely avoided overhead water with mine in Vallejo and it’s doing good so far. (Old pic)

BE56E970-CB24-49FF-B5F1-254A101D5484.jpeg

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16 hours ago, ExperimentalGrower said:

Ya don’t give a Beccariophoenix a. any overhead water. Many reports indicate they don’t like it. I’ve completely avoided overhead water with mine in Vallejo and it’s doing good so far. (Old pic)

I've read the same thing about Alfredii.  But they are grown in big fields with sprinklers-on-a-stick that do overhead irrigation.  And when grown in FL they get overhead irrigation with the daily torrential thunderstorms.  My seedlings from Fisheyeaquaculture are just going pinnate, and they've been in full AM sun with filtered PM sun.  They are in my nursery area with a dripline-sprayer-on-a-stick covering the whole area.  I am guessing (but don't know) that the issues with overhead irrigation may be fungal infections with overhead irrigation and not enough direct sun?

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9 hours ago, Merlyn said:

I've read the same thing about Alfredii.  But they are grown in big fields with sprinklers-on-a-stick that do overhead irrigation.  And when grown in FL they get overhead irrigation with the daily torrential thunderstorms.  My seedlings from Fisheyeaquaculture are just going pinnate, and they've been in full AM sun with filtered PM sun.  They are in my nursery area with a dripline-sprayer-on-a-stick covering the whole area.  I am guessing (but don't know) that the issues with overhead irrigation may be fungal infections with overhead irrigation and not enough direct sun?

It seems to be an issue with tap water, not rain. Same issue it seems like for Ravenea rivularis, but worse for that species. 

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6 minutes ago, ExperimentalGrower said:

It seems to be an issue with tap water, not rain. Same issue it seems like for Ravenea rivularis, but worse for that species. 

FYI - I am on well water with a bleach injection pump.  That's to precipitate out the extremely high sulfur and manganese that arrived after 3 hurricanes in I think 2004.  The resulting chlorine ppm is really low, much less than conventional tap water.

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3 minutes ago, Merlyn said:

FYI - I am on well water with a bleach injection pump.  That's to precipitate out the extremely high sulfur and manganese that arrived after 3 hurricanes in I think 2004.  The resulting chlorine ppm is really low, much less than conventional tap water.

I wish I was pumping from a well! The water here is mixed with a lot of chloramine. Unfortunately it doesn’t evaporate like chlorine, and the plants don’t like it. I’ve got a mobile camper water filter on my line and that does seem to help.

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On 8/6/2021 at 1:27 PM, ExperimentalGrower said:

Ya don’t give a Beccariophoenix a. any overhead water. Many reports indicate they don’t like it. I’ve completely avoided overhead water with mine in Vallejo and it’s doing good so far. (Old pic)

BE56E970-CB24-49FF-B5F1-254A101D5484.jpeg

Hear, hear!

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5 year high 42.2C/108F (07/06/2018)--5 year low 4.6C/40.3F (1/19/2023)--Lowest recent/current winter: 4.6C/40.3F (1/19/2023)

 

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On 8/7/2021 at 6:02 AM, Merlyn said:

I've read the same thing about Alfredii.  But they are grown in big fields with sprinklers-on-a-stick that do overhead irrigation.  And when grown in FL they get overhead irrigation with the daily torrential thunderstorms.  My seedlings from Fisheyeaquaculture are just going pinnate, and they've been in full AM sun with filtered PM sun.  They are in my nursery area with a dripline-sprayer-on-a-stick covering the whole area.  I am guessing (but don't know) that the issues with overhead irrigation may be fungal infections with overhead irrigation and not enough direct sun?

yep mine had been getting overhead grass sprinkler water 2x a week for years two also have micro sprayers nearby.  They (3) now have grown well above the "overhead water stage".  They grew from a size that was a little smaller than the posters palm size(3 gallon) to ~17-27' overall.  Might be a problem with hardness salt deposits in low rain/ low humidity areas.  When I was out west I only watered overhead on waxy palms like armatas and bizzies as the leaf wax is waterproof and protects against salt induced dehydration.  Salt deposits from water could dehydrate non waxy palms.  In arizona some of the non wxy palms were damaged by overhead, I learned a lesson.  Here, I keep water off any butia/jubaea mix and also archie sp. satakentia, etc. 

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Formerly in Gilbert AZ, zone 9a/9b. Now in Palmetto, Florida Zone 9b/10a??

 

Tom Blank

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On 8/10/2021 at 12:19 PM, sonoranfans said:

yep mine had been getting overhead grass sprinkler water 2x a week for years two also have micro sprayers nearby.  They (3) now have grown well above the "overhead water stage".  They grew from a size that was a little smaller than the posters palm size(3 gallon) to ~17-27' overall.  Might be a problem with hardness salt deposits in low rain/ low humidity areas.  When I was out west I only watered overhead on waxy palms like armatas and bizzies as the leaf wax is waterproof and protects against salt induced dehydration.  Salt deposits from water could dehydrate non waxy palms.  In arizona some of the non wxy palms were damaged by overhead, I learned a lesson.  Here, I keep water off any butia/jubaea mix and also archie sp. satakentia, etc. 

That makes sense if it's the salts and other chemicals in the water.  A lot of FL nurseries are on wells, because pulling from municipal water is insanely expensive and potentially bad for the plants.  I guess that could explain why it didn't make sense that "overhead water" would be a problem here in FL.

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51 minutes ago, Merlyn said:

That makes sense if it's the salts and other chemicals in the water.  A lot of FL nurseries are on wells, because pulling from municipal water is insanely expensive and potentially bad for the plants.  I guess that could explain why it didn't make sense that "overhead water" would be a problem here in FL.

when salts are present in the water, watering in hot low humidity environments will leave salts on leaves under conditions of quick evaporation.  In arizona, if you watered in the daytime, salt buildup on even soil or rocks would be fast as evaporation is massive and the water was hard.  In florida the humidity will generally slow the evaporation so much it wont matter for most palms as salts are permitted to drain down slowly with the water.  If salts are deposited, they will draw water outside the plant by the chemical potential differential.  IF the leaf cuticle is wax covered water wont penetrate outside in nor inside out, thus preventing desication by this method.  My blue brahea armatas loved overhead water -after sunset- in the arizona heat.  there are other reasons that overhead water can be detrimental to your palms, including fungus infections.

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Formerly in Gilbert AZ, zone 9a/9b. Now in Palmetto, Florida Zone 9b/10a??

 

Tom Blank

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