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Beccariophoenix alfredii cold hardiness


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2 hours ago, Bill H2DB said:

   Where in  North Florida  are you , ( if you don't mind ) . 

Sorry if I have missed that .

Ponte Vedra Florida midway between Jacksonville and St. Augstine.

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2 hours ago, Insomniac411 said:

Update on B.Alfredii,  we had a really nasty cold snap here in  northern Florida and I'm dealing with the aftermath. Lost my Royal Palm which was more my fault than the weather. We had 2 cold snaps for several days each down to the mid-upper 20s. Alfredii shows signs of cold burn, but appears to be healthy.  I'll just have to wait for it to grow out.  

Not bad at all! I'm guessing your area saw about 26f and I would have thought that would do a lot more damage. Thanks for sharing!

Westchase | 9b 10a  ◆  Nokomis | 10a  ◆  St. Petersburg | 10a 10b 

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On 4/21/2017, 2:03:49, _Keith said:

I stand corrected.  Not in that alfredii is not a Zone 9a plant because it certainly is not a Zone 9a plant.  But it does appear I have 1 survivor.   To my astonishment one is throwing a spear.   Can't say for sure it'll make the summer, but it is not dead yet.

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Keith, did your B. alfredii survive?  I hope so!

Jon

Jon Sunder

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You can see the B. Alfredii has no frond burn on either tree here in St. Augustine, however, the Archontophoenix cunninghamiana has some minor frond burn.  The frond on the right is not burned it was on its way out before the freeze.  Just kept it on so I could tie the fronds up for some additional protection of the central bud.

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Lou St. Aug, FL

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No doubt lost the last one for sure.   Two killer freezes, plus snow.   Last freeze ultimate low of 17,  Coldest it has been here in 28 years.

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In my post I sometimes express "my" opinion. Warning, it may differ from "your" opinion. If so, please do not feel insulted, just state your own if you wish. Any data in this post is provided 'as is' and in no event shall I be liable for any damages, including, without limitation, damages resulting from accuracy or lack thereof, insult, or any other damages

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On 1/21/2018, 11:26:44, Kekoanui said:

I can't help but think there is a difference between 9A along the Gulf Coast and 9A Atlantic Coast.  These are definitely the coldest temps these palms have seen. Do these palms immediately show some damage and then slowly start to decline? They are completely unscathed!  Amazing plants regardless.

Is there? I do know that the Gulf Coast gets more winter rain, but not sure of any other differentiating factors.

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41 minutes ago, _Keith said:

No doubt lost the last one for sure.   Two killer freezes, plus snow.   Last free ultimate low of 17,  Coldest it has been here in 28 years.

Keith, you are one persevering guy. Sorry for the loss. And the cold.

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Bret

 

Coastal canyon area of San Diego

 

"In the shadow of the Cross"

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6 minutes ago, quaman58 said:

Keith, you are one persevering guy. Sorry for the loss. And the cold.

This has bee a tough decade freezes and water wise, as in far too much of each.  I'll continue to nurse along the many landscape plantings I have on these 3 acres, but I am turning my attention back to growing organic high quality food.  Haven't seen my Brix refractometer in years, but out it will come again.

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In my post I sometimes express "my" opinion. Warning, it may differ from "your" opinion. If so, please do not feel insulted, just state your own if you wish. Any data in this post is provided 'as is' and in no event shall I be liable for any damages, including, without limitation, damages resulting from accuracy or lack thereof, insult, or any other damages

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  • 2 months later...
On 1/28/2018, 9:13:59, Insomniac411 said:

Update on B.Alfredii,  we had a really nasty cold snap here in  northern Florida and I'm dealing with the aftermath. Lost my Royal Palm which was more my fault than the weather. We had 2 cold snaps for several days each down to the mid-upper 20s. Alfredii shows signs of cold burn, but appears to be healthy.  I'll just have to wait for it to grow out.  20180128_090256-747x1328.thumb.jpg.d1b57

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How are your trees doing now in April ??

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23 hours ago, Jason-Palm king said:

How are your trees doing now in April ??

It browned up and I couldn't look at it like that so I gave it a haircut. Basically cut the burnt edges. I have some nice green shoots coming though. 

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  • 4 weeks later...

So the general consensus re B. alfredii hardiness is:

It's a California 9A+ palm (lack of humidity gives it an edge.)

It's a Florida 9B+ palm.

 

 

 

 

 

5 year high 42.2C/108F (07/06/2018)--5 year low 4.6C/40.3F (1/19/2023)--Lowest recent/current winter: 4.6C/40.3F (1/19/2023)

 

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Late in the discussion from St. Augustine, FL. I am located in the center of Anastasia Island near the 2 miles south of the Bridge of Lyons and a little less than 1 mile from the ocean and the intercoastal.  

I’ve been experimenting with two in different areas of my yard and planted over 3 years ago as 3 gal plants. One is under irrigation and planted close to my house (see mages below). The other near the drip line of a tree without irrigation. 

We dropped to 27 degrees for two nights after no frost or freeze in prior years. The image is the larger of the two and over 7 feet tall with no freeze or frost damage and left uncovered. The non-irrigated palm is smaller but once again with no damage. 

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11 hours ago, GottmitAlex said:

So the general consensus re B. alfredii hardiness is:

It's a California 9A+ palm (lack of humidity gives it an edge.)

It's a Florida 9B+ palm.

 

 

 

 

 

I think this is about right, but remember a cold 9a is 20 degrees.  One of the things to remember here on palmtalk is that the local reported temp by posters (or thermometers not near the palm) may report a lower temp than the plant actually sees. Palms under overhead canopy can be 5 degrees warmer than out in the open if the wind is still and its a radiational event.  Also younger plants and plants without established roots are going to be more sensitive.  then there is genetic variability within the species.  Also greatly effecting cold tolerance is time at a cold temp before warming.  I saw royals survive 21 degrees in arizona in a radiational event that lasted just a few hours below 28F and it was dry. this doesnt mean royals are zone 9a palms in arizona. Also closeness to a heated structure(house, office building) can provide 2-5 degrees of warming.

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Formerly in Gilbert AZ, zone 9a/9b. Now in Palmetto, Florida Zone 9b/10a??

 

Tom Blank

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11 hours ago, Afpotic6 said:

Late in the discussion from St. Augustine, FL. I am located in the center of Anastasia Island  2 miles south of the Bridge of Lions and a little less than 1 mile from the ocean and the intercoastal.  

I’ve been experimenting with two in different areas of my yard and planted over 3 years ago as 3 gal plants. One is under irrigation and planted close to my house (see mages below). The other near the drip line of a tree without irrigation. 

We dropped to 27 degrees for two nights after no frost or freeze in prior years. The image is the larger of the two and over 7 feet tall with no freeze or frost damage and left uncovered. The non-irrigated palmis smaller but once again with no damage. 

F5F84BA0-744E-4600-971B-32F860A1D25F.jpeg

6F9B5753-6EE8-4896-9098-572CC4947C80.jpeg

 

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I agree with Tom. The reason for placing them in different areas of my yard was to test their hardiness based on location and exposure in my yard.

The 27 (26.4) degree temperature stated in my post for the larger B. alfredii off the corner of my house is accurate. Due to the composition of the hardy board siding, it is possible that some heat was retained from the previous day, but most likely was not a factor. The temperature remained in the upper 20’s for over 7 hours. At its coldest reading, winds dropped to less than 5 mph. By contrast, typically the temperature away from the house can be 1-2 degrees colder depending on tree canopy in the yard. 

I have found due to my location on Anastasia Island, our temps may be as much as 3-4 degrees warmer than just across the inter-coastal on the mainland and 6-8 miles north of St. Augustine. 

It was interesting to note that some detailed hardiness maps place the area along the coast at 9B (rather than 9A) due to Its proximity to the ocean which may expIain why I have noted several plants growing here as well as in Orlando which is a solid 9B. 

Maybe I should just admit that where I really want to live to grow more interesting tropical palms and plants is is in zone 10. 

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53 minutes ago, Afpotic6 said:

Maybe I should just admit that where I really want to live to grow more interesting tropical palms and plants is is in zone 10. 

Jawohl.

5 year high 42.2C/108F (07/06/2018)--5 year low 4.6C/40.3F (1/19/2023)--Lowest recent/current winter: 4.6C/40.3F (1/19/2023)

 

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Mine looked fine all winter after the freeze, not even any bronzing of the fronds,  still totally green.  But once spring came you can see the new growth was damaged but looks like they are going to grow out fine after the first damaged new frond of the year.

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Lou St. Aug, FL

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34 minutes ago, Lou-StAugFL said:

Mine looked fine all winter after the freeze, not even any bronzing of the fronds,  still totally green.  But once spring came you can see the new growth was damaged but looks like they are going to grow out fine after the first damaged new frond of the year.

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Mine did the exact same thing! Very weird to see the spear take some damage while the rest of the palm went unscathed for the most part. 

Westchase | 9b 10a  ◆  Nokomis | 10a  ◆  St. Petersburg | 10a 10b 

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I wonder if lots of water or heavy dew gravitated down and into the meristem, then froze, causing bud rot of the new developing fronds? I say this as the meristem is one of the more insulated parts of the palm, in terms of exposure to the cold air, and one would think would be the last part of the palm to see cold damage.

Any palm that I ever had with bud rot damage always had the palm fronds browned and severely damaged. In any case, I think the palm should grow out of its condition.

On the other hand, I've had palms (mainly zone 10+ species, like majesty, coconut, etc.) that were severely cold damaged, and they never grew normally after that. They grew new fronds, but at a rate 1/4 or less than their normal growth output. Some hung on for several years, but finally croaked.

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Mad about palms

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According to Ornamental Palm Horticulture, fig. 3.1., the cold resistance varies a lot in Trachycarpus fortunei, the most tender part being the spear zone just above the meristem, and the meristem itself being much cold hardier.  So the damage on the new leaf emerging was the spear hit by the cold and not the meristem.

I also doubt that any liquid can reach the meristem zone that is very tightly filled with the new leaves and the spear.

My personal conviction, would be interested in other opinions.

Tomas

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  • 2 months later...

Does this kind can grow in Mediterranean coast of Turkey? Is it suitable for Mediterranean climate?

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Yes you can grow it in mediteranean climate. The problem will be the frost in winter. If you can grow howea try beccariophoenix alfredii.

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07690.gif

elevation 328 feet

distance from mediteranean sea 1,1 mile

lowest t° 2009/2010 : 27F

lowest t° 2008/2009 : 33F

lowest t° 2007/2008 : 32F

lowest t° 2006/2007 : 35F

lowest t° 2005/2006 : 27F

lowest t° 2004/2005 : 25F

Historical lowest t° 1985 : 18F

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  • 4 weeks later...

While outside today figured I'd add an updated photo. Nice new spears growing but as far as I'm concerned, this tree is growing super slow. Putting out maybe 2 new spears since I planted it over a year ago.

20180805_150405.jpg

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1 hour ago, Insomniac411 said:

While outside today figured I'd add an updated photo. Nice new spears growing but as far as I'm concerned, this tree is growing super slow. Putting out maybe 2 new spears since I planted it over a year ago.

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It looks healthy though. I planted this one in March and its pushing out its 4th spear. Its smaller but I would think that would mean slower growth from what I understand of them. 

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One of my favorite palms!

Mi tres amigos took 25 F one night in 2013 January.

Not a scratch!

Let's keep our forum fun and friendly.

Any data in this post is provided 'as is' and in no event shall I be liable for any damages, including, without limitation, damages resulting from accuracy or lack thereof, insult, or lost profits or revenue, claims by third parties or for other similar costs, or any special, incidental, or consequential damages arising out of my opinion or the use of this data. The accuracy or reliability of the data is not guaranteed or warranted in any way and I disclaim liability of any kind whatsoever, including, without limitation, liability for quality, performance, merchantability and fitness for a particular purpose arising out of the use, or inability to use my data. Other terms may apply.

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On 8/5/2018, 2:01:22, Insomniac411 said:

While outside today figured I'd add an updated photo. Nice new spears growing but as far as I'm concerned, this tree is growing super slow. Putting out maybe 2 new spears since I planted it over a year ago.

20180805_150405.jpg

A very nice specimen

Yes, the B. alfredii book is still being penned. It is a recently discovered species. In these past 15 years, no alfredii outside of habitat has produced any seed.

It may just take 20+ years for this to happen. Who knows. However, its striking resemblance to the Cocos nucifera is remarkable. And they're 5C hardier than cocos. Hence their appeal. Yours is growing beautifully.

:greenthumb:

 

 

 

 

5 year high 42.2C/108F (07/06/2018)--5 year low 4.6C/40.3F (1/19/2023)--Lowest recent/current winter: 4.6C/40.3F (1/19/2023)

 

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Seeing how many are planted in part shade, Im not surprisedsome people think they are slow.  they are much slower in shade.  Herre are two palms that were planted at the same time as 3 gallon sized plants in august 2011.  the first was in mostly shade till last year when I cut out overhead canopy, its about 11' overall.  The second was put in full sun is about 20' overall and holds more than twice the leaves inn the crown and the base is about 2x as thick.  So yes, in shade they are slow, but in full sun they are about 3/4 the speed of bismarckia.  I have a third in part shade and its a few feet taller than the small one that was planted in mostly shade.  If you want it to be faster, plant in full sun.

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Formerly in Gilbert AZ, zone 9a/9b. Now in Palmetto, Florida Zone 9b/10a??

 

Tom Blank

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Seeing how many are planted in part shade, Im not surprised some people think they are slow.  they are much slower in shade.  Herre are two palms that were planted at the same time as 3 gallon sized plants in august 2010.  the first was in mostly shade till last year when I cut out overhead canopy, its about 11' overall.  The second was put in full sun is about 20' overall and holds more than twice the leaves inn the crown and the base is about 2x as thick.  So yes, in shade they are slow, but in full sun they are about 3/4 the speed of bismarckia.  I have a third in part shade and its a few feet taller than the small one that was planted in mostly shade.  If you want it to be faster, plant in full sun.

Formerly in Gilbert AZ, zone 9a/9b. Now in Palmetto, Florida Zone 9b/10a??

 

Tom Blank

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  • 5 months later...

Here's an update on mine. We hit 28 last month and no damage once again. I really do think once these get larger they can handle heat and frost much better. At the moment this one is fully exposed and took 110 degree heat without an issue last summer. Definitely one of my favorite palms in my garden. 

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19 hours ago, Chris Chance said:

Here's an update on mine. We hit 28 last month and no damage once again. I really do think once these get larger they can handle heat and frost much better. At the moment this one is fully exposed and took 110 degree heat without an issue last summer. Definitely one of my favorite palms in my garden. 

20190110_144419.jpg

beautiful!

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  • 2 weeks later...
On ‎3‎/‎20‎/‎2017 at 3:32 PM, sonoranfans said:

Just to clarify, I never heard anyone report that frost plus above freezing temps caused damage, mine had no problem with that.  It was a long sub 28-30 degree with frost that caused the defoliation.  34 degrees and frost shouldnt be an issue for this palm.  And once the get some size I havent heart of what the cold tolerance would be.  Years ago this discussion( with different people) was pretty long and some conclusions were that.

1) its a 9B palm

2) hard frosts of any length(below freezing) could be a problem with defoliation and in a few colder cases, death.

3) there may be different genetic groups in play with respect to BA cold tolerance, some believed the "purple stem" variety to be more cold tolerant.  Not sure where that ended up.

4) they dont like being wet in the roots when its cold, you dont plant this palm next to and in the same soil mix as an archrontophoenix if you want best results.  Its one of my most dry tolerant feather palms(based on irrigation failures which coincided with dry spells of 30-60 days).

5)  they are not nutrient pigs, no obvious nutrient sensitivities like kentiopsis O, phoenix rupicola, teddy bears which are somewhat sensitive to Fe Mg/CA

6) when mature, BA is a BIG palm, its a beast before it trunks and of course likely after.  I placed mine too close to another palm(9') and had to remove it.   The palm in this pic was almost completely deoliated in dec 2010 as a small 3 gallon size pinnate palm.

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Is there in fact a purple stem variety that might be more hardy, similar to Livistona saribus green petiole being hardier than the red one? Somebody please verify. This would be worth finding out if it means 2 varieties to choose from.

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  • 8 months later...

Can this palm take windy day? I hear it can, where most palms suffer brown leafs, this one, stays green.     I have just got a small 3 leaf one.  Maybe next year, plant it outside.  Our winter lows, never under 50f, but always very very windy.  North east Wind, does cause some palms, to brown leaf.

 

 

Beccariophoenix alfredii.jpg

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They Say

 

SOIL.
Madagascar Coconut Palms enjoy well drained but moist, rich organic mix. Remember try to stay away from wet, mucky or arid soils.

Does this mean, no sandy soil mix ?  We are in Fuerteventura, Canary Islands. Red Volcanic type soil.  Zone 12b but very, very windy, always. winter lows at night, 50f max

FERTILIZER.
To help establish your new Madagascar Coconut Palm, fertilize sparingly at least 6 inches away from the base, tri-annually with a slow time released product. Unfertilized they will tend to grow at a slower pace. Note: The heavy salts in cheaper fertilizers will damage the roots and possibly kill the tree. Its best to use a brand you know and trust.

GROW ZONE & LIGHT.
Best outdoors if grown in zone 9b-11,  This Palm requires 80-100% sunlight. Depending on your location full sun is often best

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I think Red Volcanic type soil is very dry and Arid.  Will need soil amending .  Picon black stones ( Volcanic), is how people mulch there plants here ?

 

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The black stuff is called Picón, although we’ll lose the accent now, as people probably won’t search for the information with it! Picon is volcanic ash from the eruptions here in the 18th and 19th centuries. You’ll find it everywhere around volcanoes here. Most commonly, it’s black, but you can get a red version from areas like Montaña Roja in Playa Blanca.

Why is Picon used when growing stuff?

Putting a layer of picón on the soil when planting has several benefits:

 

It prevents soil erosion

With our incredibly dry climate and steady breezes, soil very quickly turns to dust here, and is then blown away! The weight of the Picon prevents this happening.

It acts as a weed barrier

A healthy layer of Picon stops weeds poking through, and makes it easy to spot and pull them out before they get established.

It helps keep moisture in the soil

Simply having a layer on top of the soil reduces it’s direct exposure to the sun, so prevents it from drying out.

It absorbs moisture from the air

This is the really clever part! As the tiny stones warm during the day and cool at night, they draw in what little moisture there is in the air, filtering down to the plant and soil underneath.

You’ll see Picon everywhere on the island where things are being grown. It’s a very clever adaptation of a naturally occurring substance that has meant we can grow so much here, despite having only 150MM of rain a year – comparable with the nearby Sahara Desert.

Picon.jpg

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It absorbs moisture from the air

This is the really clever part! As the tiny stones warm during the day and cool at night, they draw in what little moisture there is in the air, filtering down to the plant and soil underneath.

You’ll see picon everywhere on the island where things are being grown. It’s a very clever adaptation of a naturally occurring substance that has meant we can grow so much here, despite having only 150MM of rain a year – comparable with the nearby Sahara Desert.

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I have 5 Beccariophoenix Alfredii in the ground, ranging from 6 to 10' overall height.  They have taken tropical depression force winds (30-40mph gusts) pretty well.  I had one fall over when Hurricane Dorian went up the East coast of Florida.  It turns out there was a pinhole in my dripline that was washing all the dirt away from directly under the root initiation zone.  So it really had no support for the trunk.  The other 4 were undamaged.  Other ones 20-30 feet tall at a local nursery (MB Palms) survived several hurricanes with up to Category 1 winds (75-95mph) with no obvious problems.

I'm not sure how that correlates to drying winds in the Canary Islands, but I think people have been successful with this species in California's dry winds.

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