IMPORTANT --- POLICY RE: DELETING OLD TOPICS/POSTS

[PALM MOD]

This was briefly eluded to several times in the past, but needs to be officially discussed and enacted soon.

It should be obvious that we can not keep every single post forever. There are several reasons this is impractical, as well as problematic. I am proposing a policy, and would appreciate some feedback.

I am proposing that we delete every topic that has not been "added to" in 6 months, with the exception being the Palapa where topics would be deleted after 3 months of inaction. This would allow anyone who really likes a topic, and would like to see it kept alive, plenty of time to "bump it" (save it) before it's deadline arrived.

This policy would be the easiest for me because I could then delete according to a date, rather than filtering every single post one at a time and rendering an "executive decision" on whether to keep it or not.

What are your thoughts?

[Shon]

I think many could be deleted,but there are several that should stay. For example Phils Ravenea post and the many Dypsis discussions.I find myself going back to those using the search function, looking for info. Some on the travel log section are nice to go back to. The recent thread on mulching is one that should not be deleted  after six months either. I know it would be hard but there are those that should remain for a long while.There are more that should not stay,like the ones with zero to five replies. Just my opinion Dean you always  have the boards best intrest at heart.

[PALM MOD]

Good points Shon, and I agree. I wish there was a way to permanently save a particular topic. I'll check into it, there may be and I just don't know about it.

But I have to have a way other than manually weeding through every single topic one be one (we have close to 5,000), and then just using my discression (or remembering what you all want to save) and deciding what stays. I will undoubtably erase someone's favorite using that method. At least using what I have proposed, when you have gone back to an old topic you like for reference, and notice it is close to the 6 month deadline, you could just "bump" it (just type 'save'), and it would be safe for another 6 months. That way the members decide what is worth saving.

[Carlo Morici]

More food for thought:

- People use the old topics by finding them through the search option and new visits don't bumb up old threads. What about deleting threads that have not been visited for long?

- Is deleting forever? Maybe the IPS can keep a hard copy of the deleted topics, to be kept offline. but rescuable in case of need. Never throw away anything.

- Maybe you can fix an option such as an automatic message to the topic starter: "The topic you started has not been updated during the past five months. Next month it will be deleted. Bump it, copy it to your hard disk or ..."

Carlo

[Mike4284m]

I've never known a forum to delete old posts like that.  It would be tough to convince people to use the search function before starting a new topic if they could only pull up threads from the past six months.  It would be a shame to lose valuable information if a topic lies dormant for awile.  You may also run into issues with contests like the photo one that was done not too long ago.

[PALM MOD]

Thanks for the suggestions Carlo.

#1 - "People use the old topics by finding them through the search option and new visits don't bump up old threads. What about deleting threads that have not been visited for long?"

---I thought of that, but I am unaware of a way to know when a thread is simply visited. I will research that. However, that would still not alleviate the need to individually visit what will amount to 10,000 threads per year and growing.  And if possible, when would that be done, how often, once a month, every 6 monthd, every year?

#2 - "Is deleting forever? Maybe the IPS can keep a hard copy of the deleted topics, to be kept offline. but rescuable in case of need. Never throw away anything."

---Deleting would be forever. That is why I want to give this a lot of thought. I am not sure if I can transfer all the files before a particular date to a storage file somewhere. I will check. However, I believe if it is possilble it may be useless if it is just a massive data file that is unsearchable or out of the forum format. I am thinking more about the amount of unused topics we will have in 5 years, or how about 10 if we don't do something. It will begin to hamper the search function, and cause other burdens on this unsofisticated software. I have seen people's property who never throw anything away and just store it.  They have a lot of stuff, but they can never get to it.

#3 - Maybe you can fix an option such as an automatic message to the topic starter: "The topic you started has not been updated during the past five months. Next month it will be deleted. Bump it, copy it to your hard disk or ..."

--- There are no possiblities for "fancy" options such as those. I wish there were, but this software is bare bones, very basic software with very few ways to manipulate things like that. Besides, it should not be up to the topic starter to decide if their topic is worth saving. They would all be saved.  And I wouldn't want to get notices about every single topic I have started anyway. That is why I suggested having members deciding if a topic is worth saving. It would just take one member posting "save" and the topic remains for what ever time we agree on.

 This is great food for thought, please keep it coming.

[PALM MOD]

(Mike4284m @ Apr. 29 2007,14:27)

QUOTE

I've never known a forum to delete old posts like that.  It would be tough to convince people to use the search function before starting a new topic if they could only pull up threads from the past six months.  It would be a shame to lose valuable information if a topic lies dormant for awile.  You may also run into issues with contests like the photo one that was done not too long ago.

All forum software has purge features that can be set up to run automatically. You may not notice it, but it happens. Members that don't visit anymore are pruned, along with older topics.

Try to understand the main reason I am bringing this up for discussion is I am the last person that wants to delete valuable information. But I am the first person to want to get rid of worthless information. And I am sure we all agree there is a lot of worthless, but enjoyable, info here.

There is a cost issue with storying years of data for a photo intensive forum such as this, but the main issue is one of excess data affecting the way the Forum operates. The old forum crashed in part because it exceeded the limits for replies to topics. Most forums have a few dozen replies to a topic and it goes away. We have over a thousand replies to some topics. Older forum software is not designed for that.

Another very important issue is as follows --- a lot of older posts will begin to loose the photos that have been posted. Any photo that has been hosted will disappear if that person changes their hosting company, or cleans out their photo albums. So we will have threads which seem worth keeping but half of the photos that were posted are missing.

You guys are bringing up great points. Keep it coming.

[Mike4284m]

Is there a way to archive a no frills version of old topics?  By no frills I mean just plain b&w text with no added features like buttons, framing, etc.  That way the information is still there in a condensed form, even if the topics can't be added to.

[PALM MOD]

Mike, think of it like this. For the sake of this discussion, all of this data is in a form that only this forum software can "look at." So I can have all the data on a disk somewhere, but it does nobody any good unless it is placed back into all the proper directories of this particular software (no small task). Everything that places the posts in the right categories, ties the pics to a post, etc. is all in a specialized data base tied to this version of this software. So, for example, I may (I stress 'may') be able to save all the older posts and pics, but they wouldn't be in any catagories (threads) or any sub-forums, or searchable by date, topic, member, etc. They would be in no order, and all of the pics would be in another file, also in no order.

Apart from that very important concept --- why would we want to archive and store Happy Birthday threads, how was the weather two years ago, what song are you listening to, etc. I like seeing chapter meetings, but really, how many people will be viewing last years meeting five years from now. In other words (IMO) half of the info here isn't worth saving more than a year. But half (also IMO) is extremely useful info worth saving forever.

Again, if one person wants it saved he could easily do so. Maybe we save threads for a year (instead of 6 months) after the last response. That way one person typing 4 letters (save) once a year would save a topic indefinitely, even if nobody added anything else to it for a year.

If everyone wants everything saved forever, I think we could create archives every year. But then the forum would essentially start anew each year. But you could always go back and search year by year. Sounds cumbersome to me though.

And that doesn't address the problem we will have of old posts still having their pics disappear and becoming useless.

[www.dadluvsu.com]

I don't like the idea of throwing any of them away!  As a newcomer, I found myself doing numerous searches through really old threads to find information that was no longer being discussed.  I didn;t wanna be the newbie who has to ask all the basic questions about soil, germ times, how to clean a seed, etc.  How much computer space does it require to save the threads?  Is it a probelm as simple as buying a monster harddrive?

[PALM MOD]

(PiousPalms @ Apr. 29 2007,18:06)

QUOTE

I don't like the idea of throwing any of them away!  As a newcomer, I found myself doing numerous searches through really old threads to find information that was no longer being discussed.  I didn;t wanna be the newbie who has to ask all the basic questions about soil, germ times, how to clean a seed, etc.  How much computer space does it require to save the threads?  Is it a probelm as simple as buying a monster harddrive?

William,

I already have tried to explain this above.

Quote, "There is a cost issue with storing years of data for a photo intensive forum such as this, but the main issue is one of excess data affecting the way the Forum operates. The old forum crashed in part because it exceeded the limits for replies to topics. Most forums have a few dozen replies to a topic and it goes away. We have over a thousand replies to some topics. Older forum software is not designed for that."

So yes we would need a monster hard drive on the server, but there are other technical issues and limitations to this software. You weren't around during the crash. But we lost 95% of everything, and what was saved was due to hundreds of hours of work by RLR.

So in our zeal to save everything, we could sow the seeds to eventually loose it all.

[Tad]

delete away dean, there will be a plethera of info for newcomers in the stuff that has not been deleted, the newcomers ask questions and keep everybody contributing. It will be a positive influence on this board. If a thread proves to be save worthy then it can be housed in a special golden thread room! however it works out, no complaints from me.

[wendisplantation]

(palmotrafficante @ Apr. 30 2007,00:29)

QUOTE

If a thread proves to be save worthy then it can be housed in a special golden thread room! however it works out, no complaints from me.

This is a good idea

[Mike4284m]

(IPSPTModerator @ Apr. 29 2007,22:58)

QUOTE

Mike, think of it like this. For the sake of this discussion, all of this data is in a form that only this forum software can "look at." So I can have all the data on a disk somewhere, but it does nobody any good unless it is placed back into all the proper directories of this particular software (no small task). Everything that places the posts in the right categories, ties the pics to a post, etc. is all in a specialized data base tied to this version of this software. So, for example, I may (I stress 'may') be able to save all the older posts and pics, but they wouldn't be in any catagories (threads) or any sub-forums, or searchable by date, topic, member, etc. They would be in no order, and all of the pics would be in another file, also in no order.

Apart from that very important concept --- why would we want to archive and store Happy Birthday threads, how was the weather two years ago, what song are you listening to, etc. I like seeing chapter meetings, but really, how many people will be viewing last years meeting five years from now. In other words (IMO) half of the info here isn't worth saving more than a year. But half (also IMO) is extremely useful info worth saving forever.

Again, if one person wants it saved he could easily do so. Maybe we save threads for a year (instead of 6 months) after the last response. That way one person typing 4 letters (save) once a year would save a topic indefinitely, even if nobody added anything else to it for a year.

If everyone wants everything saved forever, I think we could create archives every year. But then the forum would essentially start anew each year. But you could always go back and search year by year. Sounds cumbersome to me though.

And that doesn't address the problem we will have of old posts still having their pics disappear and becoming useless.

I understand where you are coming from.  I agree that most threads are not worth saving.  I just can't see an easy way of distinguishing good from bad.

Plus I come from a family of pack rats, we save EVERYTHING!  

[BS Man about Palms]

Dean-

I would trust your discretion as to "research worthy" or not. Or save any thread more than 1 page that might have research/photos.  I for one, WOULD like to go back and see how much a palm has grown in 5 years or so.  (Yeah, I know, its just the growth you guys get in 18 months in Hawaii )

OR: (maybe also) if you have any questionable threads to save post them in a "new department",  "the 1 week to save" area.   Post the intent of that area that it is to purge superflous posts and only bump if one thinks its REALLY worthy.

Bill

[PALM MOD]

Bill,

I think you (and possibly others) are still missing an important point.

I can not review every single thread one by one and decide if it's worth keeping. There are way too many. And besides, what I may think is a waste, others may find valuable. So any method that requires dealing with every single thread individually, and then rendering a decision on whether to keep it, is not a one man job. And this is not a one time event, it is ongoing.

That is why I am proposing that you (the members) do it. If you want to keep it, just "save" it every six months, or year, or whatever we agree on. Then I could just delete every thread before a certain date periodically. That would be managable.

[Kathryn]

When I discover a topic with useful information, I copy the text and paste it into a word document. There was a great discussion a couple of years ago about root pruning a palm in preparation for transplanting. I didn’t have any need for it then, but may in the future, so I saved it.

[www.dadluvsu.com]

(Now that I have actually read all of this thread )

I'm in agreement with Tad (palmotrafficante), and whatever happens we'll cope and deal with...  I'm sure your gonna catch flack no matter how you do it.  You can't please everyone when you make a decision that affects people.  That being said...

Delete topics after 6 months of inactivity unless they have more than (pick a number here) 2 or more pages of response.  I realize thats a bit of work for you as there are over 5 pages of threads with 2 or more pages of response.  It seems that topics that receive that much attention are noteworthy.  Maybe you could give them the "3 strikes your out" treatment.  Bump #1 for six months, Bump #2 for the next six months and if it comes back around untouched thats the third strike and you let it be deleted.  Perhaps this could just be a weekly responsibility/routine or something.  Scan through the post that are getting ready to expire and look for the larger ones.  I don't know how cumbersome this would be...  

(edit: Oh yeah and polls and palapa chats get deleted after 6 months of inactivity, no bumping...  certainly we should keep cold weather data indefinately)

Hopefully a bit more helpful this time!   :cool:

[Bilbo]

Nice fish Kate!

Looks like you took that on light tackle - I bet it went some!

Regardez

Bilbo

(Juan)

[BS Man about Palms]

Yep- I agree that we need to keep the cold info indefinately!

[paulgila]

personally i don't think its a big deal to lose the old threads.the dead fronds need to be trimmed off occasionally. ::

[MattyB]

I have seen people's property who never throw anything away and just store it.  They have a lot of stuff, but they can never get to it.

Sounds like my wifes crap.  She dosen't even know half the stuff she has......ahhhh but I digress...  

I think Kathyrn had a good point:  If you really want some information, print it out and save it yourself.  There's always gonna be new info and old info being thrown into the churning pot that is our forum.  It's just the nature of a forum.  It's an everchanging, moving animal, not a permanent archive of facts.  I think the Palapa & Seeds/Plants for Sale, should be auto-purged every six

months and the Main Forum and Travel Logs every year.

[Jeff Searle]

I'm keeping my head buried in the pots with my palms, whatever you computer geeks decide, is OK by me.

Jeff

[Zac in NC]

What about the cold tolerance part from the Big California Freeze. That is a lot of space. Is it possible to transfer that data to the other forum, as I know you can still search the archives. I think the travel logs section has lots of good info and pics in it, I know some I have done with my Mexico trips are save worthy, and I don't plan on moving to a new photohost anytime soon, if ever and I am surely not going to delete those files from my photobucket account. I do think a lot of the threads in the palapa could be deleted.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Zac

[mike453]

Dean,

I say do what needs to be done in order to keep the forum operating smoothly. It would suck to have the forum go down again. As long as we know what is being done, it is easy enough to save what we want on CD/DVD/hard drive. As long as we are aware of how long we have before they are deleted, it is something I can live with.

                                  Mike

[Shon]

Jeff is right whatever you decide Dean is alright with me.Many threads tend to repeat themselves.Especially with the influx of new people not knowing we had this or  that thread on the old board or on this one.Kathryn also has a good point if you want to save something save it yourself. The last thing anyone wants is this thing going down again.There is plenty of fat to trim.

[rubyz]

(BS, Man about Palms @ Apr. 30 2007,17:11)

QUOTE

Yep- I agree that we need to keep the cold info indefinately!

So why not info pertaining to warmer climates?

This is the kind of favoritism that needs to be avoided!

Either everything should be saved, or deletions should be carried out according to the plan above, which is fair and surely the lesser of evils. I wouldn't want to see this Forum turn into something like the EPS Forum, where 99% of the posts deal with five or so frost-hardy palms.

[PALM MOD]

Rueven,

I think they were referring to the special forum on freeze data, not info on cold hardy palms in general. There are many threads in that forum that will not be added to anymore at all (so potentially subject to deletion). Yet there is some very valuable cold hardy info contained therein.

So, I agree that needs to be saved. Don't worry, there will be no favoritism given to any climate here. We are all in this together, and who knows where you will be living tomorrow?

[BS Man about Palms]

Yep, freeze data should be saved, thats what I meant.  Also, if someone is up to that is a computer person, (if this is what I interpreted above), maybe if one could show me how to save a thread to a CD, I'd be happy to make my own library.  Anybody know how?  ???

[bgl]

Dean,

I've given this some thought, and I think most of us probably have a general reluctance to lose data, because you just never know....! However, I wonder how many of us actually go back and look at older threads? I've done this maybe a handful of times over the last several months (typically using the search function), but I'm fairly certain the threads I was looking for were all less than 6 months old. When I first joined the old IPS Forum in March 2006 I did go back and looked at threads as far as back as Jan. 2006 (i.e. only a little more than two months old).

My guess is that VERY few Forum members actually go back more than 6 months in time to look for something.

Maybe a poll would be in order...?

Bo-Göran

[PALM MOD]

Bo,

I pretty much thought the same thing. And I bet very few ever go back into the archived forum for a search, or even know about it. That is why I think archiving the info is not a good idea.

A major concern I have is with keeping junk, is that I don't think the search feature in these forum softwares is all that great. We are used to very sophisticated search engines these days, and this is not one of them. The more junk that it has to search through makes it just that much more ineffective. I have tried searching for a certain topic before, and just got a list of everything but the one I was looking for.

[paulgila]

i for one don't think i have EVER searched an old thread (unless mattyb forced me,that is).

[aussiearoids]

YES search function can be hard to use ! I was trying to find a post re. sun hardy Cham's , and could not find it , until I searched for a particular members posts who I know posted in that thread and does not post often , thus I found it and copied info.

Dean , just delete as needed , it has to be done .

[Hollywood Palms]

One Suggestion:

One the Banana board, they have started a Wiki using the free wiki software to create a depository of the "best of" using the wiki format. This could be a great online resource and free up some space. Only thing is that it would take more volunteers to maintain.

You can see i t here: Banana wiki

Thanks,

David

[Kim]

I have used the search function many times, both in the archive, and here.  It can be fruitless sometimes, so many posts come up, I really do have to narrow it down with a member name.  And as already mentioned, it can be a major disappointment when the photo you seek is gone leaving only the red 'x'.

BS, the 'print' function also works for a low-tech method to save some information you want.

I like the 'wiki' idea, but it requires some effort.  Would be worthwhile I think, more efficient than a search.

Six months initially seemed a bit short to me, but when I think about it, valuable posts tend to be resurrected and would naturally linger while the superficial stuff would drop off.  Seems like a good plan.  And if it turns out not to be a good plan, you could always revisit the idea.

[iwan]

(bgl @ Apr. 30 2007,20:14)

QUOTE

Dean,

I've given this some thought, and I think most of us probably have a general reluctance to lose data, because you just never know....! However, I wonder how many of us actually go back and look at older threads? I've done this maybe a handful of times over the last several months (typically using the search function), but I'm fairly certain the threads I was looking for were all less than 6 months old. When I first joined the old IPS Forum in March 2006 I did go back and looked at threads as far as back as Jan. 2006 (i.e. only a little more than two months old).

My guess is that VERY few Forum members actually go back more than 6 months in time to look for something.

Maybe a poll would be in order...?

Bo-Göran

I pull up old threads all the time and have probably hundreds of treads bookmarked.  Don't forget that a lot of us found this forum through external search engines.  If too many of those links are dead, people will pass this forum by.

As much as it would hurt our less computer literate members, the quickest way to curtail the storage needs of this board is to only allow external hosting for pictures.  The forum hosted pictures are small, a pain to get to a usable size, lead to multiple posts as only one picture per post is allowed.

Numerous free picture hosting options exist and there are several threads on this board with tutorials on how to use them.  I think this is a much better option than wholesale purging of messages older than X-months.

[rubyz]

(IPSPTModerator @ May 01 2007,03:36)

QUOTE

Rueven,

Don't worry, there will be no favoritism given to any climate here. We are all in this together, and who knows where you will be living tomorrow?

If you ask my wife, the next climate I'll be experiencing will be an awful lot hotter than where I am now!

[PALM MOD]

(blonddude @ Apr. 30 2007,19:36)

QUOTE

One Suggestion:

One the Banana board, they have started a Wiki using the free wiki software to create a depository of the "best of" using the wiki format. This could be a great online resource and free up some space. Only thing is that it would take more volunteers to maintain.

You can see i t here: Banana wiki

Thanks,

David

David,

Funny you should mention that. For the last 2 weeks, I have been personally developing a palm intensive wiki that I will unveil soon.

[PALM MOD]

(iwan @ Apr. 30 2007,21:06)

QUOTE

As much as it would hurt our less computer literate members, the quickest way to curtail the storage needs of this board is to only allow external hosting for pictures.  The forum hosted pictures are small, a pain to get to a usable size, lead to multiple posts as only one picture per post is allowed.

Numerous free picture hosting options exist and there are several threads on this board with tutorials on how to use them.  I think this is a much better option than wholesale purging of messages older than X-months.

David,

Perhaps I have I not made this clear enough? You mentioned "wholesale purging of messages older than X-months." This is not the proposal. I am suggesting purging those topics that have had no activity (posts) for X-months. That is a totally different proposition.

As mentioned in my previous posts, while hosted pics are much nicer, over time they represent a major problem when the links to those images are broken for any number of reasons.

It is not the storage space that is really the issue. It is the number of threads, and replies. And the considerable number of those that are of no value.

No one seems to be acknowledging the simple method available to any member to save any thread for as long as they wish. Just type "save" and bump it and it won't get deleted. This would also bring a worthwhile topic back to the top for some possible new discussion. Surely if a thread is worth keeping, one of the hundreds of members could see that this gets done.

[palmmermaid]

While I work on computers all day in the real world, I seldom find a search feature helpful - even the help files.  If I have a question, I am not afraid or too timid to just post the question.  And I would certainly never use the archives.  I don't use the archives provided with my work email.  If I want to save anything, I do as Kathryn does.  I either save it on my PC or I print it.  I find that much easier than trying to figure out someone else's filing system!

My vote is to purge everything not accessed in 6 months.  What happens when the software is not longer supported?  Will it run under Vista?  How much spave is teh ISP willing to let us hog?  If all an old post has of any meaning is a photo and the poster deletes the photo or the hosting site goes away, what good is the post?  But then I am not a packrat.  I seldom have more than 500 emails in my work account and never more than 10 in my personal.  I read one, act on it, and delete it.  If I think I will need it, I save or print that part and move on.  Otherwise there is just too much junk to go through.

Kitty